[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Taeldorian]

They could at least add effects to the blessings via "Blessings of Justice" therefore it actually adds value to the talent other then a straight big buff. Be more interesting if it added something to each blessing instead of a makes them *100% better*

Holy Wrath's reduced CD again nice but it is still channeled and it's going to feel weird doing that. I don't really believe Blizzard will make it non channeled, I feel like if it was it would have to do something else and since it is giving extra charges of Holy Power, it would seem pretty OP.



Equality....well I can imagine this scenario


*Paladin enters an aoe area taking massive damage, stand in it for awhile hit Equality and big damage* I am 90% certain this situation will happen super often and even in the raid settings more often. I do not like the idea of a talent making you take damage to deal it. In the context of a DPS role that is.

In any raid you're in, as long as it isn't a pug, I can't see equality even being used for that scenario. Maybe for farming raids when you move onto the next one, but definitely not in any form of normal/heroic/mythic progression raiding. It might equate to big damage, but I doubt healers are going to want to put up with us sitting in AoE damage or fire just to build up damage. I guess it could be sorted out, but for the most part I can see healers saying no.

[Deleted]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...316?page=7#128

After the second quote will be answers to some questions regarding ret. Well.. no comment on the first one.

[ruiizu]

In any raid you're in, as long as it isn't a pug, I can't see equality even being used for that scenario. Maybe for farming raids when you move onto the next one, but definitely not in any form of normal/heroic/mythic progression raiding. It might equate to big damage, but I doubt healers are going to want to put up with us sitting in AoE damage or fire just to build up damage. I guess it could be sorted out, but for the most part I can see healers saying no.

Equality might see occasional use on fights such as Tyrant where your HP is artificially kept from increasing, or on fights where your HP is reduced to 1 temporarily, but that's still a gimmick at best. Unless there are gonna be fights where AE is super ridiculous or there are massive hits you're forced to take, I don't imagine Equality seeing a lot of raid time. But that really depends on encounter design (it can be useful if you're forced to take damage or be low on HP at times).

But generally I think it just encourages bad gameplay habits. I used to play a Warrior and I would get yelled at for standing in shit, but it gave me FULL RAGE BRO. Pop berserker rage, stand in that fire...sweet sweet rage. Of course eventually I just learned to tell the healers I was gonna do it. But still.

I'm not sure what the story is with Holy Wrath. It's going to be so hard to use that I just don't really see what they're going for with it. There definitely will be times you can use it, like when someone is running towards you or you're fighting a class without a ranged interrupt. You could even use it during HoJ if it hits hard enough for the time to gain some quick Holy Power, but basically it's not gonna be something in PvP you can "just use."

I assume Holy Wrath's cooldown is fully consumed even if you get interrupted, so that's really gonna suck. In PvE since you get a lot of chances to stand still I'm guessing it'll be pretty okay, but that depends a lot on Blessings of Justice.

I'm not sure how after all this time Blessings are still not exclusive (1 of each per Paladin; 1 might 1 kings 1 wisdom). It would fix the whole Might stacking requirement so easily. Because I doubt anyone here really is excited about having 3 buffs, but never being able to use 2 of them because the 3rd is exclusively the best.

I don't have a lot of hope for WoW. I think the changes they're trying to make are too big and it's going to be a gas. I've already kind of started edging away, both because of real life and because it turns out some other games are pretty good now.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Equality might see occasional use on fights such as Tyrant where your HP is artificially kept from increasing, or on fights where your HP is reduced to 1 temporarily, but that's still a gimmick at best. Unless there are gonna be fights where AE is super ridiculous or there are massive hits you're forced to take, I don't imagine Equality seeing a lot of raid time. But that really depends on encounter design (it can be useful if you're forced to take damage or be low on HP at times).

But generally I think it just encourages bad gameplay habits. I used to play a Warrior and I would get yelled at for standing in shit, but it gave me FULL RAGE BRO. Pop berserker rage, stand in that fire...sweet sweet rage. Of course eventually I just learned to tell the healers I was gonna do it. But still.

