[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[The Madgod]

How about we give our Alpha feedback our way, and you give your Alpha feedback your way? Either way, stop trying to constantly scold people, it's just as detrimental to the community. If Blizzard doesn't like the negativity, they could minimize it at any time with a simple fix called communication.

Because your way of feedback is not useful and just perpetuates the problems that you are complaining about. And I care about the spec. That's why I go out of my way to show people what proper feedback is, try and explain the mindsets of proper feedback to them. The more people are aware of these things the less crap Blizzard has to sift through to find something that's actually useful. I might not be doing a good job of it with the problem cases because, well, problem cases, but it's certainly cathartic to chew them out when I've been unable to for a long time.

And before you say that yours is equally as good, I've actually gotten positive responses from devs. I have seen them say they like what I have to say, even though I voice concerns. Can you make that claim? Can you truly say your method has yielded positive response from devs?

Scolding people who deserve to be scolded is important to actually creating a good community. You don't get a healthy community by letting toxic behavior propagate. The things I'm doing are making you uncomfortable. Being said, you being uncomfortable doesn't inherently mean it's bad for the community. These aren't really comparable things. I know what I'm doing.

And that would never work lol. People who are negative WANT to be negative. Because they have sunk into that mindset, they try and justify it. If Blizzard started communicating they'd just focus more on how shit the changes are to them and circlejerk about that instead. That's not how people behave. I just want to know what sort of internet you think this is because people are never so clean as that.

Things devolve into negativity due to zero communication or acknowledgement from build to build.

Things devolve into negativity when negativity is allowed to propagate and when people lack the mindfulness necessary to appreciate when they might be slipping into unhealthy behavior.

Ignoring people who are volunteering personal time and effort towards making your game better isn't conducive to preventing negativity. Something as simple as "Hey, we hear you and we'll look into ways to make it better when we do a pass for your class" is far more effective than deafening silence. If you want people to test your game for you and you want their feedback and ideas, act like a proper developer and communicate with those people. (Not useless Twitter posts) People banding together to support each other in frustration/sorrow/whatever is always better than the alternative.

Frankly, the error mostly lies with the community on this. Dev communication helps alleviate some of the causes but the ultimate cause is a lack of meta-thinking and executive function. Negativity would be there even if Blizzard communicated more. It'd just be focused on how the changes are bad instead of the changes aren't being explained and are bad. The problem would still persist and that problem is a lack of an ability to check one's own behavior to determine if it's veering into unhealthy territory.

- - - Updated - - -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

You should be able to create your own copy from that and just remove whatever you don't need or filter down to what you're interested in. There are entries for different levels of haste (up to 50%), different proc chances (30-50% in 5% steps), different numbers for brew recharge per TP (1 or 2; the latter represents the 4p bonus) and different proc chances for Face Palm (0% and 45%, so basically 0/3 and 3/3 of that trait). For every parameter point I made several iterations and averaged the results (how many brew charges you have available in a 10min fight, how often you use KS and how often you use TP).

Cheers mate, thanks!

[Evolved]

Because your way of feedback is not useful and just perpetuates the problems that you are complaining about. And I care about the spec. That's why I go out of my way to show people what proper feedback is, try and explain the mindsets of proper feedback to them. The more people are aware of these things the less crap Blizzard has to sift through to find something that's actually useful.

And before you say that yours is equally as good, I've actually gotten positive responses from devs. I have seen them say they like what I have to say, even though I voice concerns. Can you make that claim? Can you truly say your method has yielded positive response from devs?

Scolding people who deserve to be scolded is important to actually creating a good community. You don't get a healthy community by letting toxic behavior propagate. The things I'm doing are making you uncomfortable. You being uncomfortable doesn't inherently mean it's bad for the community. I know what I'm doing.

And that would never work lol. The moment they say that, everyone would have a shitfit because people can't take responsibility for their behavior. For a lot of people who have these problems, they don't even see it as a problem. Like seriously, what internet do you post on because your assumptions of the behavior of anonymous people are pretty off-base. That's not how people behave. People get uncomfortable when you point out flawed behavior of theirs. That's just how it works.

