[BEAST MASTERY]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Thursley]

Aye but it does indicate that theres nothing to put on the traits. BM has 3 abilities and even if you give em 2 traits apiece its not enough to fill out an artifact tree.

Plus the Hati trait is just downright busted. ALL other dps classes get a flat 10% boost. And we're stuck with however much 10% of way less than half your damage is,

Not having enough interesting abilities makes sense as a valid concern, but like I said a very different one from tuning.

As for the Hati trait it only seems bad if you look at it in a vacuum. Imagine this scenario: BM hunters versus some other spec with strong traits (let's say fire mage for the sake of simplicity, and just assume they have MUCH stronger traits whether it's true or not). If both specs had NO artifact traits leveled at all, the BM hunter does 300k DPS and the mage does 250k. That's a silly way to look at it of course, because why would you try to compare the specs without traits that they'll obviously both have access to? But that's the same thing you're doing when you talk about ONLY the artifact traits being unfair and ignoring everything else. Add in artifact traits to the hunter and mage kits now, and the mage makes up ground because his are stronger, so you both end up at say 350k. Does it really matter that he gets a larger percent of his damage from artifact traits while you get yours from base abilities or talents?

Obviously that's over simplified in a lot of ways, but the basic idea is that for the most part it doesn't really matter that much where your damage comes from as long as it's balanced overall.

[Ifritlol]

It does not matter how much % of your damage you get from artifact as long as they fully upgraded. I am talking about progression. Blizz said that to fully upgrade artifact you'll need 1 to 3 months (actual time can be changed). And you can see that different classes have different traits (%damage wise).

[Thursley]

That's true, I guess we'll have to wait and see how long it actually takes. That said, based on blizzard's historical trends it seems likely to me that a dedicated raider will be able to max it out by the time raids open, or at least have all the most valuable traits. And anyway if it does take longer, a system like that is advantageous for a spec that relies less on traits for their damage, so if anything it's better for BM in this case.

[BreakerOfWills]

Not having enough interesting abilities makes sense as a valid concern, but like I said a very different one from tuning.

As for the Hati trait it only seems bad if you look at it in a vacuum. Imagine this scenario: BM hunters versus some other spec with strong traits (let's say fire mage for the sake of simplicity, and just assume they have MUCH stronger traits whether it's true or not). If both specs had NO artifact traits leveled at all, the BM hunter does 300k DPS and the mage does 250k. That's a silly way to look at it of course, because why would you try to compare the specs without traits that they'll obviously both have access to? But that's the same thing you're doing when you talk about ONLY the artifact traits being unfair and ignoring everything else. Add in artifact traits to the hunter and mage kits now, and the mage makes up ground because his are stronger, so you both end up at say 350k. Does it really matter that he gets a larger percent of his damage from artifact traits while you get yours from base abilities or talents?

Obviously that's over simplified in a lot of ways, but the basic idea is that for the most part it doesn't really matter that much where your damage comes from as long as it's balanced overall.

That's assuming they balance it. But by and large it seems like they've left BM broken because its popularity historically hasnt been tied to its performance DPS wise. Unfortunately this becomes a bigger issue as the artifact weapon represents a far larger investment into a spec, which means the current state of things is no longer ok.

A simplification of BM, an artifact full of redundant or out of character talents (see other pet classes for a comparison) all indicates taht combat effectiveness is not on their list of goals for the spec. Not that it will excel because it relies on its artifact less.

They havent earned this benefit of the doubt for BM the way they have for other classes, especially with head devs publicly broadcasting their lack of information/lack of understanding about the class.

[Thursley]

First of all, I'd hardly say blizzard has "left BM broken." It's been no worse than a perfectly serviceable spec for the vast majority of both WOD and MOP at the very least, and often situationally a top performer. Just because it's not always the best doesn't make it broken.

