pvp gear tied to rating (and mythic ilevel)

[Tharkkun]

Look, I know what you are talking about. I don't think your numbers are correct, because they scale gear up in all PVP scenarios and so you can't go below a certain (pretty high) level, but fine, whatever, again, I understand where you are coming from.

Right now, there are two stages of each PVP season for everyone: the warmup stage where you get gear, and the regular stage where you already got all gear there is to get. In the warmup stage there are gear differences. In the regular stage there aren't, in that noone can have better gear than you do.

You are talking about the warmup stage. Yes, it is an important stage. Yes, many people who PVP casually never leave it and never manage to obtain full gear. That's why they have been adding various things to help it - (a) scaling all gear up to a certain ilvl in PVP scenarios, (b) adding conquest catch-up, etc.

Yes, they can do more, and if you want them to do more (I certainly have no issues with that), let's ask them to do more - ie, let them have that system where the ilvl differences get scaled down and decrease the difference between a non-geared player and a geared player even further. When they are discussing what that difference is now, they are citing high numbers like 50%, but that's misleading, because it's only like that in non-PVP scenarios. The moment you account for scaling up to the minimum ilvl and limiting down to the maximum ilvl - which is what happens in PVP - the difference shrinks to maybe 10-12%, and that's me erring on the high side. But fine, let's have their system with gear templates and the scaling of the ilvl difference make that difference even smaller, let's have it be 2%. Heck, let's have it be 0%, I am all for it - it is Blizzard who would object.

So, if there's a problem in the warmup stage, sure, let's solve it, we are all for it. But what do they do instead? They throw away the regular stage when you are maxed, and they turn everything into the warmup stage. They make it nearly impossible to be maxed even for top 1s who play all day long, and impossible to get anywhere near maxed to all others. You wanted less grind? Hah, welcome to permanent grind. They also remove the ilvl caps. Hi, gear from raids dominating PVP, we missed you (not). And if you think that the ilvl scaling will save it, because you have some number like 5% max difference from no gear to max gear in mind, then I kind of doubt it, because, (a) I don't know where you get that 5% number from, they only talked numbers in tweets as illustrations, it's much larger than 5% on the current alpha and even if they scale it down, we'll have things like the second raid tier and mythic warforged and whatnot expanding it, and (b) it's not that far from 5% now (and as I say, if it is too high now, let's reduce it, by all means, they have all the tools already implemented and had them since MoP, we are talking about changing two-three numbers, that's it).

So, yes, with Cata / MoP / WoD, you had to get through the gearing stage first. But after you got through it, you are all set. You are maxed. No gear disadvantage. And as you were getting through the gearing stage, the gear disadvantage was becoming smaller. Because there was a limit and each piece of conquest was getting your closer and closer to that limit. (In practice, once you had a 4-piece set + weapons + trinkets = 8 pieces out of 16, you felt like you can start breathing, the rest of the gearing was feeling pretty good.)

With Legion, it is constant gear disadvantage. You can never get maxed. Worse, as you get geared, you *don't* get closer to being maxed, because those higher than you who spend *the same effort as you* (= play the same number of games, have the same winrate) get better rewards, the distance between you might actually increase instead of decreasing.

It becomes much worse.

Also, we had it already. It didn't work. It is a huge step back.

PS: You might wonder why they do it like that in the first place, when - if they are worried about gear differences in PVP - they might simply use the existing scaling tools and just tune the numbers closer. They do it because they want you to grind constantly and they want to simplify things. Their logic is: in PVE as you progress further, you get better gear, so let's do the same in PVP. The problem is, they forgot that this works in PVE solely because you fight a fixed set of bosses. In PVP, the bosses you fight gear up same as yourself, and so it doesn't work. If every time Method wiped on a boss, the boss got a small boost (because his rating got higher and that translated to his ilvl or whatever), they'd likely have never defeated it. Seriously, I don't know, maybe it's that they have some new guys who come all cocky and think they are going to change all PVP from the ground up to the better with nobody to tell them why PVP painfully came to use the gearing model it uses now, etc. It definitely looks like it. And they will see that they are making things much worse, not better, absolutely, they will hear this from the forums aplenty. It just might take another expansion of PVP being even more broken than before for that to happen. We are looking at a trainwreck. :-/

The numbers are skewed in Alpha because they haven't done a single numbers pass outside of just making sure there aren't classes that one shot everyone. So we can't take any of the unbalance right now as how it will be. You know this unless you're playing stupid.