Things devolve into negativity when negativity is allowed to propagate and when people lack the mindfulness necessary to appreciate when they might be slipping into unhealthy behavior.

My, aren't you so special. All that boasting, and you've been testing Alpha for how long now? You posted on a form of social media and got a response, you are so great. Unhealthy behavior is being overly obsessed with other people's feedback and constantly berating them for it. It's quite clear that you're not seeing your own problems. Your opinion isn't any better than anyone else, so step off your skyscraper sized high horse. Your behavior is toxic and has propagated into multiple pages of bickering, clearly you don't know what you're doing.

[Babylonius]

It may surprise you, but I don't play Brewmaster. My understanding of Brewmaster was gone long ago.

My point was that the negative posts that were and are abounding, do nothing to explain to me, or anyone else WHY there is a problem. I am trying to intervene in the thread because it was turning into who can be the as negative as possible. I was getting report after report from people complaining that others are being negative and not constructive.

Allow me to cut to the chase and put on the Moderator hat:
I have created a thread for the purpose of rants and negative posts. Any post in any of these threads that I feel is unconstructive or purely negative, will be deleted. If it continues to get out of hand then I will have to close these threads until we're closer to Legion's release.

[Evolved]

This is maybe true, but i don't like the idea of using a AE talent a whole expansion only to get a "smooth" rotation. Our Alpha stand is near the current Protection Paladin > "Press whatever is ready, no matter if it's a AoE or ST ability, just to do anything" < only difference is, that paladins don't have to waste a talent for this kind of gameplay.
I don't like it at all. It may matches the paladin style, but we are monks, not paladins.

Oh, I wasn't saying it was a good thing, just that you can fill the GCD's with something usually. I actually agree with it not being particularly fun to do.

I don't know if it was intentional, but RJW spell effects are back in full effect and are no longer half transparent.

[The Madgod]

My, aren't you so special. All that boasting, and you've been testing Alpha for how long now? You posted on a form of social media and got a response, you are so great. Unhealthy behavior is being overly obsessed with other people's feedback and constantly berating them for it. It's quite clear that you're not seeing your own problems. Your opinion isn't any better than anyone else, so step off your skyscraper sized high horse. Your behavior is toxic and has propagated into multiple pages of bickering, clearly you don't know what you're doing.

I'm going to respect Babs' post and not go too deep into this response, but ultimately man, I'm just telling what I believe to be the truth. That you have to resort to personal attacks against me in your posts says more about your position than mine.

If you want to respond, feel free, but I'm no longer going to legitimize your attitude with a response.

[Shamanberry]

Being argumentative, even harsh is fine - as long as there's signal in the noise.

Being vague, either on the positive or negative, is problematic. Saying "X is fine, get good" is as harmful as saying "X is broken, WTFBLIZZ". Saying "just wait it out, see what happens, stop whining" is just as bad as saying "everything is broken and the sky is falling and everyone is going to unsub if this isn't fixed in 5 minutes".

The problem with being harsh is that lashing out is the most common tool of someone who doesn't actually know what they're talking about. That may not be you, but you have to have a stronger argument to make it obvious that what you're saying is worth reading. A lot of people are just saying "stuff's broke", and leaving it at that. That's not feedback. It's just noise.


Back on topic:

I'm not sure people that are talking about 100% uptime on ISB are being totally fair. Realistically speaking, if you're keeping 100% ISB uptime, you're not purifying. If you stack haste (sacrificing other stats in the process), you can mash TP/KS faster and get more uptime, but even with Black Ox Brew and perfect energy/KS/Brew utilization, you're looking at maybe a minute of proper uptime, followed by basically working on building up/drinking your last charge of brew to maintain ISB. If you purify in there, it's just not doable.

In actual raid testing, I've found that it doesn't take long at all to hit the levels of stagger that would make purify a better button than ISB for burst reduction (aside from large "kill the tank" boss abilities, of course).