I'm not sure what the story is with Holy Wrath. It's going to be so hard to use that I just don't really see what they're going for with it. There definitely will be times you can use it, like when someone is running towards you or you're fighting a class without a ranged interrupt. You could even use it during HoJ if it hits hard enough for the time to gain some quick Holy Power, but basically it's not gonna be something in PvP you can "just use."

I assume Holy Wrath's cooldown is fully consumed even if you get interrupted, so that's really gonna suck. In PvE since you get a lot of chances to stand still I'm guessing it'll be pretty okay, but that depends a lot on Blessings of Justice.

I'm not sure how after all this time Blessings are still not exclusive (1 of each per Paladin; 1 might 1 kings 1 wisdom). It would fix the whole Might stacking requirement so easily. Because I doubt anyone here really is excited about having 3 buffs, but never being able to use 2 of them because the 3rd is exclusively the best.

I don't have a lot of hope for WoW. I think the changes they're trying to make are too big and it's going to be a gas. I've already kind of started edging away, both because of real life and because it turns out some other games are pretty good now.

I'm not super certain things are this doom and gloom honestly but damn it feels painful to watch. I just don't like Equality, I'm not going to be for a talent that promotes taking damage to deal it back.

[Taeldorian]

Equality might see occasional use on fights such as Tyrant where your HP is artificially kept from increasing, or on fights where your HP is reduced to 1 temporarily, but that's still a gimmick at best. Unless there are gonna be fights where AE is super ridiculous or there are massive hits you're forced to take, I don't imagine Equality seeing a lot of raid time. But that really depends on encounter design (it can be useful if you're forced to take damage or be low on HP at times).

But generally I think it just encourages bad gameplay habits. I used to play a Warrior and I would get yelled at for standing in shit, but it gave me FULL RAGE BRO. Pop berserker rage, stand in that fire...sweet sweet rage. Of course eventually I just learned to tell the healers I was gonna do it. But still.

I'm not sure what the story is with Holy Wrath. It's going to be so hard to use that I just don't really see what they're going for with it. There definitely will be times you can use it, like when someone is running towards you or you're fighting a class without a ranged interrupt. You could even use it during HoJ if it hits hard enough for the time to gain some quick Holy Power, but basically it's not gonna be something in PvP you can "just use."

I assume Holy Wrath's cooldown is fully consumed even if you get interrupted, so that's really gonna suck. In PvE since you get a lot of chances to stand still I'm guessing it'll be pretty okay, but that depends a lot on Blessings of Justice.

I'm not sure how after all this time Blessings are still not exclusive (1 of each per Paladin; 1 might 1 kings 1 wisdom). It would fix the whole Might stacking requirement so easily. Because I doubt anyone here really is excited about having 3 buffs, but never being able to use 2 of them because the 3rd is exclusively the best.

I don't have a lot of hope for WoW. I think the changes they're trying to make are too big and it's going to be a gas. I've already kind of started edging away, both because of real life and because it turns out some other games are pretty good now.

I agree with basically everything you said here. No idea why they're so persistent on this play style for ret, it's really not working out. It feels clunky (judgement being a debuff that really fucks us up when switching to a priority target) and slow. Kalgan is really in love with equality even though it hardly has any situational use, and it's not even a fun ability which was his reason for keeping it. I believe he said if you don't want to pick it, don't, but it's a fun ability to have. I completely disagree with that, if it were fun I might have an easier time understanding why it's still in the game, but it isn't.

As for holy wrath, it has absolutely no place in pvp. If it causes players to worry, they'll just interrupt it on the spot, and I don't see any mechanic that prevents that in pvp. As for pve, sure, it could work, but greater blessings seems like it's still the best talent. I personally dislike the playstyle of ret currently, and am hoping future builds will help, but as far as we all can see, equality is going to stay because Kalgan.

Due to future builds still coming out, and beta where more people will have access to the class, I can't say I'm going to not play the class yet, but we'll see. I always main 2 classes and keep them up to date on gear which is ret paladin/enh shaman. We'll have to see where things go, but I'd wait for future builds to make a call like that, just in case something actually does happen in our favor.

[ruiizu]

I'm not super certain things are this doom and gloom honestly but damn it feels painful to watch. I just don't like Equality, I'm not going to be for a talent that promotes taking damage to deal it back.

