No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Elim Garak]

Yeah except for the fact they said you can start to work on the achievement at launch and there is no sign of it.

I believe a part of the achievement requires you to unsubscribe and play other games.

[Mafic]

I believe a part of the achievement requires you to unsubscribe and play other games.

Haha sounds good to me.

[Deleted]

They should just remove flying or let everyone fly without any achievements. The problem is gating such huge thing into mind numbing boring content, hence forcing players into doing something most wouldn't even bother doing.

[Dhrizzle]

Yeah except for the fact they said you can start to work on the achievement at launch and there is no sign of it.

They're also lacking Loremaster and Explorer achievements for the Broken Isles, does that make you think there will be no quests or outdoor content at all?

[SirCowdog]

They're also lacking Loremaster and Explorer achievements for the Broken Isles, does that make you think there will be no quests or outdoor content at all?

As much as I hate to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt in regards to Flight, I have to say that it really wouldn't be hard to take existing achievements and slap together a laundry-list of them that have to be completed to unlock flight. The fact that we don't see the final list doesn't mean they aren't working on the sub-achievements. :/

It's just disappointing that they're STILL playing the waiting game.

[clevin]

They also think open world content is better without flight which is why the achievement is coming later in the expansion.

But it wasn't in WoD. That's the problem - had they given us cool, fun open world content that could only be done if players weren't able to fly AND it was max level content I think the complaints would have been far less numerous. But after saying what you said, they utterly failed to do that and so created a situation where they took something away and didn't give something else to balance it out.

That they're doubling down on this approach just makes me think that Legion will be broadly like WoD... a decent to fun leveling experience, some good launch 5 mans followed by 1-2 patches and another year of nothing. If that's their plan I'll do what I've done in WoD.. play it for 3-4 months, then unsub.

[SirCowdog]

They did admit trying to remove flight was a mistake, that's why we have the Pathfinder achievement. They also think open world content is better without flight which is why the achievement is coming later in the expansion.

I think it would be more accurate to say they think content is easier to design without flight, which is not necessarily the same thing as better. It's also fairly obvious that content design is heavily influenced by the subscription model by slowing down the rate of consumption, and how much time a player has to spend to accomplish various things in the open world.

This is also why flying is pushed back until after the ground content is already cleared, when it no longer has impact on the rate of consumption, and potentially keeps certain types of people playing longer because they gain the enjoyment of flying.

From a business standpoint they get more for less. It seems VERY clear to me why they're doing it, and it isn't because it's better for the player or because they're trying to make a higher quality game.

[Demoneq]

and potentially keeps certain types of people playing longer because they gain the enjoyment of flying.

From a business standpoint they get more for less.

Or not playing at all, and then they get less (zero) for less. Oh well, I guess they like it that way.

[Delimit]

I think it would be more accurate to say they think content is easier to design without flight, which is not necessarily the same thing as better. It's also fairly obvious that content design is heavily influenced by the subscription model by slowing down the rate of consumption, and how much time a player has to spend to accomplish various things in the open world.

This is also why flying is pushed back until after the ground content is already cleared, when it no longer has impact on the rate of consumption, and potentially keeps certain types of people playing longer because they gain the enjoyment of flying.

From a business standpoint they get more for less. It seems VERY clear to me why they're doing it, and it isn't because it's better for the player or because they're trying to make a higher quality game.

Exactly, it has nothing to do with it being "better" and has everything to do with them not wanting to put forth the effort of incorporating thus making it easier/faster to develop. (they've said as much) They're fully capable of incorporating flying content, see: Netherwing dailies, Skettis/Ogri'la dailies (flying required to reach them), Cloud Serpent dailies. Hell, you used to have to fly up to floating islands in Nagrand to farm gas clouds as an Engineer.

[SirCowdog]

Or not playing at all, and then they get less (zero) for less. Oh well, I guess they like it that way.

I believe that in their minds, and from their perspective, the benefits of the simpler and easier design outweigh the potential risks of pushing back flight to where it is with Pathfinder. Keep in mind that most people who enjoy flight don't ever ask the questions or look at the issues brought up in this, and other similar, threads. They think, "Oh, I can get flight later on with a little work? That's cool I guess.", and never look any deeper.

So for Blizzard, Pathfinder would appear to be the best choice to preserve their "No Flying during current content" philosophy. Flight is EFFECTIVELY removed, without actually taking it from the game completely, and risking the backlash it would inevitably cause(WoD). I could almost admire the elegance of their solution if it didn't involve such a blatant disregard for people who want flying to actually be a real part of the game.