I agree that the spec is too passive, but I find that to be the result of the AM being a (nearly) mathematically solvable mechanic, and the abundance of RNG (even if smoothed RNG) that we rely on with no means of effecting the outcome other than gearing. The active mechanic of the spec is mostly dancing for orbs, and (as I detailed in my feedback post on the alpha forums), dancing for orbs is extremely fight mechanic dependent. With that being our only truly active survival tool, the spec works on fights where it works, but quickly falls off on fights where the mechanics dictate your orbs not always be usable when needed.

[stross01]

I'm not sure people that are talking about 100% uptime on ISB are being totally fair. Realistically speaking, if you're keeping 100% ISB uptime, you're not purifying. If you stack haste (sacrificing other stats in the process), you can mash TP/KS faster and get more uptime, but even with Black Ox Brew and perfect energy/KS/Brew utilization, you're looking at maybe a minute of proper uptime, followed by basically working on building up/drinking your last charge of brew to maintain ISB. If you purify in there, it's just not doable.

The way you're describing here (with Black Ox Brew) is a copy/paste of how Unholy DK works with Necrotic Plague: spam Festering Strike enough to give Necrotic Plague the duration to last until your next Unholy Blight. After you've achieved this, you can spam whatever is best until the end of that Necrotic Plague and the rotation begins again.

Having so much invested into one small concept is pretty punishing considering if Ironskin Brew drops, either from misplay or design, you're likely going to die in the next few hits. 70% of our total 'reduction' is from Ironskin Brew. 35% passive, 40%+10% Ironskin Brew + set bonus.

One thing I noticed while watching Slootbag's debacle is that I feel sorry for any monk that dies and gets a battle rezz. Lets just say you have 1 charge when you die. You come back with 0 energy and 21 seconds until your next brew comes up. If you need to tank right away, you're probably going to just eat shit instantly.

[fringemoo]

....
Also that formula is prior to tuning, which they can increase the proc chance if they so wish.
Edit:
I created a few what-ifs and changing the 75% of hit take to say 100% would bring the 100% proc rate as low as 35% of HP hit and as high as 50% of HP hit.

Granted, my issue is that in simplistic terms they tie the chance of an orb spawning to the size of the hit, it makes much more sense to only account for your hp/max and add an ICD. All other configurations that depend on the size of the specific hit are flawed in the same way, they can't guarantee an orb when you most need it.

Worse yet, and that part I'm not sure of (since they didn't mention it), but is it the size of the hit pre-mitigation / absorbs or post, if former, having an absorb / using a CD reduces the chance of an orb spawning.

[Evolved]

If you want to respond, feel free, but I'm no longer going to legitimize your attitude with a response.

Great, hopefully that means we can get back to legitimate posts that aren't filled with self promotion and "l'm right because I just started 2 du gamze desnz".

One thing I noticed while watching Slootbag's debacle is that I feel sorry for any monk that dies and gets a battle rezz. Lets just say you have 1 charge when you die. You come back with 0 energy and 21 seconds until your next brew comes up. If you need to tank right away, you're probably going to just eat shit instantly.

That's a good point. I shutter at reminders of pre-ilvl P3 Velhari rez/taunt without resolve/cooldowns. I really can't think of a way to get around the need of buffing base mitigation and toning down ISB. ISB needs to do something beyond sit there in the background like a beefed up shuffle. Make it pulse an aura, give it a thorns like effect, something.

Also that formula is prior to tuning, which they can increase the proc chance if they so wish.
Edit:
I created a few what-ifs and changing the 75% of hit take to say 100% would bring the 100% proc rate as low as 35% of HP hit and as high as 50% of HP hit.

That spawn formula definitely explains the ability to go from 100%-0% with a single orb spawn on trash packs. I can't imagine them keeping the current formula, as it's entirely too unpredictable and occasionally nearly useless.

[stross01]

I actually made a spreadsheet to show the proc rate. Chance to proc reaches 100% at about 60% damage hit. However those are VERY RARE even by today's standards.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Also that formula is prior to tuning, which they can increase the proc chance if they so wish.

Edit:

I created a few what-ifs and changing the 75% of hit take to say 100% would bring the 100% proc rate as low as 35% of HP hit and as high as 50% of HP hit.

Does this mean that every hit below 60% is supposed to spawn an orb?