It just feels bad because I've actually gone to play other games and found that WoW is starting (to me) to age. These kinds of changes aren't exactly helping, and really the only exciting thing for Ret (again, to me) was Wake of Ashes. The changes to our basic rotation skills are a big turn off, mainly because I think the new mastery stinks (enough that I support Greater Judgment just so I can not have to bother with it). No sir, I don't like damage windows...they aren't fun, for me. And I don't like having even less mobility than on Live, at least not in the way it's being handled. Not having Emancipate is one of the chief complete killers, because I had no mobility in Wrath or Cata and I still could wreck kids because I could just keep cleansing away Frostbolt slow, crippling poison, etc (and then eventually emancipate spam out of it).

Also, I can't believe that they just responded that Might stacking is intended. Can someone please post some kind of feedback about that? Like, if you're not going to tell them "this is stupid," at LEAST tell them "Wisdom and Kings are not powerful enough to consider over Might in a raid situation."

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It just feels bad because I've actually gone to play other games and found that WoW is starting (to me) to age. These kinds of changes aren't exactly helping, and really the only exciting thing for Ret (again, to me) was Wake of Ashes. The changes to our basic rotation skills are a big turn off, mainly because I think the new mastery stinks (enough that I support Greater Judgment just so I can not have to bother with it). No sir, I don't like damage windows...they aren't fun, for me. And I don't like having even less mobility than on Live, at least not in the way it's being handled. Not having Emancipate is one of the chief complete killers, because I had no mobility in Wrath or Cata and I still could wreck kids because I could just keep cleansing away Frostbolt slow, crippling poison, etc (and then eventually emancipate spam out of it).

Also, I can't believe that they just responded that Might stacking is intended. Can someone please post some kind of feedback about that? Like, if you're not going to tell them "this is stupid," at LEAST tell them "Wisdom and Kings are not powerful enough to consider over Might in a raid situation."

I mean if things do change, I have to wonder why bother defending these design decisions and stacking might? That seems OP but umm ok lol

[Tyze]

How good is Divine Hammer? 25% weapon damage seems weak, even if it's holy damage.
Bladestorm does 2,016% weapon damage as arms.

[Hofflerand]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...316?page=7#128

After the second quote will be answers to some questions regarding ret. Well.. no comment on the first one.

Good questions. I agree with ruiizu that one of each blessing would be a better design but the devs seem set on any combination of three.

Also, I can't believe that they just responded that Might stacking is intended. Can someone please post some kind of feedback about that? Like, if you're not going to tell them "this is stupid," at LEAST tell them "Wisdom and Kings are not powerful enough to consider over Might in a raid situation."

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...34307?page=1#7
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4307?page=2#25

[Deleted]

For pvp fake casting might become a thing for ret. fake cast flash one or 2 times to be sure kick is out of the picture, it it works and you are not locked out on holy you can go ahead and deal wrath 2.5 glorious seconds.
Regarding this is eye beam and fists of fury interruptable out side of stuns? Since we are not the only class with such a mechanic that might give us an idea how to handle it.

[Lunavale]

Due to future builds still coming out, and beta where more people will have access to the class, I can't say I'm going to not play the class yet, but we'll see. I always main 2 classes and keep them up to date on gear which is ret paladin/enh shaman. We'll have to see where things go, but I'd wait for future builds to make a call like that, just in case something actually does happen in our favor.

Unless they see some serious backlash on how Ret plays, it will only be number tuning from that point (assuming they even do a beta with inviting more people).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Unless they see some serious backlash on how Ret plays, it will only be number tuning from that point (assuming they even do a beta with inviting more people).

They already are getting some blacklash. A lot of it is like "Umm what? I don't get this." Granted Arms Warriors are in a similar boat but still.

[Lunavale]

They already are getting some blacklash. A lot of it is like "Umm what? I don't get this." Granted Arms Warriors are in a similar boat but still.

I mean something really big, because what's going on currently clearly isn't enough.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I mean something really big, because what's going on currently clearly isn't enough.

We can only hope there's a big turn around or there's something we're not missing.

