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  1. #21
    Deleted
    I think the 2 of us are basically trying to say the same thing, just that English not being my first language I might not be making my point clear. Worst case scenario, we can agree to disagree.

    I've re-written the first post - shortened it dramatically, removed some aspects I was wrong about, added the few suggestions made in the topic. Only questionable part that remains is the section about BM monk versus Guardian druid. I still think there are some good points made there, but I will read it once more later today to see if its not just repetition of arguments already made elsewhere.

    Meanwhile, I am still looking for a kind person who would post this on the official class feedback forum once I'm satisfied with the list. I cannot do that myself being a EU player.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Small View Post
    Meanwhile, I am still looking for a kind person who would post this on the official class feedback forum once I'm satisfied with the list. I cannot do that myself being a EU player.
    Do you want it posted word-for-word? I can do it for you.

    There is a high probability of a build release later tonight, if you'd like me to wait.

  3. #23
    Deleted
    That would be very kind of you, but let's please wait just a little bit longer - I want to proof-read it once more when not in the heat of discussion. Once I find it ready for "publishing" I will do the final editing and then your help will be greatly appreciated.

    Has to be finalized Friday night at the latest due to personal obligations.

  4. #24
    Deleted
    This is as good as I can make it. If you would be so kind as to post the original post at the official class feedback forum, that would be much appreciated.

  5. #25
    Agree with having something different to isb on shared charges with purifying brew.

    It sounded good in the preview, but it seems to be turning into worse shuffle. Admittedly this might just because ISB gives too much atm, with too much uptime, that it becomes required for survival too easily (and because of 50% pb yuck). But even if it was balanced better, I feel like a heal / shield / something else could work better and fill a gap in our toolkit regarding a way to react to damage spikes.

    On a side note, I really dislike this idea of ignoring other specs in regards to feedback. Of course you shouldnt compare single abilities side by side, but talking overall toolkits / engagement of gameplay etc is fine.

    Why is "this tank is lacking compared to others" ok to say when talking about balancing numbers, but not when they are working on getting the base of each spec to acceptable levels of mechanics / engagement / fun.

    The tanks compete with each other, for raid spots and for each persons choice of which to play. The other tanks set a standard which each can be judged against. They set the acceptable levels, because if brm is lacking too much compared to them then people will reroll and take the better option. The whole thing gives context / expectations to build around.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by bubky View Post
    Why is "this tank is lacking compared to others" ok to say when talking about balancing numbers, but not when they are working on getting the base of each spec to acceptable levels of mechanics / engagement / fun.

    The tanks compete with each other, for raid spots and for each persons choice of which to play. The other tanks set a standard which each can be judged against. They set the acceptable levels, because if brm is lacking too much compared to them then people will reroll and take the better option. The whole thing gives context / expectations to build around.
    Because it fails to provide a meaningful means of fixing the problems. All it does is at best point them out which is to be honest pretty much close to worthless for the devs. Like, if they don't already see that, then either you're going to convince them but then fail to really say how Brewmaster mechanics could be improved and what the problems with those mechanics truly are, or worse fail to convince them because you aren't actually going in deep on how the mechanics are flawed and they'll just assume you want more player power without a valid reason.

    The thing is, ultimately with specific class feedback you're going to get better results because what makes Guardians fun and what makes Blood fun and what makes both Protections fun isn't necessarily what is going to make Brewmasters fun. You don't really get anything from that comparison.

    It's useful for balance because... having multiple things compare to each other in fairly analogous ways in terms of overall power is the definition of balance. But when talking about the problems of a specific class, the only real validity of looking at another class might be, at best, looking at a certain general method of design and saying it might be applicable here but that's not even perfect because the whole point of having different classes and specs is at its very core, different gameplay. Some design patterns might be applicable but that's REALLY it. At best you can use other classes as an example of design patterns, really.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Because it fails to provide a meaningful means of fixing the problems. All it does is at best point them out which is to be honest pretty much close to worthless for the devs. Like, if they don't already see that, then either you're going to convince them but then fail to really say how Brewmaster mechanics could be improved and what the problems with those mechanics truly are, or worse fail to convince them because you aren't actually going in deep on how the mechanics are flawed and they'll just assume you want more player power without a valid reason.

    The thing is, ultimately with specific class feedback you're going to get better results because what makes Guardians fun and what makes Blood fun and what makes both Protections fun isn't necessarily what is going to make Brewmasters fun. You don't really get anything from that comparison.