The majority of the community is in the gear up stage on live. Even right now on live with the boosting of ilevel there's still a 1-200k health difference between boosted and 740. In PVP as a hunter I can chimaera shot, aimed shot and kill shot execute them if they are ilevel boosted. Someone in 740 gear wouldn't be in any danger.

Or I can game the system by going survival and stacking mastery/versatility. It's quite ridiculous and swings me out of balance. If I do that in Legion it won't do a thing because my stats are based on a template.

There was just a blue post today confirming what I said. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743054830#3. 10 ilevels = a 1% stats change.

Blizzard provides PVP gear because the entire game is based off gear progression. If they completely eliminated PVP gear it would turn away a lot of players even if it gives little to no advantage in the new system.

[Wildpantz]

Having no power difference will result in fotm rerollers and it will get even more broken

[Deleted]

Having no power difference will result in fotm rerollers and it will get even more broken

You already have fotm rereollers in the game, no matter if there are gear differences. The difference is that the month could take half a year sometimes.

[Toppy]

Legendaries, trinkets and enchants will be disabled in intsanced PVP. However, this presents the problem that you need to grind a 2nd set of gear for PVP while you can use legendaries in most Legion PVE content.

Grinding a second set of gear, honor talents, and artifact talents is more punishing to players that want to casually PVP than obtaining all the conquest gear within a month. My gut tells me it is going to take more than a month to grind out a 2nd sete of gear, honor talents and artifact talents.

- - - Updated - - -



This isn't new. This is kind of like the failed model from WotLK PVP gearing model.

The failure with the WoTLK model was there was no honor weapons, so there was a big barrier to reach the rating for PVP weapons or you were forced to do PVE for weapons. At least Legion solves that problem with having artifact weapon from the start and stat templates.

Legendary -effects- are disabled. Legendaries still, as of now, have 25 ilvl on mythic.

[Eapoe]

Legendaries, trinkets and enchants will be disabled in intsanced PVP. However, this presents the problem that you need to grind a 2nd set of gear for PVP while you can use legendaries in most Legion PVE content.

Grinding a second set of gear, honor talents, and artifact talents is more punishing to players that want to casually PVP than obtaining all the conquest gear within a month. My gut tells me it is going to take more than a month to grind out a 2nd sete of gear, honor talents and artifact talents.

- - - Updated - - -



This isn't new. This is kind of like the failed model from WotLK PVP gearing model.

The failure with the WoTLK model was there was no honor weapons, so there was a big barrier to reach the rating for PVP weapons or you were forced to do PVE for weapons. At least Legion solves that problem with having artifact weapon from the start and stat templates.

I'm not really understanding this arguement. Technically, on Live and in past xpacs to WotLK (which I started in) there exists the grind for a 2nd set. PvE gear AND PvP gear sets. Whether you did rated, random, or PvE gear by themselves, they had gear that supported that aspect of the game. Legion is taking that 2nd grind out and bringing all gear to the same playing field. While I understand the point of WotLK weapons, you still had PvP gear to grind out thru BG's and arenas, with VoA being the only randomly acquired gear for PvP. So the model is not the same, at all.
Previous xpacs=grind raids for raid gear and grind PvP for PvP gear. Legion=grind out however you see fit and be close to equal footing because all gear is the same. The power level difference is roughly 1% per 10 ilvls, which once worked out thru Alpha and Beta puts more emphasis on player skill rather than long grind fests in multiple areas.
As far as flavor of the month comps, that will never change as there will always be comps suited better for each other as the xpac continues. This is nothing new and not something that Legion will bring about.

[Krackoon]

Just their way of trying to dictate how we play the game. They think this ''new system,'' which is just partly rehashed from Lich King, is going to increase their sad rated pool. I've never bothered with rated, honestly. I prefer WPVP, but I had planned on doing rated in Legion for the achievements. After reading this, I may decide to avoid it altogether.

You're not going to dictate how I play the game. I'll spend the next 2 years killing lowbie players. I'll get my moneys worth.