[Reapocalypse]

First off, Paladin was never my main and im just trying to share a few ideas.

The greatest problem im currently seeing in Retribution is definetly the last talent row, 2 talents simply not viable and Blessings still not really that great to use.

My suggestion for Holy Wrath would be to make it a instant ability that hits up to X (lets say 8) targets over 8 seconds infront of you with Holy Bolts and generating Holy Power over 8 seconds.
With that we have a Barrage-like AoE choice that still gives us some Holy Power and could be used in a few more scenarios.

For Equality id suggest to just replace it completly with a new talent and moving Equality to the PvP tree, but change it abit to be a "reactive spell reflect",
"Shock your Target for the equal amount of damage of the last hit you recieved." 20 sec cd
For example, a Warlock casts Chaos Bolt on you and right after it hits you, you could use this ability to deal the damage back if this Warlock is not good enough to be aware of it and cast a instant-lowhitting spell like Conflagrate right after to avoid that.
With that we would have a Class-Fantasy fitting spell that would reward awareness and quick reflexes, even tho Eye for an Eye would be a more fitting name in that case imho. (could be extended to physical/melee hits)

For Blessings there can be alot added to it, for example, casting a Blessing gives you X stat for Y seconds or whenever Blessing of Justice deals damage the Paladin gains Blessing of Justice for a few seconds (if your own Blessing triggers you could get a second buff) and so on but i feel like tuned correctly the current Blessings Talent wouldnt be too bad. (2 Blessings are still not viable at all)

If anyone agrees with anything written above feel free to post it on the official forums, if not i appreciate any feedback or criticism.

[Deleted]

The thing is it hasn't so far. The community never agrees on everything, but it has been fairly united on the problem with greater blessings, the new mastery, and said new mastery working through a debuff from Judgment. Yet, despite that, there hasn't been a concerted demonstration to Blizzard about this in the same way as some other classes do. You could read the feedback forums and be forgiven for thinking that most people are fine with their design choice because there just haven't been any serious numbers complaining or even upvoting posts by the likes of Solsacra who do.

I would absolutely accept that if there was a loud voice of objection, they would re-think it; but it hasn't happened in the last four months and I don't see it suddenly starting now.

For the first point. Well rets aren't a monolithic sect , we ain't a hive mind like space herpes (aka the flood) or something like that. A community should never agree to a 100% on anything at all , or else you will loose valid input.
As for the rest. I think the problem lies not only within blizz but also the playerbase. It seems to me that far too many people aren't that interested in doing this stuff , arguing about design playstyle etc but are keeping it to them selfs. This is some big concern here because the lack of voices heard will inevitbly implicate to a company that everything is alright and fine and the guys , like we here , who are saying otherwise are just the loud minority - which may actually even be true , but also not.
The other problem is , which is a big one for me at least , is the cuddle way of things that has been going on here. I have seen far too many posts in the official forums , but also here aswell , where people are firstly rubbing blizz tenderly and then somewhere at the end they mix some critism in there. This isn't how things are working , at least not for a company that big. If you are first saying that things are looking fine and dandy nearly everything behind this point is next to irrelevnt and will probably be just ignored. At best we can hope that they have acknoledged the points made but think of them of such a low prioty that they they just can't be bothered in looking at them right now. And with that we could have just been placed in the very last row in terms of changs and fixes , because if you say everything is fine exept for some minor points here and there (or supposed minor points) then why should they be fixed asap if there are bigger things at hand that have to be taken care off?

@Reghame.
I do not believe for a second their whole wishi washi bullshit that number tuning haven't even begune. The way i see it , their current Stat communism is a good implication that they are currently underway in aligning things correctly. Thing is , if you do that , you will have easily good data about who should be squshi as fuck and who be a tanky ass spice mahreen. This in addition to the last builds who where for the most parts only about numbers and some minor changes or swaps here and there is telling me that things are going into a more siriose phase of things and with that the beta.
Point is. Even if we are to think that there are some changes still at hand - they won't be big , quite the opposite even with maybe just maybe a bigger influence then it may first seem but still minor in terms of change. The simple truth is , there isn't enough time anymore for them to do such major overhauls to so many speccs that aren't really happy with how their specc is currently playing and with that then also doing the whole balancing thing and with that priorite alignment etc etc. Long story short 4 month in terms of design and practice for a company is pretty tight time plan.