    It's useful for balance because... having multiple things compare to each other in fairly analogous ways in terms of overall power is the definition of balance. But when talking about the problems of a specific class, the only real validity of looking at another class might be, at best, looking at a certain general method of design and saying it might be applicable here but that's not even perfect because the whole point of having different classes and specs is at its very core, different gameplay. Some design patterns might be applicable but that's REALLY it. At best you can use other classes as an example of design patterns, really.
    I'm sorry to be blunt, but it's not our job to do anything beyond point out the flaws, that's why it's called testing not developing. Blizzard has a whole team of people who get paid good money to design classes. When doing software development, anything beyond "it suXXors" is valid feedback. Most customers aren't developers so getting ideas from them is great when it happens, to but to expect that to be the only feedback you get is asinine and wildly unrealistic. In fact, the feedback you're most likely to get is going to be along the lines of, "this isn't working here, but the direction your heading over there is great" which is going to be the equivalent to class comparisons. It's like grabbing a random person off the street and asking for feedback about a sample of your new beer, very few people are going to be able to actually tell you what exactly they don't like about it and what you should be doing in your brewing process to make it better. They may not be able to tell you how to make it better, but they can certainly tell you that what you're currently doing isn't working so that you can do your job and try to come up with something better.

    Your opinion of how you think feedback should be given is fine, but constantly admonishing people about their feedback and opinions is uncalled for.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolved View Post
    I'm sorry to be blunt, but it's not our job to do anything beyond point out the flaws, that's why it's called testing not developing.
    yeah and using class comparisons is the wrong way to do it

    Quote Originally Posted by Evolved View Post
    Your opinion of how you think feedback should be given is fine, but constantly admonishing people about their feedback and opinions is uncalled for.
    If it's bad feedback, I'm going to call it out as bad feedback because it's the right thing to do and I care about the spec. I am in a unique position to actually have an understanding of what kinds of feedback devs are looking for because I'm trained in this stuff. Opinions aren't all equal. If you're uncomfortable with it, put me on ignore.

    I honestly don't care if you dislike it.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    yeah and using class comparisons is the wrong way to do it

    If it's bad feedback, I'm going to call it out as bad feedback because it's the right thing to do and I care about the spec. I am in a unique position to actually have an understanding of what kinds of feedback devs are looking for because I'm trained in this stuff. Opinions aren't all equal. If you're uncomfortable with it, put me on ignore.

    I honestly don't care if you dislike it.
    Class comparisons may not be the best way to do it, but it's not wrong.

    You're unique? Do you seriously think you're the only person who's done development work? Last I checked, you're a nobody and certainly in no position to be dictating right and wrong to people who have differing opinions. Everyone here is free to post opinions and discuss the Monk class without being berated by someone with a superiority complex constantly derailing everything into an argument about how people are "doing it wrong" when it comes to posting opinions.
    Last edited by Evolved; 2016-04-22 at 07:21 PM.

  10. #30
    I dont really agree with your concept of what constitutes useful feedback (to me pointing out problems is the best you can reasonably expect to get out of it, not "close to worthless"). Although the correct answer would be up to blizzard and what they find useful.

    Either way I feel like enough brm discussion threads have been derailed on this topic. Telling people they are going about giving feedback the wrong way is probably the wrong way to go about having a brm discussion thread, and you could start a seperate topic about it instead.

    More on topic, regarding:

    Quote Originally Posted by Small View Post
    [*]make it so that out mastery is effective not only against melee hits. Our PTR mastery and Celestial Fortune could easily be swapped around – make it so that our mastery gives a healing taken increase and make it so that we get a stacking dodge buff of a fixed value. This way mastery becomes more universal.
    Does it really matter which stat gives which effect? Or did you want crit to do something different then?
    Maybe I'm not understanding correctly.

    Also I agree on Nizauo seeming underwhelming although I find it slightly amusing that I do. Reskinning Xuen to fit the spec more is an obvious / positive change but it just makes me expect more from it whereas before I was fine with it as a dps cd option.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolved View Post
    Class comparisons may not be the best way to do it, but it's not wrong.
    If it's not optimal methodolgy, then yeah it's wrong. At least it can be argued as such, when you consider that we're on the clock and every post Blizzard needs to translate to really get to the meat of the feedback wastes time.

    You're unique?
    Nope. I said I was in a unique position. Which is a bit hyperbolic but ultimately it's a valid point that I'm in an interesting grey area of community management, being a player, and being a developer. Not a lot of people can say that. You might need some reading comprehension mate lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evolved View Post
    Last I checked, you're a nobody and certainly in no position to be dictating right and wrong to people who have differing opinions.
    I mean, if you want to think that, that's fine. But you might want to check the sticky at the top of the forum. And honestly that's not even the only thing. I might not be very famous, or famous at all really, but I am not just some random person in the community. It's a bit funny to hear that from someone who... I've really only noticed recently, particularly being excessively defensive over their feedback and the criticisms I've levied against the general style of negative feedback being bad. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bubky View Post
    I dont really agree with your concept of what constitutes useful feedback (to me pointing out problems is the best you can reasonably expect to get out of it, not "close to worthless"). Although the correct answer would be up to blizzard and what they find useful.