Second, combat effectiveness is certainly on their list of goals for the spec. I'd go as far to say it's a fairly obvious priority for EVERY spec at the start of an expansion. If you think blizzard just won't do a good job of balancing through sheer incompetence there's no point debating that, we'll have to wait and see I guess, but that's a very different argument.

Beyond that, I just don't see how a lower number of DPS-focused artifact traits can be used as evidence of a lack of commitment to making the spec competitive. What would be their motivation for intentionally undertuning a spec like that? Admittedly it can happen, as blizzard's failure to make survival even remotely competitive in HFC seems like a case of them cutting their loses on a spec they knew wasn't going to last much longer, but that's a different situation. HFC Survival IS a broken spec, but for a reason (easing the transition to a totally different, melee spec). Beast Mastery hasn't been nearly that weak in a long time, and as far as I can tell I don't see any indication that it will be in Legion.

Basically if you think the spec is underperforming, give that feedback and provide evidence for blizzard. Comparing the number of artifact traits that buff damage instead of utility to other specs isn't evidence.

[Keyimin]

Breaker's critique of the artifact may have been "inartfully" described as it relates to tuning issues, but the spirit of the complaint, as I see it, is this: Legion BM's rotation, in its current iteration, is underwhelming at best and broken at worst. And then the artifact, which is equally underwhelming with few exceptions, just adds insult to injury when compared to virtually all other specs.

In fact, I'd argue that the artifact's failings are directly linked to the core gameplay failings. So, there really isn't any tuning that is going to fix that. It's a design problem.

[Sencha]

Breaker's critique of the artifact may have been "inartfully" described as it relates to tuning issues, but the spirit of the complaint, as I see it, is this: Legion BM's rotation, in its current iteration, is underwhelming at best and broken at worst. And then the artifact, which is equally underwhelming with few exceptions, just adds insult to injury when compared to virtually all other specs.

In fact, I'd argue that the artifact's failings are directly linked to the core gameplay failings. So, there really isn't any tuning that is going to fix that. It's a design problem.

Fully agree with this. The spec design is far from finalized. There is no skill check and the gameplay is very boring. I see a lot of comments saying the same in the official forums but Blizzard has not taken any action at this stage. Imo they should as well start from scratch.

Hope they will look into it pretty soon or BM will be a joke in Legion.

[DeiVias]

I expect we'll become the focus in a future patch, DK's have the focus right now.

I think next one will be either Monk or us.

Or they'll just tune numbers and let it go live as a total disaster, hopefully that does not happen.

[Sorcerer]

I have a suggestion for misdirection if anyone can and wants to post it on US feedback forums.

Since a lot of people think the WoD glyph should be integrated in the ability in Legion I thought that misdirection would be awesome as a passive/active ability.

Passive effect: All treat (or some kind of X%) you generate is automatically transferred to your pet.
Active effect: What it currently does now - When cast on a player transfer all treat generated for X seconds.

[Sencha]

I have a suggestion for misdirection if anyone can and wants to post it on US feedback forums.

Since a lot of people think the WoD glyph should be integrated in the ability in Legion I thought that misdirection would be awesome as a passive/active ability.

Passive effect: All treat (or some kind of X%) you generate is automatically transferred to your pet.
Active effect: What it currently does now - When cast on a player transfer all treat generated for X seconds.

So your main issue with BM is about misdirection?

[Jin]

I love BM, as a spec, I am a vanilla hunter, so pets were always part of the gameplay, if it is sacrificing him to pull a boss in MC or soloing a old raid boss while his master is dead.

I got the feeling though blizzard isnt listening to anything anyone is saying as feedback concerning this spec, and that worries me greatly... I had hoped to go into adventures again with my trusty ally, she gets old ( I mean 12+ years ).

[DeiVias]

They nerfed Chim shot today, cause, reasons.

Only change i've noticed so far, pet damage is still garbage so no change there.

I'm sure wowhead will have everything soon.

