pvp gear tied to rating (and mythic ilevel)

[Turtlewithnoshell]

Yeah I am not sure how Blizz intends to deter this from happening. I have a theory that they will allow epic gear drops from Ashran to avoid such situations and why they are still keeping Ashran in Legion. But RNG boxes is still a bad idea overall.

Ashran is freaking horrible, they should bring back TB and WG.

[Eapoe]

It takes one month to catch up on live (full conquest). If you are a casual player 2-3 months for full conquest gear. In Legion. you will never catch up if you start late or are a casual player. This is the failed WotLk model combined with the RNG boxes of Ashran that also failed. This system is going to be exposed in a big way.

- - - Updated - - -



According to Holinka:

10 ilevels = 1% increase in stats

Alpha tester are reporting different numbers, but right now there is a lot of confusion because the intent doesn't line up with what is happening on alpha.

Again though, you're talking about people who would only ever do PvP and never any PvE ever. With things like LFR, mythic dungeons, CM dungeon model, and random boxes, you will gear up just as fast as live, if not even a little faster. Also, legendaries are deactivated in PvP, and considering their ilvl will be higher than the last raid tier (or hey, they won't remain legendary), then it will be assumed that mythic ilvl is lower, and LFR will be roughly 50-60 ilvls lower than mythic, which is only about 5-6% stat difference for PvP. If we go by Live, having roughly half warforged mythic gear, my ilvl is 744 (with VP upgrades) with warforged mythic dungeon items being roughly 700-725 ilvl + 10 point upgrade, it can be safely assumed the average ilvl would be around 730+. So, by that scaling, that's a difference of 1.4-3% stat weights.
The only people who would be left behind at all is the casual player who does nothing but random BG's. People that start late have access to everything I just mentioned.
To quote the caveat, it's Alpha, it's safe to assume it's probably not working right just yet and has bugs to be fixed to bring their model out correctly.

[Deleted]

The only people who would be left behind at all is the player who does nothing but random BG's.

Which is the majority i assume. Once again, blizzard designs for minorities.

The changes in the PVP system are nothing but hypocrisy. They dont remove the fact newbie players will be roflstomped by heavily overequipped players. They dont remove the need for gear from PVP. They just replace the old good working honor system by a strongbox-slot-machine. And limit better gear to those who organized.. once again.

[Eapoe]

Which is the majority i assume. Once again, blizzard designs for minorities.

You are assuming the majority of the playerbase does nothing but random BG's? If I was unclear in my meaning, I apologize, but the players I mentioned are those who do nothing in the game at all but random Bg's. This just brings up the comparison of someone who logs in and only does heroic dungeons on live. They will only get the heroic dungeon gear. Also, if you quote me, please don't delete out the "casual" player part that was in the post. Maybe I edited that in after you hit reply and it hasn't updated yet, but that is in there.

[Deleted]

You are assuming the majority of the playerbase does nothing but random BG's? If I was unclear in my meaning, I apologize, but the players I mentioned are those who do nothing in the game at all but random Bg's. This just brings up the comparison of someone who logs in and only does heroic dungeons on live. They will only get the heroic dungeon gear.

They were able to get the best gear by just doing random bgs, by investing a lot of time into it. In Legion, they arent anymore.

if you really believe locking gear behind organization will drive a lot of players to play organized you just seem to have forgotten about the lessons from sunwell and TBC.

Noone played sunwell in TBC. Less than 1%. No matter if it actually had the biggest carrot as incentive.

The honor system worked. The only thing it needed was to be useful after you had all gear. And that could have been solved another way.

And beside all that.. strongboxes suck. A currency which allows you to work for gear at a pace you select, and even for the gear you wish to have, is way more catered to the player than.. RNG.

[Eapoe]

They were able to get the best gear by just doing random bgs, by investing a lot of time into it. In Legion, they arent anymore.

if you really believe locking gear behind organization will drive a lot of players to play organized you just seem to have forgotten about the lessons from sunwell and TBC.

Noone played sunwell in TBC. Less than 1%. No matter if it actually had the biggest carrot as incentive.

Sunwell was also one of the hardest things to do back in BC. Some of which wasn't even able to be cleared until bugs were fixed and bosses adjusted. This is also in a time where there was only one difficulty, and much more was required to just even be able to walk thru the door. This is a lot different than someone who can que for LFR and go afk for loot, or take the time in 680 gear to form a group thru group finder for mythic dungeons while doing other things in game instead of sitting in town spamming trade.
Again, the comparison comes up with time spent in randoms, should a player who ques for dungeons repeatedly get mythic raid gear just because they did it all the time? The change brings things more in line and a much more equal footing. It brings back a model of if you want something, go earn it the hard way, something a lot of people have asked for. At the same time though, it keeps players close to the same power level so you can go into an arena match and actually have a chance your first few matches if you are skilled and not just face rolled by one geared player carrying an under geared player.
There's pros and cons to both sides, I just don't think the cons are doing anything but being fixated on the fact they will have to step foot into something other than a random BG to get gear.