    Either way I feel like enough brm discussion threads have been derailed on this topic. Telling people they are going about giving feedback the wrong way is probably the wrong way to go about having a brm discussion thread, and you could start a seperate topic about it instead.
    The trouble comes from what problems you're pointing out. Saying that bears have more buttons than brewmasters do, to cite the example of this thread, doesn't really say anything. The problems are what those buttons are meant to counter and whether brewmaster has that capacity already with fewer buttons, or if it needs more to enable such. But that doesn't require looking at different classes. It requires analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the one class and whether its current kit is suitable or not. And as I said, my methodology has seen approval by Blizzard. It's something that works and works effectively.

    I can appreciate that stance, it is a bit deraily. I think however that it's an important point to bring up, because there's a lot of discussion that's off base and... really not useful. Or worse, actively toxic. This will be my last post on it, at any rate, because I've said what I've had to say and I'm honestly kinda tired of the abuse from Evolved.

  12. #32
    Your post is up here.

    A lot of the format didn't take, but I tried to fix it as well as I could.

    Let me know if you need anything edited.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    The problems are what those buttons are meant to counter and whether brewmaster has that capacity already with fewer buttons, or if it needs more to enable such.
    Now that makes me feel that you didn't really dig into what I wrote (or meant to write). I specifically highlighted that the comparison with a guardian druid is not meant to point out that BM mechanics aren't sufficient to deal with whatever we get to face (they aren't, but that's a balance issue). It was meant to show that, regardless of how efficient our tool(s) are, they are not entertaining to play with. Or, more specifically, not equally entertaining as those of a different class.
    I still believe this justifies the comparison. It's better than saying "BM is boring, please fix", it's also better than suggesting new abilities, it makes for a simple comparison with a class already designed by the same group of people who will tune monk tanks.

    Does it really matter which stat gives which effect? Or did you want crit to do something different then?
    I was thinking more along the line of mastery giving an increase to healing taken equal to the percentage. You have 10% mastery, any healing you take is increased by 10%. Not the "get 100% more healing or not" situation we are currently at on PTR. It makes for more controlled healing and helps with all sorts of damage taken. It could also create some interesting options, a mastery on-use trinket could be very powerful etc. I didn't think about what crit could do for us, defensively.
    It's not the biggest concern either way.

    Your post is up here.
    Thank you very much, very kind. I was thinking the first 2 paragraphs, the introduction, could be copied as well, but it's no big deal.


    Closing words from me, as I will be traveling for a while now - thanks a lot to everyone who contributed. We even managed to keep the topic mostly constructive and civil, so that's a win against the internet right there!

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Small View Post
    Now that makes me feel that you didn't really dig into what I wrote (or meant to write). I specifically highlighted that the comparison with a guardian druid is not meant to point out that BM mechanics aren't sufficient to deal with whatever we get to face (they aren't, but that's a balance issue). It was meant to show that, regardless of how efficient our tool(s) are, they are not entertaining to play with. Or, more specifically, not equally entertaining as those of a different class.
    yes and the comparison doesn't really provide anything other than what I said before, which is an example of a very general dynamic of "multiple buttons for multiple situations / proactive gameplay feels fun," on top of potential miscommunication on what you're trying to say. It doesn't provide anything more than that. You could have made the same exact point without mentioning druids at all. I don't think it adds much to your point and I think in general it also has a very strong capacity to act as a trap for people who don't think their feedback through as much as others.

    Were I a dev on class design, I'd ask you to go more in detail about Brewmasters and why the specific mechanics there aren't fun, not about the differences between them and druids... because ultimately the feedback is for Brewmasters and druids aren't really relevant save as an example of something you like better.

    I mean ultimately you can do whatever you want. What I say is mainly my thoughts on feedback from a position of someone who has to actively deal with it in the context of game design. It's something that I try and get people to get on board with but really it's not anyone's decision to do so but their own.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Small View Post
    Thank you very much, very kind. I was thinking the first 2 paragraphs, the introduction, could be copied as well, but it's no big deal.
    Updated it for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Were I a dev on class design, I'd ask you to go more in detail about Brewmasters and why the specific mechanics there aren't fun, not about the differences between them and druids... because ultimately the feedback is for Brewmasters and druids aren't really relevant save as an example of something you like better.
    This might be true if 'bring the class, not the player' wasn't alive, well, and looming over every guild that intends to be top 500+.