[xhisors]

This was the way it was in MoP to the point where PvP gear in WPvP wasnt even close to Heroic level PvE gear, youd get shit on. Gear in Legion isnt a huge thing thats what people arent understanding, it doesnt give you a huge advantage. If you look at how WoTLK was, the Legion system is pretty similar to that and it worked perfectly well. People are just too lazy and want to be spoonfed everything in video games now rather than practice and get better, its stupid.

What you don't understand is it shouldn't be a thing at all. Its 100% stupid that someone has more gear than me because of RNG or has played longer. Equal playing field should be equal. I don't care if its 1% 5% or 10% or 20%. Normalize gear in instanced pvp and move on.

How is wanting gear to be 100% irrelevant in pvp and just be skill based making people who pvp "lazy and want to be spoonfed"? Its just wanting balance and a fair match up in terms of gear at all times.

[Livevil]

On Live, I do mythic raids and have an ilvl of 744/745, I go into a BG I go down to 700, where people that do only BG's since the beginning will have roughly 730-736 ilvl in PvP gear and the people who do arena/RBG's will have 740. On Live a difference of 10 ilvl's is pretty big in PvP, let alone 40. On Alpha, that difference will (in theory from what they stated) will only be a power level gap of 1-4% difference. So yes, players that do ranked PvP will still be at an advantage over casuals like always, but players doing mythic raids will be closer to equal footing as ranked players. The difference in win/loss ratio will come down to player skill and team comp more than the gear will, even considering a mythic raiders gear vs someone who only does heroic dungeons or casual BG's. Also, with things like Ashran still being around, it might be safe to assume doing the daily with 4 events/leader killed will still award a higher ilvl piece. This is a very good system to allow all players access to a new part of the game, but still focus on the PvP minded players being the ones who dominate on skill and planning.

Your mythic gear gets downgraded to 725, not 700. That's 5 ilvl difference from honor gear, which you can easily farm at the moment within a day of running trashran. If not, 725ilvl is more than enough to cap conquest and catch up to everyone with 2-3 3hour arena sessions.

In Legion with your mythic gear you will be outgearing 99.5% of the ENTIRE PVP POPULATION in PVP by just doing pve.(that's every one minus the gladiators if you were wondering) You realize how idiotic this is? And before someone starts talking about stat percentages and whatnot, let me tell you this. Honor gear and conquest gear currently have a 10% difference in stats. We both know how big of a difference 730 to 740 is. In legion your difference will be 5-6% in stats but that's on top of Artifact level differences and potential honor level differences. Starting to feel inadequate? Do have have a way to catch up though? No.

Assuming you start playing late in the season you will have to spend months trying to catch up to those that are already ahead with the gearing method being random strongboxes. Given how cancerous the community already is, you can safely assume that gear gaps will create even more difficulties in finding arena teams and RBG groups.

Last but not least, your average casual gamer gets ostracized. They can no longer get conquest gear by slowly farming conquest with randombgs/trashran/skirmishes. They have to do rated or raid which is yet another idiot notion from the developer team.

[Nerxyrall]

What you don't understand is it shouldn't be a thing at all. Its 100% stupid that someone has more gear than me because of RNG or has played longer. Equal playing field should be equal. I don't care if its 1% 5% or 10% or 20%. Normalize gear in instanced pvp and move on.

How is wanting gear to be 100% irrelevant in pvp and just be skill based making people who pvp "lazy and want to be spoonfed"? Its just wanting balance and a fair match up in terms of gear at all times.

While i see your point. There would be less progression in PVP. Now you have Honor(/Prestige), Ratings and Gear. With normalized gear there would be only 2 progression paths and if you dont do rbg/arena then only one.

Especially for more casual gamers (or people who dont play rated PVP) i dont think that would be too great.

In Legion with your mythic gear you will be outgearing 99.5% of the ENTIRE PVP POPULATION in PVP by just doing pve.(that's every one minus the gladiators if you were wondering) You realize how idiotic this is? And before someone starts talking about stat percentages and whatnot, let me tell you this. Honor gear and conquest gear currently have a 10% difference in stats. We both know how big of a difference 730 to 740 is. In legion your difference will be 5-6% in stats but that's on top of Artifact level differences and potential honor level differences. Starting to feel inadequate? Do have have a way to catch up though? No.

