[Pre-Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

No you fall normally

Alright, but you absolutely can cast it while moving, which means it could get pretty sexy with a momentum build, yeah?

[Sangomah]

I dont like the change to Demonic from a rotiational point of view.

The way you worked around your timings and FUry pooling made engaging gameplay, and although the self healing was "broken", the spec and setup itself was rather fun to play. I think they changed the wrong thing here.

That said, it will be fun to test Fel Barrage properly for once. There are some severe realm lag for me atm, so can't really stream it, but I will be mostly working with Weak Auras and other addons.

I installed wowdb thing as well to report back to the site, but not sure if its worth it or not.

[ChakanDH]

I dont like the change to Demonic from a rotiational point of view.

The way you worked around your timings and FUry pooling made engaging gameplay, and although the self healing was "broken", the spec and setup itself was rather fun to play. I think they changed the wrong thing here.

That said, it will be fun to test Fel Barrage properly for once. There are some severe realm lag for me atm, so can't really stream it, but I will be mostly working with Weak Auras and other addons.

I installed wowdb thing as well to report back to the site, but not sure if its worth it or not.

If you wouldnt mind sharing your WA strings when you're done, would be greatly appreciated

Out of interest, what dps are people getting on training dummies now?

[Sangomah]

I just completed Neltharions Lair (Skada is lagging me I think, but have to test) and our dps is down quite a bit without demonic now.

Metamorphis feels like a stronger cooldown now though, so I guess that is intended.
Fell Barrage recharges way to slow. There is no reason to cast it until you have 5 charges and with the proc chance this low, it charges very very slowly. It does feel nice to hit it though. I ran Momentum/prep/barrage now and it hit for 100k per bolt roughly (200k crit) per ball at 822 ilvl and 25% mastery.

The rotaiton is super boring for me now though, so quite sad about that. Its not as "fun" as it used to be. Even with momentum to keep up, it is really the only thing that is worth checking right now.

From my pov, we only have 1 cookie cutter spec right now, and that requires animation cancelling as well, which I think is a poor design choice as we loose dps by not doing it.

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And I cant for the life of me find Wordup's Alpha forum thread. is it on US maybe? o.0

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Not a thread, a post in the alpha thread for Havoc. Probably should've specified, soz <.>

[Sangomah]

Wordup summed up the patch pretty well.

THe recharge and stack gain on Fel barrage is too slow. It can take minutes between each cast, and it is not part of your rotation. I will try CHaos Blades in my next dungoen run and see.

[bmjclark]

Pretty disappointed to see that demonic nerf.

[Sangomah]

Pretty disappointed to see that demonic nerf.

Thats the thing though. It doesn't feel like a nerf, but rather a removal. The talent is hardly worth taking now. A 5 second buff on a 45 second cooldown. We need to absorb an absurd amount of soul fragments to make it worth it now due to the Deast on the Souls artifact fragment.

[Raiju]

Thats the thing though. It doesn't feel like a nerf, but rather a removal. The talent is hardly worth taking now. A 5 second buff on a 45 second cooldown. We need to absorb an absurd amount of soul fragments to make it worth it now due to the Deast on the Souls artifact fragment.

There is the legendary, supposing it makes it live

[Sangomah]

There is the legendary, supposing it makes it live

That is only on 1 second of every time eye beam crits. Not every crit in general

[Deleted]

The most painful part of the demonic nerf is that it removes Chaos nova from single target rotation again. I'd probably even prefer it being tied to Chaos Nova than eye beam, just for some more goddamn rotational interaction. Or both, longer, and replacing the actual meta cool down.
Triggered.

[Deleted]

Dissapointed to see the demonic nerf but it was really powerfull so kindof saw it coming, atleast it makes Chaos blades and Fel Barrage more interresting at first glance (atleast if they fix the recharge rate on Barrage, a minute plus for 5 charges seems overdone, seeing how many damaging abilities we use on a regular basis).

Would love to see some blue response or atleast acknowledgement on the feedback that is given on the US forums (lets be honest I think we all know EU forums get no love) Developers seem awfully silent on their new class and how and why they change things.