    If a tank isn't in-line in usefulness with every other tank, they don't get played and they certainly don't get into raids unless there's no other option. If a fight requires something that a tank cannot perform, or perform as well as another tank, they're probably going to be riding pine until everything is on farm.

  16. #36
    Deleted
    I'd ask you to go more in detail about Brewmasters and why the specific mechanics there aren't fun, not about the differences between them and druids
    See, this is exactly the point - I couldn't really meed your expectations if you asked me to do that, simply because there are brewmaster specific mechanics to go more in detail about. In the context of what this argument is about, there is one, maybe two mechanics. It works (it can work if balanced). But that just doesn't feel sufficiently entertaining.

    Admittedly, I could then say - please add more abilities/buttons and be done with it. Instead I choose to give more context, I point out how what I'd like is not impossible and not against the Legion tanking paradigm. That makes the feedback more accurate.

    Lastly, with regards to "proactive gameplay feels fun" - that's really what I'm saying, even if it is a general dynamic. All the arguments that follow are to show that it is a very real concern and not a feeling common for all tank classes.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Small View Post
    See, this is exactly the point - I couldn't really meed your expectations if you asked me to do that, simply because there are brewmaster specific mechanics to go more in detail about. In the context of what this argument is about, there is one, maybe two mechanics. It works (it can work if balanced). But that just doesn't feel sufficiently entertaining.

    Admittedly, I could then say - please add more abilities/buttons and be done with it. Instead I choose to give more context, I point out how what I'd like is not impossible and not against the Legion tanking paradigm. That makes the feedback more accurate.

    Lastly, with regards to "proactive gameplay feels fun" - that's really what I'm saying, even if it is a general dynamic. All the arguments that follow are to show that it is a very real concern and not a feeling common for all tank classes.
    The problem there is that as a dev, that's the sort of information I need in order to be able to make a more educated decision on what needs changing. If the current abilities don't feel fun, I need to learn why in a more detailed way than "I don't like the design direction of them". If you can't talk about why these abilities don't work and don't feel fun, but only that you like proactive gameplay, I'm more likely to chalk your feedback up to you just not liking the gameplay direction of brewmasters rather than a more pointed critique on the abilities. Brewmasters in a lot of ways have been very reactive tanks with the stagger mechanic. We had a lot of buttons and a chunk of those were proactive or hybrid tools, but our core kit is reactive.

    This feedback here is more or less able to be boiled down to "Change how our core kit fundamentally works so we get something I consider to be better gameplay." Even if I agreed with that, it's basically in the same boat as "revert the changes" as feedback... which is to say, is pretty impractical to actually do. Not unless you just ask for more buttons but even then you again come into the problem of the devs needing to then justify adding that much more power to the spec, which goes back to the problem of again, just looking purely at Brewmasters to determine if a new button is necessary... because just adding buttons requires a very very exhaustive balancing sweep. That might be what's necessary but like everyone in the feedback process you need to play ball with designer expectations and needs.

    The context is... okay, but it does lend itself to making your argument sound just a bit more like "make brewmasters guardians" than I'm at least comfortable with. I see what you're doing, or trying to do. I just don't see it as effective. They have a vision for the overall gameplay of the spec. If you dislike the general trend of it (reactive vs proactive), that's ultimately on you to prove that it's bad and that is quite the uphill battle. One I don't think this feedback is sufficient in arguing.

  18. #38
    Herald of the Titans Babylonius's Avatar
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    Because this thread is on the verge of devolving into a philosophical discussion about how to give feedback, I am on the verge of closing it since we don't need two threads derailed from their original purpose. If you'd like to discuss the OPs initial post then do so here, that does include some discussion about how to give the best available feedback. If you want to discuss the greater Brewmaster in Legion, then do it in the other thread.

