Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Ielenia]

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

Mark is just a well know guy with an opinion. You don't like his opinions so you attack him personally. End of story.

You define 'ad hominem', yet you completely fail to understand it. I am not attacking Mark Kern's character, I'm simply pointing out his achievements and, because of those, why it's a bad idea to assume his support to the 'vanilla cause' is a good thing. Just like, for example, it wouldn't be a good idea to be happy if an openly racist person supports your idea of 'social justice'. Or if you're a politician running for the office, and get as a vocal supporter someone who has been officially accused multiple times of corruption and other white-collar crimes (and maybe even convicted of some).

[Mullet Man]

attacking him being bad at business/most recent game company =/= attacking him over his opinion

I don't trust him

Ielenia did not discuss Mark's argument for vanilla servers at all in her post that I quoted.
She attacked Mark directly.

This is the pure definition of ad hominem.

[Captnrex]

I agree.

I think the fury that a tiny minority feel towards legacy servers is 99% a verdict on those individuals, and not legacy servers. They feel the need to spout insults and stand in sanctimonious judgment on others, and repeat post to the point that it is worrying (like is that really all they have to do with their lives?).

If the odd lot could construct a good argument against a legacy server, that would be another thing. But they can't, mainly because there is no good argument. A stack of old games are enjoyed by fans, that is why retro gaming is exists and is successful. Blizzard have not provided any detailed analysis on the proposition, and for some really odd reason don't (as yet) want to work with the community and fans to provide a legacy server (read, fans and community doing it for free, and promoting the Blizzard brand for free). This could be arranged such that the intellectual property Blizzard rightly want to protect is protected. Instead Blizzard chose scary legal tactics and to stamp on their fans and customers, to stop a service they don't want to provide anyhow.

To the legacy haters: Go outside and find something constructive in real life to do.

To Blizzard: Work with the fans and community who love the game, not against them.

1- people started attacking legacy people because nos got shut down so they flooded the forums everywhere acting like brats, thus people currently playing and on the break got pissed off at them.

2- People have made arguements against legacy, but most the legacy people go "lol nope thats not a problem"

3- you are not promoting the blizzard brand by using their property, its like stealing and ice cream truck and selling their stuff for them, how does that help them?

4- I could say the same to you about doing something constuctive

[Seezer]

You define 'ad hominem', yet you completely fail to understand it. I am not attacking Mark Kern's character, I'm simply pointing out his achievements and, because of those, why it's a bad idea to assume his support to the 'vanilla cause' is a good thing. Just like, for example, it wouldn't be a good idea to be happy if an openly racist person supports your idea of 'social justice'. Or if you're a politician running for the office, and get as a vocal supporter someone who has been officially accused multiple times of corruption and other white-collar crimes (and maybe even convicted of some).

The "vanilla cause" isn't his. He's the one that took notice of the petition that was already created before people even knew who he was. You don't like the idea of a vanilla server. Fine. Stop being a control freak. Nobody is going to force you to play it. But your'e grasping at straws now trying to make his 1 failure into a valid reason to discount vanilla servers.

And stop continuing to grasp at straws by bringing politics and racism into the discussion. And no, you're not pointing out kerns achievements. You're ignoring his achievements and focusing on his 1 failure.

[Mullet Man]

You define 'ad hominem', yet you completely fail to understand it. I am not attacking Mark Kern's character, I'm simply pointing out his achievements and, because of those, why it's a bad idea to assume his support to the 'vanilla cause' is a good thing. Just like, for example, it wouldn't be a good idea to be happy if an openly racist person supports your idea of 'social justice'. Or if you're a politician running for the office, and get as a vocal supporter someone who has been officially accused multiple times of corruption and other white-collar crimes (and maybe even convicted of some).

Ielenia:

"I'm not attacking Mark Kern's character"

"He may have been great in the past, but after leaving Blizzard the guy just piled failure after failure in his resume"

"The Mark Kern of today is obviously not the Mark Kern that worked at Blizzard ten years ago"

"today he's the guy who buried FireFall and got kicked out of the very company he helped create."

"completely ignoring all his failings after leaving Blizzard"

"Mark Kern is ... someone who was great once, but now, today, only accumulates failures after failures."

[Captnrex]

I'm beginning to hate people on both sides of the argument. At least the obnoxious ones who can't shut up and won't stop insulting each other for simply having differing opinions. Hasn't this discussion gone on long enough for us all to have argued our points to death?

You won't change someone's mind by hitting 'em with a frying pan if a nice conversation hasn't had any effect.

well we could resort to killing people, but that's frowned upon

[Ielenia]

And let's not exaggerate. He's had 1 failure. Not "failure after failure". But hyperbole is the tool of the weak.

To be fair, two. FireFall, and being kicked out of the very company he helped create.

StarCraft (1998), Blizzard Entertainment Inc.
StarCraft: Brood War (1998), Blizzard Entertainment Inc.
StarCraft 64 (2000), Nintendo of America Inc.
Diablo II (2000), Blizzard Entertainment Inc.
Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne (2003), Blizzard Entertainment Inc.
World of Warcraft (2004), Blizzard Entertainment Inc.
Firefall (2014), Red 5 Studios

That's a lot of success. One failure.

... FireFall... and Red 5 Studies.... successes?

So, lot of successes (up until 2004). Care to tell me what else he did after leaving Blizzard in 2006? What recent achievements he has to stand on?

[Seezer]

1- people started attacking legacy people because nos got shut down so they flooded the forums everywhere acting like brats, thus people currently playing and on the break got pissed off at them.