In light of the amazing skill, creativity, and innovation they show in games like Overwatch, what they're doing with WoW is downright disappointing. You can tell they just don't give a shit about WoW anymore.

[Manataurus]

Okay, cool. We gonna have another 4k page thread repeating the same things over and over?

Page 232 so far

[dejaa]

That they're doubling down on this approach just makes me think that Legion will be broadly like WoD... a decent to fun leveling experience, some good launch 5 mans followed by 1-2 patches and another year of nothing. If that's their plan I'll do what I've done in WoD.. play it for 3-4 months, then unsub.

Now there's the problem, that's exactly their expectation. The game is now heavily front-loaded. They've got your money for the expansion and 3-4 months worth of sub fees at minimum. Ongoing subs no longer matter to them, they'll make that up with lower development costs, services, and the premium on subs with tokens. The only way this can change is if the masses don't buy into it. But sheep will be sheep.

[Deleted]

They learnt that their grounded experience was not universally "superior".
I cant speak for everyone, but "happy to wait" is not how I would describe myself.
And I suspect there are plenty who feel the same way.

I just really hope that there isn't some mindless grind this time purely to extend the length of the "readiness" progression, like with the reputations.
The idea was to present most of the preferred experience.
A repetitive grind is failing to do that, because once you do it once you have experienced it.
Repeating the same thing for weeks isn't adding anything else.

Unfortunately it appears they are still determined to shove it down players throats, as if that is again going to convince people of their view.
It won't.

Careful there ComputerNerd you are in danger of having an independent opinion and not just adopting Blizzard's. That said, this is all the community's fault...isn't it....must be...surely.

[Alydael]

But it wasn't in WoD. That's the problem - had they given us cool, fun open world content that could only be done if players weren't able to fly AND it was max level content I think the complaints would have been far less numerous. But after saying what you said, they utterly failed to do that and so created a situation where they took something away and didn't give something else to balance it out.

That they're doubling down on this approach just makes me think that Legion will be broadly like WoD... a decent to fun leveling experience, some good launch 5 mans followed by 1-2 patches and another year of nothing. If that's their plan I'll do what I've done in WoD.. play it for 3-4 months, then unsub.

I agree, they didn't come through on all the great outdoors stuff they promised. The same with Mythic. They claimed the set number of 20 would allow them to use some really unique mechanics. I didn't see that either.

[ComputerNerd]

Careful there ComputerNerd you are in danger of having an independent opinion and not just adopting Blizzard's. That said, this is all the community's fault...isn't it....must be...surely.

As I have said many times, I am no blizzard fanboy despite several accusations otherwise.
I just don't often feel the need to voice my criticisms so much.
But I still have, on LFR rewards and Garrisons particularly.
In addition to the flying gating and attitudes behind it.

They are never going to get the grounded experience to be universally appealing, so they should stop trying to convince people it is the only way to play the game.

They opened Pandora's Box with flying mounts, and now there is no closing it.
We accepted, or I could say tolerated what we had pre-flying because that is all there was.
Well we took the best we had, ground mounts being faster than walking.

I agree, they didn't come through on all the great outdoors stuff they promised. The same with Mythic. They claimed the set number of 20 would allow them to use some really unique mechanics. I didn't see that either.

And what great content is that which is going to suit everyone ?
There isn't any, and that is the problem.
There will always be content which some players find unappealing, and so those players will still be elsewhere.
This was evident pre-draenor, and pre-garrisons as much as it is now.

[dejaa]

In light of the amazing skill, creativity, and innovation they show in games like Overwatch, what they're doing with WoW is downright disappointing. You can tell they just don't give a shit about WoW anymore.

Not giving a crap anymore may be part of it, but oh dear god the developers that are assigned to WoW seem to be the biggest collection of has-been failures imaginable. They are creatively bankrupt.

Alex (they killed Titan because they couldn't find the fun in it) Afrasiabi, now sucking all the fun out of WoW.

Jay (Diablo got better after he and his ideas got removed) Wilson, now bringing his stupidity to WoW with similar effects.

Chris (wants to be Thrall) Metzen, at last year's Blizzccon said there were wonderful things in store for WoW with Legion, but practically had tears in his eyes when he went on and on about Overwatch.

Ion Hazzikostas. I don't think he's a failure, but I think he's the wrong person to have in a game lead position because all he thinks about is raids and character design at the highest level of play. Has a distorted perception of how the average player plays.

The game needs new leadership from outside of Blizzard to flourish again.