I do not exept some major changes at all , if anything comes at all then it will be with the second content patch , and even then only things that are in line with the current design. It is rare that there have been major design changes within a addon itself so we simply can't exept this to happen - most of all because this has not once been happening to us.

As for the things of @Teleros . There will be probably two sets of gear , more or less. One with a priotie on haste/mastery for AE based fights and one with mastery/haste(i think crit actually) for ST fights. Mastery will may loose much of value for every fight that has adds in it , despite Greater Colossal Judg being a thing , and haste will be more usefull because more haste=more DS.

@Hofflerand the issue with E4E is that you have rarely any idea against who you are fighting against. E4E is indeed quite strong against many meeles , problem with that is that not that many speccs are "meele" based any longer. Rogues , DKs , Hunters etc all of them are also dealing quite a bit of damage from magical sources aswell. And like i said you don't have any idea against who you will be fighting and there is always the risk that the whole row may become useless for that certain fight because there aren't any pure meeles on your oposing team. A flat reduction against everyting would be far better and more versatile for both PvE and PvP. In PvE there aren't that many bosses that have a meele based AE and once a boss or add is punching you chances are you are dead within seconds. That makes the only real valid option for most cases WoG. Speaking of which WoG should EITHER have the CD but no HP cost OR HP cost and a high CD. Both at the same time is weird considering that we have to forgo our main damage source for a pansy ass heal.

- - - Updated - - -

Equality might see occasional use on fights such as Tyrant where your HP is artificially kept from increasing, or on fights where your HP is reduced to 1 temporarily, but that's still a gimmick at best. Unless there are gonna be fights where AE is super ridiculous or there are massive hits you're forced to take, I don't imagine Equality seeing a lot of raid time. But that really depends on encounter design (it can be useful if you're forced to take damage or be low on HP at times).

Just flying over the numbers with my tired ass at the current moment even HW deals suprior DPS over the course of 3 min then Equality does with a inital 2,5 mio hit on 3 targets = 7.5mio VS one target and HW.
That plus like you mentioned whe situational aspect of the talent and even without it the preperation that has to be made makes it not that usefull - mostly because you are running a high chance of dying.
It may somewhat be usefull in fights like Iskar where you have to deal in a short amount of time massive damage against 1-2 high priotie targets , but again the spell is far to uncontrollable for most situations and you may even hit the wrong target in essence the same problem that Greater Colossal Judg has. Far to random but not in a interesting or positiv way.

@Euroguy , depending on the numbers it will probably be used only for fights like Assault or where adds have a higher priorite then the boss itselfs. And even then the latter is questionable because you will inevitbly loose some ST dps permanatly for the fight from both generators and Finishers since DH regs only half of the HP with a slightly longer CD. In the same way Final Verdict will probably be used for most fights and ES only for pure ST fights or where the adds are dying far to fast and are coming to rarely for it to be a gain. Consc. if at all - again depending on the numbers tuning - will also probably be used only for Assault like fights.


Also i still think we should sill have some form of Procc. Ret in Legion looks even more boring less engaging to play then Ret in HFC even.
There are so damn few things you could be doing wrong , even without greater Colossal Judg and exept that there is litteraly nothing.
I think that many rets will start to fall asleep in their raids and be bored and with that less causious and more prone to stand in shit and die.On second thought i may have just found out what equality is actually for - a rewards for thouse of us who fell asleep and stood in shit and by using equality you can shout to your guys that everything was planned and you didn't failed.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't understand why Word of Glory had to be changed. Honestly, I liked the design Word of Glory was, no CD but was dependant on Holy Power. I may disagree highly on Reg but I am not convinced Tuning has come. Idealistically they haven't focused a lot on overall class changes.

Arms Warriors are left in the dust, Assass rogues are left wondering and such etc etc. I could go on and other specs but I think there is some hope but as I said, it's VERY difficult to feel that way. As for the two sets of gear thing. I honestly think that's the stupidest idea I've seen. Why Blizzard would even think that's interesting gameplay or anything is beyond me. Seems kinda unnecessarily tedious but Blizzard is Blizzard.