Sorry, I hate graphs.

[Hinalover]

Does this mean that every hit below 60% is supposed to spawn an orb?

Sorry, I hate graphs.

Backwards. Any single hit that does MORE than 60% of one's health will have a guaranteed orb spawning. Anything less than that will have a chance to spawn. If the hit brings the player CLOSER to 0% HP, then you will have an increased chance to proc an orb.

[stross01]

Backwards. Any single hit that does MORE than 60% of one's health will have a guaranteed orb spawning. Anything less than that will have a chance to spawn. If the hit brings the player CLOSER to 0% HP, then you will have an increased chance to proc an orb.

The bleak reality of the numbers makes it more bleak than my opinion of the ability, which is amazing.

They don't need to keep the WUE-esque effects going. They're pretty boring to begin with.

[Inuyaki]

I DO agree that we should give positive feedback, that's why all brewmasters DID that in the beginning. But obviously nothing changed and we have no signs that it will change.
If positive criticism does nothing, it's normal to resort to other things. You practically condemn any national uprising. And many of them were necessary and good in the end.

Mod Edit: Please refrain from personal attacks and name calling.

[celinamuna]

Tbh the issue is that blizzard are fairly set on some things and don't plan on changing a lot of things already.

[Babylonius]

I DO agree that we should give positive feedback, that's why all brewmasters DID that in the beginning. But obviously nothing changed and we have no signs that it will change.
If positive criticism does nothing, it's normal to resort to other things. You practically condemn any national uprising. And many of them were necessary and good in the end.

I agree that it is normal to get frustrated. However, to compare this to a national uprising is exceptional grandstanding. This is video game, not Syria. Blizzard changing the spec in a way that displeases you, or not making the changes you like, isn't quite the same as the Arab Spring or the Bolshevik Revolution.

And regardless of ridiculous analogies. This isn't the place for venting those frustrations. You have the rant thread where you can scream and yell and be angry at Blizzard all you want. This is a thread for meaningful discussion, and overtly vague and negative posts are not discussion.

[bubky]

Is anyone else going to miss zen sphere? I know it was a bit clunky but I guess I enjoyed the option of having something extra to micromanage. I would have rather they replaced chi wave instead since that was the talent I picked when I wanted a less involved playstyle (ie it generally does stuff without me paying much attention).

Also regarding Elusive Brew. I dunno if they have gone into thier design philosophy on this or not, but if PB vs ISB is meant to be a meaningful / balanced choice, then having a talent that buffs only one side seems odd to me.

But then I see that whole tier of talents as "this made sense as random placeholder talents but now im worried they are staying" level.

[Deleted]

Backwards. Any single hit that does MORE than 60% of one's health will have a guaranteed orb spawning.

Current health or max health?

[Cubcake]

I'm not in the alpha unfortunately but I have been trying to follow the news, updates, changes, and feedback from fellow brewmaster monks. Given the amount of passives we have tied into our survivability, there are a few things I would love to see changed or implemented. Since I am not in the alpha, I don't have a feel for the class to really base how viable these would be, but in theory, I think they could be good ideas to keep things interesting. As a 13/13M brewmaster currently who hardly plays alts because of how much they love the current iteration of the class, I definitely don't want to be switching mains, but if things aren't changed I foresee myself playing everything but a brewmaster in Legion, which is a major bummer.

Stagger needs to be changed to work against piercing bosses. Maybe at a reduced rate (like 50% or something since with the ISB changes, I could see it being OP in that instance), but if I am unable to stagger something like Manno's Glaive Combo, I foresee us having major issues by design on certain fights. It's already have nightmares not dodging boss attacks when EBrew is up currently, I would really like to not have a similar issue again since it's a design flaw imo.