[Deleted]

Again, the comparison comes up with time spent in randoms, should a player who ques for dungeons repeatedly get mythic raid gear just because they did it all the time?

I think people should be rewarded by either time effort OR skill. Means, a skilled player gets instant gratification, while a matchmade player gets the best gear after playing constantly for some months.

Everyone, who actually invests effort, be it through just being engaged or skilled, should be rewarded. Thats how it actually worked before Legion. Matchmade battleground players could play for a long time to gain the highest ilvl gear available, and had something to play for.

The change brings things more in line and a much more equal footing.

No, it takes away the incentive for PVE players to play PVP occassionally to fill gaps in their gear.. That was actually possible in WoD. Also, it takes away the incentive for matchmade players to continue to play, as they have absolutely no extrinsic reward left.

It brings back a model of if you want something, go earn it the hard way, something a lot of people have asked for.

Just a very vocal small minority. The same guys that asked to remove flying, LFR and LFD. It's not constructive, it's actually destructive, as it takes away opportunities from players.

At the same time though, it keeps players close to the same power level so you can go into an arena match and actually have a chance your first few matches if you are skilled and not just face rolled by one geared player carrying an under geared player.

At endgame level, after three tiers, with a difference of 120 itemlevels, people will get roflstomped by mythic raiders in battlegrounds. Is that actually justified?

There's pros and cons to both sides, I just don't think the cons are doing anything but being fixated on the fact they will have to step foot into something other than a random BG to get gear.

I think you also have to see the size of the target group. Something also blizzard forgets. There are some thousand high level PVP players, and hundreds of thousand of matchmade PVP players. Actually, blizzard should design the game for majorities, and not minorities only.

if i would have the power to change the system, it would look like this:

1.) Matchmade battlegrounds and skirmishes are fully normalized. Gear gives no advantage.
2.) Organized battlegrounds and arena have the gear advantage.
3.) When you reach the highest level of honor talents, you will be rewarded with a high level PVP item, not just some colorful funsie.

That would solve all the problems with unjustified skill advantages and add time to skill to be rewarding.

[Livevil]

Except Mythic players won't suddenly acquire all their gear overnight. They'll be earning it just as fast as you will by PVPing and getting boxes. And if you're playing catchup you're not sitting at a 50-75% power disadvantage like you are now. You're 5-6% behind. That's a huge change. You'll earn your gear by PVPing. Not running around doing easy events in Ashran avoiding PVP.

Except if you are playing catchup with a 50% power disadvantage atm, it only takes 1 day of running trashran to get full honor gear. Then about two 4 hour sessions of arena capping to get full conquest gear.

In legion you will be playing catchup for the entire season while being 5-6% constantly behind with pretty much no chance of ever catching up. And most importantly, you will be at gear disadvantage in PVP even to someone that has never stepped inside a pvp instance.

[Failedpixel]

In a way it's nice that you can obtain better gear through pvp. It's just the "system" in which the rewards are handed out, is flawed. "Rich get richer" sort of way.

I dont think mythic gear should be given for killing players. There's no good system to determine skill, and it's hard to argue against the game is not balanced.

Heroic raid level pvp gear, that upscales to mythic (+5) in pvp combat; has the best compromise. It makes pvp gear the best for pvp without affecting pve anything.

You're forgetting that ilvl in pvp only increases your stats 1% for every 10 ilvls. That means if you do 500,000 damage per hit at item level 800 you will do 515,000 per hit at 830 ilvl. If your target has 10,000,000 health it will take 20 hits at 800 ilvl, it will take 19.417 hits... so 20 hits. There is almost no advantage to item level at all. Taking it to a fresh 110 to a full geared 110 player we can compare 800 ilvl to 900 ilvl. If you do 500,000 damage at 800 ilvl you will do 550,000 damage per hit at 900 ilvl. Lets compare hits against a 10,000,000 hp target again. At 800 ilvl it would be 20 hits, and at 900 ilvl it would be 18.18 hits (and since you can't cast .18 of a spell) 19 hits.

Now obviously things like crits and instant casts will also hit harder, but this boiled down shows you how little advantage item level actually gives in legion pvp.

The rich don't get richer, the better players will always beat weaker players. This is how it should be, no matter your gear, if you are good you should win.

- - - Updated - - -

They were able to get the best gear by just doing random bgs, by investing a lot of time into it. In Legion, they arent anymore.

if you really believe locking gear behind organization will drive a lot of players to play organized you just seem to have forgotten about the lessons from sunwell and TBC.