[Dhrizzle]

But it wasn't in WoD. That's the problem - had they given us cool, fun open world content that could only be done if players weren't able to fly AND it was max level content I think the complaints would have been far less numerous. But after saying what you said, they utterly failed to do that and so created a situation where they took something away and didn't give something else to balance it out.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man. I had a great time treasure hunting and tracking down any rares I stumbled across. If the game had been designed for people flying and just dropping out of the sky instead of exploring and pathfinding I probably wouldn't have bothered. Likewise with the Apexis zones, I found it a lot more entertaining working out the best or most efficient routes to complete each objective than previous expansions' sky-sniping shopping lists. What they did lack was compelling rewards to keep you coming back, but I don't mind if the content is less stretched.

That they're doubling down on this approach just makes me think that Legion will be broadly like WoD... a decent to fun leveling experience, some good launch 5 mans followed by 1-2 patches and another year of nothing. If that's their plan I'll do what I've done in WoD.. play it for 3-4 months, then unsub.

You say that like it's a bad thing, but honestly I like the fact that WoW has become a game I can play periodically rather than repeating the same bits of content endlessly to get some slightly more powerful gear.

I think it would be more accurate to say they think content is easier to design without flight, which is not necessarily the same thing as better. It's also fairly obvious that content design is heavily influenced by the subscription model by slowing down the rate of consumption, and how much time a player has to spend to accomplish various things in the open world.

You keep trying to push this but I find it very unconvincing. Firstly, please explain how it's easier to design the content without flight? In previous expansions there were some areas they didn't even bother making paths to, just plopped a quest area down and let players fly there, how much less effort do you need? There are also areas with mobs just scattered around willy-nilly because they don't have to worry about how players approach them when they're picking off what they want from the air. Please give examples and explain how Wrath, Cata or MoP's flight-enabled daily zones took less effort to implement than the dozen or so Apexis zones that came with WoD.

Secondly, how are you still trying to say that no-flying is a decision to stretch out subscriptions when by far the biggest complaint about WoD is the lack of things to do? If Blizz were trying to stretch content don't you think they would have allowed players to tackle more than one Apexis zone per day? Maybe given some reward that didn't suck?

The way a lot of people talk in this thread it really seems they can't conceive of someone having a different opinion or enjoying the game differently, so intead of accepting that the game is catering to another group's preferences they try to find "objective" reasons, like claiming that disabling flight magically makes the game much cheaper to produce, or asserting the expansion with the least stretched content in WoW's history has been cleverly designed to milk the maximum subscription from the players.

[Alydael]

And what great content is that which is going to suit everyone ?
There isn't any, and that is the problem.
There will always be content which some players find unappealing, and so those players will still be elsewhere.
This was evident pre-draenor, and pre-garrisons as much as it is now.

I didn't promise the great content, Blizzard did. It is up to them to deliver. As far as I could tell, not much was different in WOD from the outdoor experience in previous x-pacs. If they were going to design some great new content because they didn't have to worry about flying, I would expect something to be different...
Same with Mythic. Mythic bosses did not seem so different from the heroic mode bosses in the past x-pac (as far as I could tell).

I understand that different people like different things and you might not like content I like and vice versa. However, if you make a statement that designing with flying (or for flexible mythic) in mind is somehow limiting you, I would expect to see different results after you removed the limitations. Even if I don't like the results....... I just didn't see that at all really.

[SirCowdog]

In case is TLDR: Ground + Flying > ground only. REAL options to choose between ground or flying > no options. Content for BOTH is best.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man. I had a great time treasure hunting and tracking down any rares I stumbled across. If the game had been designed for people flying and just dropping out of the sky instead of exploring and pathfinding...

I had to stop you right there, because if the game had been designed for people flying, it wouldn't just be people dropping out of the sky. The sky itself would contain exploring and pathfinding, as well as other challenges of that nature.

This is the common misconception that I see repeated over and over again by people who haven't bothered to fully consider the possibilities. They just look at the ground game and lament how flying would ruin it. Let me be clear: That has NEVER been disputed. OF COURSE flying ruins a ground-centric design. The point that I have been trying to hammer into people's heads, over and over, is that when flight is made PART of the game(instead of simply slapped on as an afterthought) the options for better gameplay expand, and aren't limited to the simple 2D design that's currently there.

Pay special attention to the wording I used. The OPTION for better gameplay. I'm not saying everyone needs to be forced into the air. I've even suggested multiple times that choosing between ground and flying mounts needs to be a real decision. Similarly, I feel that ground and air-based content are not mutually exclusive.

But what we currently have in WoD, and what it appears that we're getting so far with Legion, is no choice. Do the ground content, ALL OF IT, or gtfo.