Flaming Keg (Rework this trait to be a passive with an on use bonus.)
Instant
1 minute cooldown
Passive: This trait allows Keg Smash to refresh the duration of Breath of Fire.
On Use: You instantly throw a keg causing an explosion of fire. This applies a increased version of BOF to all targets within 8 yards of your location, ticking for 100% additional damage and reduces the effectiveness of all enemy attacks by 10% for 8 seconds. (or whatever damage reduction it is now in Alpha)

Chi Explosion*
Instant
40 energy (or just a CD due to the energy issues I am currently reading about)
15 second cooldown
40 yard range
You focus your inner Chi causing your target and all enemies within an additional 15 yards to explode for X initial damage, X damage over time, and take 10% increased damage for 6 seconds. This is a high threat ability. (the extra damage increase is debatable)

Purifying Brew
Instant
25 energy cost
20 second cooldown
Purifying Brew no longer shares charges with ISB and now clears 100% of staggered damage. (yes, the energy cost means would we not be able to clear immediately without planning, which is fine imo)

Sober Up!**
Active Mitigation (shares charges with ISB)
Instant
45 second cooldown
You call upon the power of Niuzao allowing you to inhale all healing orbs within 40 yards of your current location. Inhaled healing orbs temporarily sober you up granting you 15% armor and 20% stagger for 6 seconds. Additional, inhaled healing orbs heal for 50% less than when picked up manually but also grant an absorb shield for 150% of the amount healed and a heal over time for 25% of the initial heal for 10 seconds.
___________________________________________________

*I think reworking Chi Explosion to something of this effect would give us not only a debuff to try and prioritize, but the ability to pick up ranged adds that we need and something that it also good in both single target and AOE situations. This would also take the place of us crying for Dizzying Haze back. In addition, this would also be something we would try to use on CD but something we might be forced to hold for add spawns, and knowing when to hold and ability is one way to really help separate the good players from the bad.

**I believe having an another active mitigation option with a longer CD than ISB will force more engaging gameplay since there will be an overlap of the two where a choice will need to be made. I am fine with ISB being the general go-to maintenance buff to keep up but having this option would give us a equally as strong but reactive AM of sorts. Since it shares a CD with ISB, has a longer recharge timer, offers less stagger, and is also our heal, I don't think this would be abused because the passive 60% stagger should be better baseline to maintain UNLESS you have low HP. The absorb shield should be based on the amount actually healed so using it near full health is a waste. The HOT should be based on the amount healed. In this scenario the HOT might seem op, but if you're using this when intended, you should be getting chunked pretty hard. The absorb shield would likely not last the full 10 second duration but give your heals a sec to catch up. The 25% heal over time affect WOULD continue for the full duration so you would gain some effective self heals after the absorb shield is gone as well, despite is being a relatively low amount. (keep in mind, I am not a numbers guy, but the general idea behind it is what I like).

Also, the Sober Up ability would allow up to snag those distant orbs we can't get allowing us to gain some self healing ability that isn't heavily RNG based. With the spawn locations of the orbs now, it's ridiculous and I can only imagine the nightmares on Tyrant style fights. With how the orbs currently spawn live, it still causes issues with Tyrant.. and they are spawning right on my ass. Having to run 8-15 yards (or whatever it is) is terrible. The would also give us the Guard feel we are used to with the conversion of the healing into an absorb shield and I personally feel self heals and absorbs are a huge part of the brewmaster class fantasy.

[Deleted]

I was thinking as a solution for stagger ticking on when out of combat, to either let purify remove all stagger when out of combat (seemed to make most sense, but might be hard to program), or add 'cleansing brew: clear up all stagger after combat has finished, shares charges with ISB/PB'. So simply give use something that removes all stagger, shares charges with the other abilities, and only works out of combat

[Evolved]

Is anyone else going to miss zen sphere? I know it was a bit clunky but I guess I enjoyed the option of having something extra to micromanage. I would have rather they replaced chi wave instead since that was the talent I picked when I wanted a less involved playstyle (ie it generally does stuff without me paying much attention).

Also regarding Elusive Brew. I dunno if they have gone into thier design philosophy on this or not, but if PB vs ISB is meant to be a meaningful / balanced choice, then having a talent that buffs only one side seems odd to me.

But then I see that whole tier of talents as "this made sense as random placeholder talents but now im worried they are staying" level.

I don't miss the micro managing of it, but it was something fun to take and try to push yourself. The graphic was also very nice and I hate when graphical assets are removed.