I just think of it this way we have about 3 months before the prepatch so lots of changes are still incoming, and then of course final numbers tuning, I'd rather have a class that is fairly balanced at the start of Legion then a class that is massively overpowered like Monks and DK's were at the beginning and then get a massive nerf after one tier of content.

[ChakanDH]

If they plan on leaving it attached to just eye beam, perhaps extend the duration to 8 seconds. Right now, unless you get lucky with crit refunds, you are hard pressed to get even 2 annihilates out after a death sweep. Few more seconds would make a big difference.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

If they plan on leaving it attached to just eye beam, perhaps extend the duration to 8 seconds. Right now, unless you get lucky with crit refunds, you are hard pressed to get even 2 annihilates out after a death sweep. Few more seconds would make a big difference.

I wouldn't be opposed to extending it to 10, to make up for losing Chaos Nova activating it. Smarter people than myself might be able to come up with reasons why that could be a bad idea though, so i'll wait for them to speak up. Only thing i particularly care about is that Fel Barrage is working, and it looks awesome. I didn't really care much for Demonic even before this build, so it's nice to see it mostly functional even if a bit bugged (maybe?).

On that topic, the wording on Fel Barrage seems... odd to me. Is it's damage supposed to be A) increased for every charge you have (more damage at 5 charges), or is it B) supposed to be 400% AP Chaos Damage per charge, and therefore (supposed to be) 5 available uses. Obviously that's something that a Dev would need to answer, because we don't know if it's supposed to consume all 5 charges at once or if it's supposed to consume 1 charge per use. I personally hope it's 1 use consuming all available charges for more damage, so until we get an answer for how those charges are spent: it's just speculation.

Another question: Does talenting into Fel Eruption now increase Mastery's value a bit when taken? Now that it's supposed to be dealing Chaos damage?

[Baelroc]

At least it appears that a majority of the feedback on the alpha forums is that the new incarnation of Demonic is not only super weak and a throw away talent, but also that it destroyed a playstyle that many loved and considered to be a representation of a strong class fantasy. I really hope this gets across to Blizzard. (Side Note: Where the fuck are our Blue posts talking to us about their design intentions with changes? Why is DH one of the only classes that isn't being discussed with players?)

Was Demonic too OP in PVE? Maybe. I don't think so personally. I just feel like the others were too weak. And I disagree with Wordup's post on the alpha forums about Demonic's interplay with other talents. I think having a talent that has good synergy with other talents is a good thing. It already seems like this is how Blizzard wants things, to take a certain build composed of different sets of synergistic talents.

Was Demonic too OP in PVP? Absolutely. But this is the very reason they broke out PVP so they can fine tune things without affecting PVE. The only real problem with Demonic in PVP was self healing. Soul Rending could have been nerfed further easily. I do not think having a stun tied to a damage increasing ability is a negative thing. Many classes line up their CDs for stuns, this is nothing new.

I see a couple of solutions.

Increase the duration of the Demonic buff if its only being tied to Eye Beam. 10 seconds is not unreasonable.

Make Demonic remove Meta as a cooldown and leave it as it was, possibly would need to increase the duration just a tad to make sure it was still competitive. Demonic already made Meta a "meh" 4 minute CD since you were already in Meta frequently enough.

EDIT: TL;DR Demonic was fun NOT because it was OP, but because, for many, it embodied the class fantasy of a Demon Hunter.

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Also, it seems they fixed Rain from Above. Looks pretty cool now, and with the nerf to Imprison, might actually be viable. Damage is still poop though.

[zurm]

I wouldn't be opposed to extending it to 10, to make up for losing Chaos Nova activating it. Smarter people than myself might be able to come up with reasons why that could be a bad idea though, so i'll wait for them to speak up. Only thing i particularly care about is that Fel Barrage is working, and it looks awesome. I didn't really care much for Demonic even before this build, so it's nice to see it mostly functional even if a bit bugged (maybe?).

On that topic, the wording on Fel Barrage seems... odd to me. Is it's damage supposed to be A) increased for every charge you have (more damage at 5 charges), or is it B) supposed to be 400% AP Chaos Damage per charge, and therefore (supposed to be) 5 available uses. Obviously that's something that a Dev would need to answer, because we don't know if it's supposed to consume all 5 charges at once or if it's supposed to consume 1 charge per use. I personally hope it's 1 use consuming all available charges for more damage, so until we get an answer for how those charges are spent: it's just speculation.