... I probably wouldn't have bothered. Likewise with the Apexis zones, I found it a lot more entertaining working out the best or most efficient routes to complete each objective than previous expansions' sky-sniping shopping lists. What they did lack was compelling rewards to keep you coming back, but I don't mind if the content is less stretched.

I find it ironic how similar the feelings that you just descibed are to what most pro-flight people say about ground content. "I wouldn't have bothered.", or "I found it a lot more entertaining to..."
This just goes back to what I said above: The game needs to have options for how players approach the content, and not just one single way.

You keep trying to push this but I find it very unconvincing. Firstly, please explain how it's easier to design the content without flight?

Blizzard's own words were something to the effect of, "Flying causes too many problems for our vision of the content design". The blue post went on to describe how flight ruins the presentation of fighting your way past a fortress wall and some guards to get at a boss, because you can just fly past it all and go straight to the boss.

But keep in mind the context of what I keep trying to get through to you guys. When I say that ground design is easier, I'm talking relative to FULLY INTEGRATED flight, with content made for people on the backs of flying mounts. Floating islands, weather effects and hazards, flying enemies, anti-air cannons, airships, etc. What I am NOT talking about is just making sure that flying players have to kill "Boss + X mobs" instead of swooping in to just take out the boss.

In previous expansions there were some areas they didn't even bother making paths to, just plopped a quest area down and let players fly there, how much less effort do you need? There are also areas with mobs just scattered around willy-nilly because they don't have to worry about how players approach them when they're picking off what they want from the air. Please give examples and explain how Wrath, Cata or MoP's flight-enabled daily zones took less effort to implement than the dozen or so Apexis zones that came with WoD.

My point exactly! Just throwing down weak, ground-based encounters is much easier than actually taking the time to build content that is designed to fully challenge someone on a flying mount.

What you just described was probably more evidence in favor of what I've been pushing since the beginning: Content for flying that isn't lazy. Furthermore, what you described(mobs randomly scattered around) is still present in today's design, and often cited as one of the primary factors of ground-based 'content' that would be destroyed by flying players bypassing it.

I'm not advocating that Blizzard should copy/paste content from previous expansions that had flight. I'm saying Blizzard should learn from those ideas and IMPROVE on them!

Secondly, how are you still trying to say that no-flying is a decision to stretch out subscriptions when by far the biggest complaint about WoD is the lack of things to do? If Blizz were trying to stretch content don't you think they would have allowed players to tackle more than one Apexis zone per day? Maybe given some reward that didn't suck?

In a game where the acquirement of loot is one of the primary goals of the player, and THE primary method of progression at level cap, doesn't it make sense that a good way to slow down players is to highly regulate the speed at which that loot is acquired? What do you think the point of daily and weekly lockouts are for?

WoD had very little content, and what content there was was consumed slower by being on the ground. Ask anyone who has obtained a flying mount how much faster dailies can be completed. The entire design of WoD, in every aspect, is to stretch what little content that's there as far as possible.
I don't understand why you can't see that. What part of it isn't clear? Am I describing it badly?

The way a lot of people talk in this thread it really seems they can't conceive of someone having a different opinion or enjoying the game differently, so intead of accepting that the game is catering to another group's preferences they try to find "objective" reasons, like claiming that disabling flight magically makes the game much cheaper to produce, or asserting the expansion with the least stretched content in WoW's history has been cleverly designed to milk the maximum subscription from the players.

People like myself don't have any problem with someone enjoying the game differently. What we do have a problem with is not being given any choice in the matter, especially after having the way we enjoyed the game for the past 7-8 years removed for no real benefit.

Let me repeat myself, again, for clarity: I don't mind if people want to enjoy the game from the ground. I think Blizzard is fully capable of making amazing ground content. What I DO mind is when Blizzard claims that making ONLY ground content will improve the game, then goes on to skimp on said content, makes excuses about why it wasn't as good as they hyped, then tries to sell us on the same nonsense with a different coat of pain in Legion.

The game should be improving. Removing flight instead of balancing it and giving options and choices to the players is not an improvement. Sticking flight at the end of the content and not even bothering to create any content for flight once it's unlocked is also not an improvement. It's a step backwards.

[wing5wong]

Same with Mythic. Mythic bosses did not seem so different from the heroic mode bosses in the past x-pac (as far as I could tell).

I understand that different people like different things and you might not like content I like and vice versa. However, if you make a statement that designing with flying (or for flexible mythic) in mind is somehow limiting you, I would expect to see different results after you removed the limitations. Even if I don't like the results....... I just didn't see that at all really.

Mythic and heroic from old expacs are the equivelant. Raid bosses this tier were some of the best yet.
Flex mythic isnt not done because its hard to miplement. Its not done because its hard to balance