I don't like the Judgement window gameplay. It's dumb and making us wait for the right moment is well...Arms Warriors dealt with that and I'm sure some of them didn't like it either.


I also pray the haste issues may be gone but who knows. Since it's the weekend I'll take a break from posting here and be back Monday. Chow

[Ulthane]

Mastery will remain it seems, Judgment will be just a debuff, they want the rows to be shoved down the throat and as before they can work just need proper tuning.

Abilities
-Shield of Vengeance: Lower CD to 1 minute.
-Divine Storm: Buff damage to 200%
-Crusader Strike: Buff damage to 150%
-Templar's Verdict: Buff damage to 400%
--NOTE-- This is simply because people have mentioned damage is too low in alpha.
-Greater Blessings: Blessings of Justice caked in to abilities. All greater blessings buffed by 100% power.
-Hand of Light: Needs to come back.

15
-Final Verdict: As is
-Execution Sentence: 3 Holy Power, place an execution sentence on the target. When you use Judgment against this target they take 1200% AP as holy damage. 20 second cooldown. -NOTE- This is because im noticing people just are not liking the clashing game play, this would be a way to keep the delay on it but with more control.
-Consecration: Damage buffed to 600% AP over 10 seconds now with a 10 second cooldown. -NOTE- damage needs to be buffed to even be competitive against the other two-

30
-The Fires of Justice: Lower Crusader Strike cooldown by .5 seconds and Crusader Strike now deals Holy damage. Causes your next Holy Power consumer to cost 1 less, stacking up to 2 times.
-Zeal: Replaces Crusader Strike. Generates 1 Holy Power. Deals 240% damage. Grants Zeal increasing haste by 6% stacking up to 3 times. Each stack of Zeal allows Zeal to cleave to 1 additional near by target. 4.5 second cooldown, 2 charges.
-Crusader Flurry: Replaces Crusader Strike. 3.5 second Cooldown. Deal 160% weapon damage. Generate 1 Holy Power.
--NOTE-- We dont need Judgment for AoE, just buff AoE so its actually good. This being said bring back Crusader Flurry and give diverse options here.

45
-Fine as is-

60
-Virtues Blade: Causes your Blade of Justice to always critically strike and your critical strike rating increases the damage it deals.
--NOTE-- If our stats are not going to be truly stackable come Legion then one has to ask why would it be as it is now? A low"isH" chance for a huge crit? Why not just give it the chaos bolt treatment. Since its physical damage and crit is one of those things you won't find as much with our sets it shouldnt be too op.
-Blade of Wrath: Increased damage to approx 200 - 300% as holy damage. Generates 2 Holy Power. Replaces Blade of Justice. 8 second cooldown.
--NOTE-- Damage needs to be buffed to remain competitive, this range should be around what it needs to be.
-Divine Hammer: Replaces Blade of Justice. Divine Hammers swirl around you, instantly dealing 40% weapon damage as holy damage every second for 4 seconds. Generates 1 Holy Power. 4 second cooldown.
--NOTE-- This should give the players a fast option that is also AoE and gives it a competitive edge and diversity among the talents.

75
-Justicar's Vengeance: Reworked. Your Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm now heal you for the damage they deal.
--NOTE-- After reading some of the comments here and talking with other people I came to sort of conclusion that this needs to be a damage to healing talent. Having it deal massive damage or bonus stun damage is going to get it nerfed badly also the cost clashes with what we need to be doing in the rotation. Also with the loss of Glyph of Templar's Verdict this would make up for it.
-Eye for an Eye: Now reduces all damage taken by 35% and instantly counter attacks any enemy that deals damage to you so long as they are in melee range for 140% damage.
--NOTE-- Needs to be a proper defensive mechanic that reduces all damage taken. Would serve many uses.
-Word of Glory: 3 Holy Power. No cooldown. Heal yourself and up to 5 near by allies for 1000%AP healing.
--Note: The CD needs to be removed otherwise if it has a CD the healing needs to be BUFFED tons.