Noone played sunwell in TBC. Less than 1%. No matter if it actually had the biggest carrot as incentive.

Wrong, it wasn't done by a lot of people because it was hard to get enough people geared enough and organized to do the content.

[Deleted]

The rich don't get richer, the better players will always beat weaker players. This is how it should be, no matter your gear, if you are good you should win.

Thats the reason because i think gear should not matter at all. In special not in matchmade content, where people of the both extremes being either in full mythic equip with an advantage of 100 ilvl or with starter gear meet.

Gear should only matter in competetive content. Organized arena and organized battlegrounds.

- - - Updated - - -

Wrong, it wasn't done by a lot of people because it was hard to get enough people geared enough and organized to do the content.

Raiding in general wasnt very popular in TBC. Whats your excuse for that fact?

Also the linear progression? Even for the starter raids?

[Failedpixel]

Raiding in general wasnt very popular in TBC. Whats your excuse for that fact?

Also the linear progression? Even for the starter raids?

It's pretty much the same reason. Attunements took time. Gearing up someone to do Kara, Gruul's, and Mag Lair took time. Then once you got them through those 3 and geared there you had to go to SSC. Then Hyjal. Then Black Temple. It didn't matter where your group was in TBC, if you couldn't carry people, and they weren't attuned, you had to go through all those instances.

This is why it wasn't popular, it was hard. But some people would say it was successful because there were reasons to do all that content.

[Deleted]

This is why it wasn't popular, it was hard. But some people would say it was successful because there were reasons to do all that content.

Then why werent WotLK raids adressing the majority? They were easy. In special Naxxramas and ICC at the end. ICC only was successfull thanks to pugs and being very easy at end, but never adressed more than 20%.

So whats your excuse for WotLK?

And no, raiding wasnt successfull in TBC. Millions of players paying content for a few.

[Tharkkun]

Where do you keep getting your "50-75% power disadvantage like you are now"???

It's about 10-12%, it was said numerous times, because of ilvl limits on both sides.

And it's reducing as you gear up, unlike in Legion.

12% my ass. Right now a 25 ilevel difference is a guaranteed 25% power difference. So fresh versus geared you're looking at 30%. Some classes can game the system by stacking gear with specific stats so you scale even better. Blizzard posted this themselves.

You can find this quote anywhere.

• Gear can still improve your character in PvP, but as an example, a 25 item level difference will result in a 2.5% difference, not a 25% difference.

- - - Updated - - -

According to Holinka:

10 ilevels = 1% increase in stats

Alpha tester are reporting different numbers, but right now there is a lot of confusion because the intent doesn't line up with what is happening on alpha.

Because Blizzard hasn't done a SINGLE numbers pass yet. None. Zilch. Zero. The only thing they have done is neutered abilities that were nearly killing someone in one hit.

Balance won't happen until all the talents and abilities are working and nailed down. You can't tune when abilities aren't working properly. Otherwise you have to re-tune them all over again.

[klaps_05]

for pvp, it doesnt matter if its 1% or 20% difference in ilevels. it should be 0. 12 years they still dont fucking get it that ppl should be equal so the only thing that will differ is skill

[ShiyoKozuki]

Gear/stat differences in PVP needs to be 0%

I can't say this enough.

- - - Updated - - -

The rich don't get richer, the better players will always beat weaker players. This is how it should be, no matter your gear, if you are good you should win.

Multi-season rank1 gladiator's like Nadagast were complaining they couldn't get past the 1300 bracket on their alts in WOD(or mop? I forget) pre conquest catch up.

Gear > skill.

[Nerxyrall]

Gear/stat differences in PVP needs to be 0%

I can't say this enough.

In my opinion, when the difference is small enough (which it seems to will be in Legion), its a nice way of still progressing your character through (only)PvP.
Otherwise PvP would only have Honor/Prestige and Rating as a progression path.

In Wow PvP was always about gear and skill. While i see the problems ensuing with to much focus on gear, when the differences are being that small you can cater to both sides of the argument. Its a compromise.

And this thread has shown there are many people on both sides. Hence a compromise should be the best solution.

[Deleted]

Edit: Oh I see it now. http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4...stion-vendors/ the bluepost.

Why does every bit of new info make me think more and more that Legion will be shitter than any previous expansion ever? They bring fancy new creature models and animations while completely destroying gameplay itself. A pile of shit covered by worthless glitter.

[Eapoe]

I think people should be rewarded by either time effort OR skill. Means, a skilled player gets instant gratification, while a matchmade player gets the best gear after playing constantly for some months.

Everyone, who actually invests effort, be it through just being engaged or skilled, should be rewarded. Thats how it actually worked before Legion. Matchmade battleground players could play for a long time to gain the highest ilvl gear available, and had something to play for.