EDIT: Hati follows your pet commands now

[threads]

time to start looking to reroll to something with more than 1 spec

[Deleted]

So BMs get even worse than before ??
They nerf the only decent hitting ability i hope that there will be a good reason beside that because KillCommand who do damage on 110 who most of the classes do on 100 is just meh and the 2 buttons rotation
I`m hapy that my fellow gnmome get bugged out yesterday and crash the game every few mins in combat

[Keyimin]

I posted this in bnet forums but wanted to seek "enlightenment" here as well:

Well, good, the Hati "bug" is fixed. Forgive me if I seem to have misplaced my pom-poms, but I'm currently trying to dig my way out of a mountain of salt.

Can we talk about this gem from Nimox?

The 2 minute debuff is almost entirely there for PvP reasons and should have almost no effect in PvE. I do relaize Hati's health is currently abnormally low, it will be fixed to be higher than what it currently is.

Would anyone like to take a shot at explaining how Hati's two-minute debuff "should have almost no effect in PvE"?!?!

I just ... if I responded to this in the emotional manner I'm feeling at present, I'm afraid I'd sound like a stark raving lunatic, which isn't productive. But when the game dev at least partly responsible for hunter design finally speaks up and says THAT, I no longer feel any rational conversation is possible or, more importantly, meaningful.

Maybe I'm just not seeing the "reasoning" behind this statement and would be happy for someone to explain what I'm missing. But absent that, I see no other rational course of action to the state of things at this point than to just throw up my hands and walk away.

[sololux]

I posted this in bnet forums but wanted to seek "enlightenment" here as well:

Well, good, the Hati "bug" is fixed. Forgive me if I seem to have misplaced my pom-poms, but I'm currently trying to dig my way out of a mountain of salt.

Can we talk about this gem from Nimox?



Would anyone like to take a shot at explaining how Hati's two-minute debuff "should have almost no effect in PvE"?!?!

I just ... if I responded to this in the emotional manner I'm feeling at present, I'm afraid I'd sound like a stark raving lunatic, which isn't productive. But when the game dev at least partly responsible for hunter design finally speaks up and says THAT, I no longer feel any rational conversation is possible or, more importantly, meaningful.

Maybe I'm just not seeing the "reasoning" behind this statement and would be happy for someone to explain what I'm missing. But absent that, I see no other rational course of action to the state of things at this point than to just throw up my hands and walk away.

I agree with you. I hope what he means about pve is that once they get the health pool right he won't be dieing in pve. But even then losing him in PvP is gonna hurt like a mother too. We have a few artifact traits tied up in Hati so if it starts becoming a major loss to DPS with this 2 min CD crap then maybe we just shouldn't spend any artifact points on Hati modifiers other than the obvious first one?

[Kennyloggins]

time to start looking to reroll to something with more than 1 spec

Actually, having only one spec be viable is the best thing that could happen to a pure. It means you don't need to waste your time leveling other artifacts.

[threads]

Actually, having only one spec be viable is the best thing that could happen to a pure. It means you don't need to waste your time leveling other artifacts.

yea at this point i'm just hoping BM is never tuned to be better than MM

[dark666105]

So yeah they might have nerfed the damage but how are the mechanics of BM as the damage is very very far from finalized.

[Bepples]

Actually, having only one spec be viable is the best thing that could happen to a pure. It means you don't need to waste your time leveling other artifacts.

Figures that you would be defending bad design decisions in the other threads too. Having only one viable spec per class is a terrible design decision. We have had years and years of class design countering that exact situation. Successful class design results in a larger variety of viable (and competitive) playstyles. Going in the opposite direction only results in driving people away from the game when their favourite playstyle gets canned; there is ZERO positive benefit.

- - - Updated - - -

They nerfed Chim shot today, cause, reasons.

Only change i've noticed so far, pet damage is still garbage so no change there.

I'm sure wowhead will have everything soon.

EDIT: Hati follows your pet commands now

How exactly was it nerfed? I don't see anything in the notes. Then again, the nerfs to Windburst and Fury of the Eagle weren't documented either.