Assuming you start playing late in the season you will have to spend months trying to catch up to those that are already ahead with the gearing method being random strongboxes. Given how cancerous the community already is, you can safely assume that gear gaps will create even more difficulties in finding arena teams and RBG groups.

Last but not least, your average casual gamer gets ostracized. They can no longer get conquest gear by slowly farming conquest with randombgs/trashran/skirmishes. They have to do rated or raid which is yet another idiot notion from the developer team.

Your "outgearing" is exaggerated. Heroicilvl vs Mythicilvl will be 10-20ilvl(dont know exactly) hence 1-2%. Thats nothing too major...you wont be to "weak". Of course when you start with fresh 800 it will be tough for some time. But rbgs nowadays are full of those people and the diadvatage will be 5-7% maybe (800ilvl vs 870ilvl(dont know exactly how much ilvl mythic loot will have--and not many will have mythic ilvl gear)
Artefakt gets faster power the longer Legion lats-->Catchup-mechanic.
You will get to honor lvl 10 fast enough (one talent in every tier if i understand the system correctly) so the difference between honor lvl 10 and 50 wont be tooo major .....

[Livevil]

While i see your point. There would be less progression in PVP. Now you have Honor(/Prestige), Ratings and Gear. With normalized gear there would be only 2 progression paths and if you dont do rbg/arena then only one.

Especially for more casual gamers (or people who dont play rated PVP) i dont think that would be too great.




Your "outgearing" is exaggerated. Heroicilvl vs Mythicilvl will be 10-20ilvl(dont know exactly) hence 1-2%. Thats nothing too major...you wont be to "weak". Of course when you start with fresh 800 it will be tough for some time. But rbgs nowadays are full of those people and the diadvatage will be 5-7% maybe (800ilvl vs 870ilvl(dont know exactly how much ilvl mythic loot will have--and not many will have mythic ilvl gear)
Artefakt gets faster power the longer Legion lats-->Catchup-mechanic.
You will get to honor lvl 10 fast enough (one talent in every tier if i understand the system correctly) so the difference between honor lvl 10 and 50 wont be tooo major .....

Nothing is exaggerated. When people hated to lose the minuscule dmg increases profession perks provided, they will certainly hate being outgeared by 4% in legion. Especially when they have zero option to catch up and might already be in disadvantage in their artifact and honor level. And i'm not talking about irrelevant comparisons like mythic vs heroic as you do, but rather the most common comparison which is a fresh player vs the average geared player.

[Eapoe]

Your mythic gear gets downgraded to 725, not 700. That's 5 ilvl difference from honor gear, which you can easily farm at the moment within a day of running trashran. If not, 725ilvl is more than enough to cap conquest and catch up to everyone with 2-3 3hour arena sessions.

In Legion with your mythic gear you will be outgearing 99.5% of the ENTIRE PVP POPULATION in PVP by just doing pve.(that's every one minus the gladiators if you were wondering) You realize how idiotic this is? And before someone starts talking about stat percentages and whatnot, let me tell you this. Honor gear and conquest gear currently have a 10% difference in stats. We both know how big of a difference 730 to 740 is. In legion your difference will be 5-6% in stats but that's on top of Artifact level differences and potential honor level differences. Starting to feel inadequate? Do have have a way to catch up though? No.

Assuming you start playing late in the season you will have to spend months trying to catch up to those that are already ahead with the gearing method being random strongboxes. Given how cancerous the community already is, you can safely assume that gear gaps will create even more difficulties in finding arena teams and RBG groups.

Last but not least, your average casual gamer gets ostracized. They can no longer get conquest gear by slowly farming conquest with randombgs/trashran/skirmishes. They have to do rated or raid which is yet another idiot notion from the developer team.

Sorry, my mistake then on the ilvl difference of PvE going into PvP. But from a not casual random BG player, there's a 15 ilvl difference between me and the rated players, which is much stronger than, say, a 1.5% difference in power level going into Legion. As far as your casual gamer goes, with the lockbox on win, they will still gear up to dungeon level quality at start of xpac, which would put them roughly at 3-4% disadvantage, if they are only doing BG's. If they did LFR the power level difference becomes more again like 1.5-2% difference. The ilvl difference is something not a lot of people are considering in their arguements against the new system, when in fact, it still benefits the rated players, will still require non PvP players to pay for carries to a 1700 rating, and actually has less of a gap in player power level difference than Live does now.