2- People have made arguements against legacy, but most the legacy people go "lol nope thats not a problem"

3- you are not promoting the blizzard brand by using their property, its like stealing and ice cream truck and selling their stuff for them, how does that help them?

4- I could say the same to you about doing something constuctive

So if Blizzard made legacy servers you'd be cool with them. Well that's good. Because that's kind of where the discussion is going. Nost is in the past. I firmly believe that a year from now blizz will have announced legacy servers.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

well we could resort to killing people, but that's frowned upon

Oh sure, take the easy route. No. We must be civilized and continue to try and keep the conversation on course. Even if it goes round and round in the same circles.

I figure if we're going to hear anything official, it'll be at blizzcon.

[Seezer]

So why is Mark Kern going to be allowed to walk into blizzard and hand them this petition? Is he friends with them where this matters somehow?

He said he still talks to Morhaime so I assume they're friends or acquaintances. He doesn't have to be "allowed" to walk up to someone. He'll probably just do it. And you don't have to be a blizzard HQ to recieve a petition. You could actually be anywhere!

[Dead Moose Fandango]

So if Blizzard made legacy servers you'd be cool with them. Well that's good. Because that's kind of where the discussion is going. Nost is in the past. I firmly believe that a year from now blizz will have announced legacy servers.

If Blizzard made legacy servers, I wouldn't play on one, but I wouldn't complain either. To each their own. Mind you, I'd rather 100% effort went into furthering Warcraft's story, but that's just my opinion.

[Seezer]

Oh sure, take the easy route. No. We must be civilized and continue to try and keep the conversation on course. Even if it goes round and round in the same circles.

I figure if we're going to hear anything official, it'll be at blizzcon.

Yeah, considering there really won't be dick to talk about at blizzcon. Movie will be out, Legion will be out, Overwatch will be out, probably just be a concert, costume contest, pvp tourneys and a Metzen speech.

[Captnrex]

So if Blizzard made legacy servers you'd be cool with them. Well that's good. Because that's kind of where the discussion is going. Nost is in the past. I firmly believe that a year from now blizz will have announced legacy servers.

and I am totally fine with it and I figure a while after legion they will probably announce something, but not now. If they did they probably would be hurting legion sales cause "oh no blizzard is already taking resources off of legion"

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Yeah, considering there really won't be dick to talk about at blizzcon. Movie will be out, Legion will be out, Overwatch will be out, probably just be a concert, costume contest, pvp tourneys and a Metzen speech.

don't forget the orgies

[Seezer]

If Blizzard made legacy servers, I wouldn't play on one, but I wouldn't complain either. To each their own. Mind you, I'd rather 100% effort went into furthering Warcraft's story, but that's just my opinion.

That's the beauty of it. No effort has to go into legacy servers. The content is created. They get a few servers (that are nothing cost wise for blizz) and sit back and collect cash. Blizz has enough resources they don't have to take away from the 100% going into new content.

[Deleted]

I cant wait to see the day legacy servers are released, huge queues to get in and thousands upon thousands of players in the starting zones and in the world questing, it would be a memorable moment for me, to finally see it happening, on a official, blizzard server

Only then would u realise why so many people wanted vanilla servers in the first place.

[Mullet Man]

and I am totally fine with it and I figure a while after legion they will probably announce something, but not now. If they did they probably would be hurting legion sales cause "oh no blizzard is already taking resources off of legion"

This is why I suspect we have radio silence right now.
They are planning or considering "something".
But they can't say anything or it will take attention away from Legion.
They need to focus on Legion and get it out the door.
They need customers to focus on Legion right now too.

But hopefully after Legion is released we will hear something.

[Lionhearte0]

Just wanted to stop by this thread and drop my two cents. I'm not going to read 1000 pages, and my comment will probably go largely ignored except those who are actively patrolling it, but I for one am in support of Legacy servers. Not 100%, mind you, because there are SOME issues still on the table that must be figured out, cost effectiveness and whatnot. But I would play on a Legacy server guaranteed. I would pay for it. I would prefer it bundled with the original cost, so that the community is not divided and could have access to both current and old content.

But yes, +1 to Legacy servers.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

That's the beauty of it. No effort has to go into legacy servers. The content is created. They get a few servers (that are nothing cost wise for blizz) and sit back and collect cash. Blizz has enough resources they don't have to take away from the 100% going into new content.

Mind you, they'd have to put some effort into keeping it going and fixing bugs, but that shouldn't be too hard either. The real effort'll be keeping the fanbase happy by choose which patch/expansions fans want.

[Seezer]

and I am totally fine with it and I figure a while after legion they will probably announce something, but not now. If they did they probably would be hurting legion sales cause "oh no blizzard is already taking resources off of legion"

- - - Updated - - -



don't forget the orgies

They wouldn't be taking any resources off of Legion. People love to play the "Taking resources away" as an argument for something they don't like. But guess what? Resources are taken away for everything. For overwatch, for movies, for whatever. Blizzard is big enough where they won't feel any resource loss. And besides, having full resources doesn't make a difference. Remember when they doubled their development team halfway through mop? Didn't speed anything up.

And like I said, the people that would need to be devoted to legacy servers would be extremely minimal. The content is already there. You buy the servers, and people play on it.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

I would pay for it. I would prefer it bundled with the original cost, so that the community is not divided and could have access to both current and old content.

That'd probably be my one issue then. I can't say I'd be terribly grateful to my monthly payment rising simply for extra servers that I have no interest in.