90
-Divine Intervention: Now lowers Divine Shield cooldown to 1.5 minutes in addition to current effects. (Cooldown of DS would be 1.5 minutes in this regardless.)
--NOTES-- Needs to be around same lines of Purgatory per se.
-Divine Steed: Makes you immune to Crowd Control effects for the duration in addition to normal effects.
-Seal of Light: Now prevents you from falling beneath 100% movement speed for the duration in addition to normal effects.
--NOTE-- Low mobility needs to be made up with high defensive properties or a way to get around HARD crowd control effects. There has to be a trade off.

100
-Blessings of Justice: Now instead allows you to have 3 of each Greater Blessing active at one time. Fewer active Greater Blessings increase the power of that particular Greater Blessing.
--NOTE-- Takes away the bland crap from the talent and makes it more interactive while not going too ham. The power increase to the talents in terms of Might would be the proc chance.
-Holy Wrath: Cooldown reduced to 30 seconds.
--NOTE-- Would make it truly competitive.
-Equality: Now costs 50% of your health. Deals damage equal to double the health you spent as holy damage hitting up to 3 near by enemies. Reduced effectiveness against players. 1 minute cooldown.
--NOTE-- Lots better this way <_< plus: Lasting Justice is earned through great sacrifice. Class fantasy.

Artifact
-Divine Tempest: Your Holy Power consumers cause your next Divine Storm to be instant and deal 100% additional damage as Radiant with a 50% increased radius.
--NOTE-- This would fix all reliance on Judgment to do good AoE. Full AoE talents means AMAZING AoE but at this point with this trait and talent options all talents are viable to do ST or AoE.
-Echo of the Highlord: Ashbringer fires Bolts of Radiant light at the targets of your Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm dealing Radiant damage.
--NOTE-- Adds to the fantasy of the Ashbringer, fixes the animation which would be crap and in addition makes the AoE stronger.

Final Notes: IF Divine Storm is hitting too hard in this then nerf the damage. Otherwise this is a TON better than what they have and it doesnt revamp or overhaul ANYTHING they are doing. It is complimenting it and MAKING it work.

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Also, if ANYTHING looks op it would probably be the damage output, but we could agree that the mechanics like this would be a lot better.

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@Zartorus @Aeluron Lightsong

Would the above fix things as they are currently? Would this type of tuning make any sense?

[Reghame]

after some going over, i tested for 30 minutes before all i could see was DH but ret seems very good vs others still. its just so hard to test anymore because havoc hunters are just LITERALLY everywhere atm and they basically all know about the blade dance combo so it insta kills you. gona have to wait till a new build to do any PVP testing again and hopefully they gut their damage just so people can actually test things for PVP again.

[Dartz1979]

I really like some of your ideas; however, the bolded options a bit too OP compared to other options in the row, asp the Pursuit of Justice the speed buff and reduced CC is insane buff for pvp. Also what are your thoughts for making Ret viable in RBGs? Since most of your abilities are ST.

Also off topic, i was reading up on PvP forums, and there was a post where a person said that apparently he dueled every class as Ret and won all the duels (lets for argument sake assume this is true) due to Ret's good sustain self healing. My questions to ppl with Alpha, does Ret actually have good healing capabilties in PvP? Since what i can tell from talents, its all castable heals (not counting WoG) which can be easily interrupted/kicked, so how then Ret can maintain good healing, while chasing some1 if its all cast-base? Thx in advance.

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Yep thats how i actually see it, the ONLY way for Blizzard to properly balance Ret spec, is when almost no-one will play it, it will become so dead that blizzard will have no choice but to make it decent on par with other dps-classes.

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Yep i remember that too lol, i actually lead my own Pugs to Heroic Dragon Soul for 2p set bonus + Heroic PVE trinkets (never got past Heroic Spine with my pugs...so never got that OP heroic sword)

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Come on Storm, don;t tell me you do not miss 80% hp heal on our SH if target below 30% hp, the 2x Ret was actually viable in 2s, and the nub-rush of 3x DPS: 2x Ret/Frost DK or Ret/Hunter/Rog, even though it was a nub fest, i enjoyed that s11

I liked pursuit of justice now they changed it now paladins wont have fast speed no more that sucks.