[Mafic]

Legendary -effects- are disabled. Legendaries still, as of now, have 25 ilvl on mythic.

That is going to throw a massive monkey wrench to the entire balance of things.

Legion Season 1 blue gear is item level 810.
Legion Season 1 epic gear is item level 840

Highest raid gear is item level 870 which is the same ilevel for the Legion Season 1 elite gear.

So the difference between the blue gear and highest raid/elite PVP gear is 60 items levels. So using Holinka's formula you are looking at 6% difference in all stats for the first season alone. Good news is that your legendaries you can slot will be limited and worn in increasing number over time but the item level of legendaries is a staggering 940.

Blue gear is 810 while legendaries are 940..which is a difference of 130 item levels....or using Holinka's formula 13% difference...that is HUGE. Huge difference even in instanced PVP and that is only the first season.

- - - Updated - - -

Your mythic gear gets downgraded to 725, not 700. That's 5 ilvl difference from honor gear, which you can easily farm at the moment within a day of running trashran. If not, 725ilvl is more than enough to cap conquest and catch up to everyone with 2-3 3hour arena sessions.

In Legion with your mythic gear you will be outgearing 99.5% of the ENTIRE PVP POPULATION in PVP by just doing pve.(that's every one minus the gladiators if you were wondering) You realize how idiotic this is? And before someone starts talking about stat percentages and whatnot, let me tell you this. Honor gear and conquest gear currently have a 10% difference in stats. We both know how big of a difference 730 to 740 is. In legion your difference will be 5-6% in stats but that's on top of Artifact level differences and potential honor level differences. Starting to feel inadequate? Do have have a way to catch up though? No.

Assuming you start playing late in the season you will have to spend months trying to catch up to those that are already ahead with the gearing method being random strongboxes. Given how cancerous the community already is, you can safely assume that gear gaps will create even more difficulties in finding arena teams and RBG groups.

Last but not least, your average casual gamer gets ostracized. They can no longer get conquest gear by slowly farming conquest with randombgs/trashran/skirmishes. They have to do rated or raid which is yet another idiot notion from the developer team.

This is why this is going to be a big problem. I am surprised the devs don't see the problem with this.

[Turtlewithnoshell]

Info just leaked.

No pvp vendor.

Gear comes from RNG lockboxes from wins:

• bg/skirm = dungeon heroic ilevel
• "1700" rating = normal raid
• "gladiator" = mythic

Guess they never learned from the previous mistake of gear tied to "rated" anything. FOTM specs [or combos] get gear and the rest get hosed. And nowadays, cheating is practically guaranteed and somewhat allowed.

Current gear acquisition system (aka in wod) is the best it has ever been.
Legion pvp gear acquisition is bad for the majority of the player base.

The amount of bots is insane now, so many cheaters. It's sad that now the cheaters are going to be able to gatekeep our gear now too, not just titles.

[Mafic]

The amount of bots is insane now, so many cheaters. It's sad that now the cheaters are going to be able to gatekeep our gear now too, not just titles.

Yeah I am not sure how Blizz intends to deter this from happening. I have a theory that they will allow epic gear drops from Ashran to avoid such situations and why they are still keeping Ashran in Legion. But RNG boxes is still a bad idea overall.

[xhisors]

While i see your point. There would be less progression in PVP. Now you have Honor(/Prestige), Ratings and Gear. With normalized gear there would be only 2 progression paths and if you dont do rbg/arena then only one.

Especially for more casual gamers (or people who dont play rated PVP) i dont think that would be too great..

Thats exactly why it won't be a thing. Its designed for casual games to have something to work towards, which is a great system for those who enjoy that. I just believe that there could be a progression system in place to make up for the lack of not getting gear.

We already have relic progression, pvp talent progression and prestige system. Couldn't we still add another progression system that isn't gear specifically to make your character more powerful in instanced pvp?

[Tharkkun]

Your mythic gear gets downgraded to 725, not 700. That's 5 ilvl difference from honor gear, which you can easily farm at the moment within a day of running trashran. If not, 725ilvl is more than enough to cap conquest and catch up to everyone with 2-3 3hour arena sessions.