Another question: Does talenting into Fel Eruption now increase Mastery's value a bit when taken? Now that it's supposed to be dealing Chaos damage?

In regards to your fel barrage question... it seems to be functioning as "A". The animation appears to be some kind of channel that is the same length (and looks the same, seems like 4 fel bolts flying out of you in rapid succession) regardless of the number of charges expended. You fly up in the air like with eye beam, and just like eyebeam you are rooted for the duration (something like .5-1s, I didn't have a lot of time to test because I had to raid). At 5x charges, my premade 110 DH from the PVP server was doing about 80k per hit (compared to a typical non-buffed non-crit chaos strike hitting something like 120k or so).

In regards to your question about fel eruption, it hits noticeably harder against target dummies (edit: at least, the boss dummies in shrine that I was testing on).

EDIT: Slightly off-topic... I noticed how a lot of people on this forum were very worried about DH being under-represented and no one wanting to play it. On the alpha, however, I see DH's *EVERYWHERE*. At least 30% of the people I see while questing are DH's. I feel like when people get their hands on them and see they aren't a "2 button class" anymore, there will be a lot more people interested in trying them.

[DemonHunterQuestions]

I feel like when people get their hands on them and see they aren't a "2 button class" anymore, there will be a lot more people interested in trying them.

Then how do you explain Demon Blades? If, for example, one is a progression raider, and Demon Blades turns out to be the best talent in tier 2, he/she will have to craft his build around it. That means taking Demon Blades, Chaos Blades, Nemesis, and First Blood. Demon's Bite, and Fel Barrage are removed.

All you are left with is Chaos Strike and Blade Dance as your "rotation". That looks like 2 buttons to me. If we are going to wipe away the image of this class being a "2 button class", why is this option still allowed to persevere?

I understand the point of Demon Blades - some people do not like the "spammyness" of Demon's Bite. But that situation is easily rectified without completely removing the ability.

Something to consider.

[wordup]

At least it appears that a majority of the feedback on the alpha forums is that the new incarnation of Demonic is not only super weak and a throw away talent, but also that it destroyed a playstyle that many loved and considered to be a representation of a strong class fantasy. I really hope this gets across to Blizzard. (Side Note: Where the fuck are our Blue posts talking to us about their design intentions with changes? Why is DH one of the only classes that isn't being discussed with players?).

Well, that may be the feedback, but it's objectively incorrect. Removing Chaos Nova from Demonic doesn't stop it from being better than Chaos Blades with no artifact (and much better with), and equal (and again much better with) to Fel Barrage.

[Baelroc]

Well, that may be the feedback, but it's objectively incorrect. Removing Chaos Nova from Demonic doesn't stop it from being better than Chaos Blades with no artifact (and much better with), and equal (and again much better with) to Fel Barrage.

Is there actual proof for this though? I have a really hard time believing a couple Annihilates every 45 seconds instead of regular Chaos Strikes beats out the insane boost that Chaos Blades is. And if it is, thats more a sign that the other talents are even more lackluster.

[Vanyali]

Then how do you explain Demon Blades? If, for example, one is a progression raider, and Demon Blades turns out to be the best talent in tier 2, he/she will have to craft his build around it. That means taking Demon Blades, Chaos Blades, Nemesis, and First Blood. Demon's Bite, and Fel Barrage are removed.

All you are left with is Chaos Strike and Blade Dance as your "rotation". That looks like 2 buttons to me. If we are going to wipe away the image of this class being a "2 button class", why is this option still allowed to persevere?

I understand the point of Demon Blades - some people do not like the "spammyness" of Demon's Bite. But that situation is easily rectified without completely removing the ability.

Something to consider.

You still have more than 2 buttons with Demon Blades. There's nothing in this point that's true.

If nothing else, you'll want to cast eye beam. In reality, you'll also want Felblade, you'll still Blade Dance on AoE, and you'll be throwing in throw glaive / free chaos novas / FoTI, and either be managing Demonic or Fel Barrage as well.