    If you have a better version of feedback, then write it, this thread is not about teaching others to give better feedback. Do not let the issues of the other thread bleed over here. Discussion of how best to give feedback is somewhat relevant here.
    Last edited by Babylonius; 2016-04-23 at 11:22 AM.
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  19. #39
    I'm going to preface what I'm about to comment on with this: I do not like the current iteration of ISB and 50% Purify. Additionally, I think the current energy cost/CD timing of abilities causes issues with our rotation of TP/KS/BoK. I'm in the alpha and as of right now I feel like I'm just slowly dying throughout a fight and have no real way of saving myself when my health reaches a certain point. Now, having said that, I'd like to highlight a few things from your original post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Small View Post
    • There is absolutely no trade-off between playing offensive and defensive. Attacks and defense never share the same resource, they are entirely unrelated. As an indirect consequence, it is possible to play well and not be able to get Active Mitigation up for when a mechanic requires it – you Ironskin your way through incoming damage, big hit is coming, but you just happen not to have Ironskin charge available. I know this is not the case for guardian druids and protection warriors, as you can pool some rage in preparation for such situation. I believe same goes for remaining tank classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Small View Post
    • Our “rotation”. Two separate issues raised here. First of all, it is almost exactly the same as in the first bullet-point - no matter what tanking situation we're at (single target, multiple opponents stacked, few targets apart), the best course of action is to use the same abilities. Add insult to injury, other than using Keg Smash as much as possible, it hardly matters which other abilities we use. There are no buffs nor debuffs to maintain, no procs (unless talented for, but it just happens to be the worst possible option from the talent row). Second of all, many players have raised the issue of the “rotation” being cluncky and awkward. I personally don't necessarily agree with that, I don't think empty GCDs are a bad thing as such plus haste will change this over time. Notwithstanding, our “rotation” severely lacks some flavor, something to make us stay on our toes. At the same time, there are so many passive effects going on in the background, that it is honestly hard to list them all down. Maybe shifting some mechanics from passive to on-use could help.
    I disagree with this, actually. If we look at the artifacts and talents, there is definitely a benefit to playing "offensively," by increasing the amount of Keg Smashes, Tiger Palms, Breath of Fires, and Blackout Kicks.

    • Dragonfire Brew: Breath of Fire surrounds you with flame...and reduces damage by 8% for 8 secs
    • Dark Side of the Moon: Activating Blackout Kick reduces damage of the next auto attack by 20%
    • Fortified Mind: Keg Smash and Tiger Palm reduce the cooldown of Fortified Brew
    • Secret Ingredients: Tiger Palm has a 50% chance to reset the cooldown of Keg Smash

    I totally get what they're going for. Don't consider it as not having a resource for our defensives, but we use abilities to slowly knock down the CD on Fortified Brew. Do I think it's working at the moment? No. If we lowered how much damage was staggered and increased purify back to 100%, I think it would be better.

    To be completely honest, I think right now the issue lies with ISB, Purify, and the fact that we can't remove a ticking debuff.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by kjazetti View Post
    • Dragonfire Brew: Breath of Fire surrounds you with flame...and reduces damage by 8% for 8 secs
    • Dark Side of the Moon: Activating Blackout Kick reduces damage of the next auto attack by 20%
    • Fortified Mind: Keg Smash and Tiger Palm reduce the cooldown of Fortified Brew
    • Secret Ingredients: Tiger Palm has a 50% chance to reset the cooldown of Keg Smash
    You've missed his point. None of these abilities compete with defensive abilities in our rotation, they power them. "Have a tight rotation that keeps Keg Smash on cooldown, maximizes tiger palms, blackout strikes, and breath of fire" is the optimal way to play because it maximizes BOTH offensive and defensive resource availability. In fact this doesn't really change regardless of talent setup, you just add "fill with RJW", "keep Chi Wave/Burst on CD" and "make sure you utilize secret ingredient procs" when those talents are in play.

    Contrast this to Chi-Explosion. Chi ex at 2 is the most efficient for damage, but you will sometimes use it at 3 for less efficient damage to purify, you must also compete with guard for chi as an offensive/defensive tradeoff and time it to keep chi available for defensive reasons. If it were a more meaningful tradeoff, higher chi-ex especially in AoE compete's with shuffle uptime within itself, and could be an offense vs defense tradeoff that happens in fight. This doesn't happen on alpha. On alpha, all of your choices for playstyle and rotation are made before the fight begins, there are no thinking dynamics within the fight itself, and the evidence of this is that you can write a description of optimal brewmaster play in every circumstance in 6 sentences:

    • Maximize Brew availability by keeping Keg Smash on cooldown, using tiger palm to avoid energy capping, and maximizing your lvl 45 talent.
    • Maintain the highest possible uptime on Ironskin Brew, purify only when in immediate danger of being killed by your stagger.
    • Keep Blackout Strike, Breath of Fire, and your lvl 15 talent on cooldown to maintain your auxiliary defenses, fill empty GCDs with Rushing Jade Wind if you have taken it.
    • Use Fort Brew, Zen Med, and your lvl 75 talent against large predictable damage spikes.
    • Scramble for gift of the ox orbs when health is low.
    • Pray both the healers and RNGesus look upon you favorably.

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