In Legion with your mythic gear you will be outgearing 99.5% of the ENTIRE PVP POPULATION in PVP by just doing pve.(that's every one minus the gladiators if you were wondering) You realize how idiotic this is? And before someone starts talking about stat percentages and whatnot, let me tell you this. Honor gear and conquest gear currently have a 10% difference in stats. We both know how big of a difference 730 to 740 is. In legion your difference will be 5-6% in stats but that's on top of Artifact level differences and potential honor level differences. Starting to feel inadequate? Do have have a way to catch up though? No.

Assuming you start playing late in the season you will have to spend months trying to catch up to those that are already ahead with the gearing method being random strongboxes. Given how cancerous the community already is, you can safely assume that gear gaps will create even more difficulties in finding arena teams and RBG groups.

Last but not least, your average casual gamer gets ostracized. They can no longer get conquest gear by slowly farming conquest with randombgs/trashran/skirmishes. They have to do rated or raid which is yet another idiot notion from the developer team.

Except Mythic players won't suddenly acquire all their gear overnight. They'll be earning it just as fast as you will by PVPing and getting boxes. And if you're playing catchup you're not sitting at a 50-75% power disadvantage like you are now. You're 5-6% behind. That's a huge change. You'll earn your gear by PVPing. Not running around doing easy events in Ashran avoiding PVP.

[Nerxyrall]

Blue gear is 810 while legendaries are 940..which is a difference of 130 item levels....or using Holinka's formula 13% difference...that is HUGE. Huge difference even in instanced PVP and that is only the first season.

of one item...maybe two....if legendary in pvp even count that way....
But even if they do 130ilvl difference X 2 (for two legendarys and we dont even know how they are obtained or how many you can have) = 260ilvl ~17ilvl (overall) 1,7% more difference.
--> ~6% + ~1,7% =~8% difference....still not that much


To be fair ~8% stats difference + Artefaktlvl (which you will have to catch up, even with the catchup mechanic might take some time) + honor disadvantage (lvl 10 with a point in every tier should be obtainable rather fast) is a difference...migt be even a major one...
But you will be able to lessen that gab really really fast --->not that big of a problem its made out to be

[rda]

Except Mythic players won't suddenly acquire all their gear overnight. They'll be earning it just as fast as you will by PVPing and getting boxes. And if you're playing catchup you're not sitting at a 50-75% power disadvantage like you are now. You're 5-6% behind. That's a huge change. You'll earn your gear by PVPing. Not running around doing easy events in Ashran avoiding PVP.

Where do you keep getting your "50-75% power disadvantage like you are now"???

It's about 10-12%, it was said numerous times, because of ilvl limits on both sides.

And it's reducing as you gear up, unlike in Legion.

[Mafic]

Except Mythic players won't suddenly acquire all their gear overnight. They'll be earning it just as fast as you will by PVPing and getting boxes. And if you're playing catchup you're not sitting at a 50-75% power disadvantage like you are now. You're 5-6% behind. That's a huge change. You'll earn your gear by PVPing. Not running around doing easy events in Ashran avoiding PVP.

It takes one month to catch up on live (full conquest). If you are a casual player 2-3 months for full conquest gear. In Legion. you will never catch up if you start late or are a casual player. This is the failed WotLk model combined with the RNG boxes of Ashran that also failed. This system is going to be exposed in a big way.

- - - Updated - - -

of one item...maybe two....if legendary in pvp even count that way....
But even if they do 130ilvl difference X 2 (for two legendarys and we dont even know how they are obtained or how many you can have) = 260ilvl ~17ilvl (overall) 1,7% more difference.
--> ~6% + ~1,7% =~8% difference....still not that much

According to Holinka:

10 ilevels = 1% increase in stats

Alpha tester are reporting different numbers, but right now there is a lot of confusion because the intent doesn't line up with what is happening on alpha.

[Nerxyrall]

According to Holinka:

10 ilevels = 1% increase in stats

Alpha tester are reporting different numbers, but right now there is a lot of confusion because the intent doesn't line up with what is happening on alpha.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743054830#3

2 days old. alpha being alpha-->numbers are wrong

no confusion just panicmongering (thats really a word??? weird language^^)