No, it takes away the incentive for PVE players to play PVP occassionally to fill gaps in their gear.. That was actually possible in WoD. Also, it takes away the incentive for matchmade players to continue to play, as they have absolutely no extrinsic reward left.



Just a very vocal small minority. The same guys that asked to remove flying, LFR and LFD. It's not constructive, it's actually destructive, as it takes away opportunities from players.



At endgame level, after three tiers, with a difference of 120 itemlevels, people will get roflstomped by mythic raiders in battlegrounds. Is that actually justified?



I think you also have to see the size of the target group. Something also blizzard forgets. There are some thousand high level PVP players, and hundreds of thousand of matchmade PVP players. Actually, blizzard should design the game for majorities, and not minorities only.

if i would have the power to change the system, it would look like this:

1.) Matchmade battlegrounds and skirmishes are fully normalized. Gear gives no advantage.
2.) Organized battlegrounds and arena have the gear advantage.
3.) When you reach the highest level of honor talents, you will be rewarded with a high level PVP item, not just some colorful funsie.

That would solve all the problems with unjustified skill advantages and add time to skill to be rewarding.

Just for point-counter point:
1). No, that's how it works for random BG's with time being rewarded vs skill/effort, not all aspects of the game.
2). It incentivized PvE players the same to fill gaps in gear with PvP gear at the beginning of new raids because a random BG win box allows quicker acquisition of gear than 1 shot gear off a boss every week. Also for guilds that like PvP and PvE they have more of s reason to do rated BG's for quicker raid ilvl gear.
3). Don't believe anyone ever asked for flying to be gone (could be wrong though).
4). You're talking about people who are either brand new (already a disadvantage even on Live) vs people who by that time will have things like mythic dungeon gear and CM gear equaling mythic raid gear. A mythic dungeon runner can easily acquire a 730 ilvl on live when compared t a mythic raiders being 739-745, effectively only causing a .9-1.5% difference in power level.
5). It still does benefit the high rated players as they will still have the best gear, possibly even faster than mythic raiders, and will be on equal footing gear wise if raiders do PvP, which then again, comes down to skill and comp.

[Deleted]

Just for point-counter point:
1). No, that's how it works for random BG's with time being rewarded vs skill/effort, not all aspects of the game.

Thats what i talked about. And it should stay that way.

2). It incentivized PvE players the same to fill gaps in gear with PvP gear at the beginning of new raids because a random BG win box allows quicker acquisition of gear than 1 shot gear off a boss every week. Also for guilds that like PvP and PvE they have more of s reason to do rated BG's for quicker raid ilvl gear.

Still it, once again, only favors organized gameplay. And, once again, nerfs the reward schedule for matchmade players only. Blizzard literally repeats the same mistakes over and over.

3). Don't believe anyone ever asked for flying to be gone (could be wrong though).

The same people that asked to get rid of LFR also asked to remove nearly everything that was implemented since classic. Nostalgia blinds people. The idea to remove flying was one of those blind ideas. Unfortunately, blizzard listened to them. Becoming one of their biggest desasterous game design decisions ever.

4). You're talking about people who are either brand new (already a disadvantage even on Live) vs people who by that time will have things like mythic dungeon gear and CM gear equaling mythic raid gear. A mythic dungeon runner can easily acquire a 730 ilvl on live when compared t a mythic raiders being 739-745, effectively only causing a .9-1.5% difference in power level.

But matchmaking only players will not play organized mythic dungeons, as they stick to matchmaking. So no, mythic dungeons arent interesting for them. They get loot from world quests, tho. Which surely lowers the difference. But it is still there, and it has effect.

5). It still does benefit the high rated players as they will still have the best gear, possibly even faster than mythic raiders, and will be on equal footing gear wise if raiders do PvP, which then again, comes down to skill and comp.

Sure it benefits the better players. Still the matchmade players had a incentive. With the new loot system , they will not have any extrinsic reward anymore once the slot machine named strongbox dropped their last blue item. After that.. there is no item progression for them anymore.

And no, blizzard is not going to manage to lure them into organization. As people will rather stop playing than committing to the game even more. Quote Greg Street.

[Mafic]

Arena participation took a sharp dip in WotLK when gear had rating attached to it and the PVP weapons and shoulders had one of the highest ratings needed to be obtained. The casual players did not care for organized PVP like rated arena and chose to go do WotLk dungeons with the badges where they were guaranteed to get decent gear or even an epic weapon.

If Blizz goal is to move casual players away from gearing up for PVE via PVP and only dungeons like they did in WotLk then that is what is going to happen.

Just like BC arenas where PVE players did the arena content to obtain PVP weapons they could use as starting gear for rading...players currently use Ashran to obtain starter raiding gear using the PVP gear from Ashran. History repeats itself and it looks like Blizz is about to make the same mistake again...sort of.