Thanks Israel once again you've outdone

[Deleted]

The more appropriate question is "how much did the tank it saved cost", not how much did the missile cost...

The answer to that question is 4.5 mill, by the way, tanks are expensive.

This smells like bullshit to me. How many tanks were destroyed by the Palestinians prior to this system coming into operation?

Lest any one forget there is a long history of bullshit concerning military technology sold to the Israelis stretching back to the patriot missiles. I don't mean misleading or inaccurate information-I mean stuff that is now accepted to have just been lies issued for propaganda purposes.

Forgive my scepticism but I've been hearing this stuff about Iron Dome for years, and it is obvious to any one with a rational perspective that it is a horrendous waste of money of epic proportions. Anyone exccept the usual military hardware porn addicts.

[Marcellus1986]

This smells like bullshit to me. How many tanks were destroyed by the Palestinians prior to this system coming into operation?

I don't recall any news stories of Palestinians destroying Israeli tanks.

[Belize]

This smells like bullshit to me. How many tanks were destroyed by the Palestinians prior to this system coming into operation?

Lest any one forget there is a long history of bullshit concerning military technology sold to the Israelis stretching back to the patriot missiles.

Forgive my scepticism but I've been hearing this stuff about Iron Dome for years, and it is obvious to any one with a rational perspective that it is a horrendous waste of money of epic proportions. Any one exccept the usual military hardware porn addicts.

(P.s. this isn't just against Palestine)

You do realize the systems can be used against other armed forces right?

[Schattenlied]

This smells like bullshit to me. How many tanks were destroyed by the Palestinians prior to this system coming into operation?

Preparing for only the enemy you currently fight is not good policy... and it doesn't just keep them from being destroyed, it protects them from heavy damage as well, a non critical hit from an AT weapon can still be very costly to repair, likely more than the APS system cost to begin with.

Lest any one forget there is a long history of bullshit concerning military technology sold to the Israelis stretching back to the patriot missiles.

No one sold this to them, they built it themselves.

and it is obvious to any one with a rational perspective that it is a horrendous waste of money of epic proportions.

Considering it only adds 7-10% to the cost of one of Israel's MBTs, I'd say it's plenty worth it.

[Deleted]

(P.s. this isn't just against Palestine)

You do realize the systems can be used against other armed forces right?

Unless they are going to get their arses kicked in Lebanon again it is difficult to see who. I wouldn't imagine they would have much interest in the civil war in Syria. Egypt is fairly sympathetic at the moment.

[Skroe]

Isn't the Abrams already stretching the limits of what can be built into/onto that chassis?

Nah not really. The M1A3 program is the biggest redesign of the tank ever, but it's very new - only a couple of years old. THrough using lighter weight structural elements and replacing heavy cabling with fiber optics, the goal is to improve weight, fuel efficiency, armor, communications, target-sharing... lots of stuff. It could use a larger, newer gun, and I'm not sure about the plan for that at the moment (as I recall, it was talked about). I huge part of M1A3 is to impliment the post M1A2 upgrades such as TUSK and SEP and stuff used elsehwere, into a few ton lighter basic design.

The older, M1A3 program, if you look around, was abandoned. That idea was to cut the M1A3 weight in half pretty much, through using Titanium and composites, but that's not happening. The newer one is more modest, more practical and more fund-able.


The M1 design will be our tank for another 20+ years most likely. It was supposed to be replaced, along with the M2 Bradely, by the Future Combat System, but that idea was a bust... and it turns out that with the Bradely chassis being used as the new chassis of the Paladin Self Propelled Artillery (which is pretty much a new vehicle with the same name), and as the chasis of the M113 replacement (the so called "Turretless Bradley" design), that lots of elements of the FCS common chassis are happening, just with the Bradley chassis. Which is what should have happened in the first place, 15 years ago (it didn't because the Army wanted something far lighter and air mobile and dependent on Active Protective Systems and Mobility, rather than armor).

The big army procurement program the next decade is in Army Aviation, with Future Vertical Lift, which could be truly game changing (far more range and speed than any modern helicopter), which means something like a whole new tank or armored fighting vehicle family will have to come after, probably on the other side of 2030.

These are the two competitors for that, the Bell V-280 Valor in the top left and the Sikhorsky SB-1 Defiant in the bottom right.

[Deleted]

Preparing for only the enemy you currently fight is not good policy

You say that but this whole concept is predicated on the essentially obsolete concept of mechanized industrialized warfare between nations. This would seem to be contradictory.

[Schattenlied]

fuel efficiency

Hopefully they are planning to drop that gas turbine engine for a diesel, else I don't think they will get much better out of it... those things are horrendously inefficient... No other MBT in the world uses them for a good reason.

[Holas]

Thanks for writing about this. Most prefer to ignore stuff like this. Most also like to say "why USA bothers to be Israel's friend? There is no benefit". Well think of this : China and Russia are NOT Israel's enemies. Without USA-Israel good relations, these systems would appear in their armies instead of the USA.

Would you kindly explain to us what the system costs and what the missile cost?

There's your reason why your country keeps losing wars, and,. judging by the Lebanon debacle, the IDF has picked up your bad habits.

I can easily explain: unlike arab armies where human lives are disposable trash, in Israel, soldier lives matters even if it cost more. On the same principle you could ask - why use iron dome - Hamas missiles costs much less.

Unless they are going to get their arses kicked in Lebanon again it is difficult to see who. I wouldn't imagine they would have much interest in the civil war in Syria. Egypt is fairly sympathetic at the moment.

Here is arab logic right there:
Hizballah lost 4 times more people.
Lebanon was bombed to ground.
Their leader is hiding like a rat for over 10 years.
There been relative quite on that border since that war.
Hizballah leader himself said that if he knew that this would be Israel's response, he would never kidnap the soldiers.

But hey - Israel lost. I guess when you compare it to some other wars where casualties ratio was 10:1 or 15:1 then 4:1 is a "win". I hope you arabs keep "winning" like this.

[Deleted]

I can easily explain: unlike arab armies where human lives are disposable trash, in Israel, soldier lives matters even if it cost more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

Here is arab logic right there:
Hizballah lost 4 times more people.
Lebanon was bombed to ground.
Their leader is hiding like a rat for over 10 years.
There been relative quite on that border since that war.
Hizballah leader himself said that if he knew that this would be Israel's response, he would never kidnap the soldiers.

But hey - Israel lost. I guess when you compare it to some other wars where casualties ratio was 10:1 or 15:1 then 4:1 is a "win". I hope you arabs keep "winning" like this.

Israel got absolutely wrecked unit for unit on the ground. Hezbollah are probably the best ground force in the arab world (counting the IDF). Isreal fled, then bombed in to the ground with no respect for civilian life. Now thats become modus operandi. Why send ground forces in when you can just bomb them ie gaza.

[Holas]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

Yes, in Israel's eyes its better a dead soldier than a captive one. 1 jew = 1000 arabs so its better to not let them have it and use it to pressure release 1000 terrorists who would kill ALOT more later.

Israel got absolutely wrecked unit for unit on the ground. Hezbollah are probably the best ground force in the arab world (counting the IDF). Isreal fled, then bombed in to the ground with no respect for civilian life. Now thats become modus operandi. Why send ground forces in when you can just bomb them ie gaza.

Bullshit. While I wasn't there, my friends were and on the ground they were fucked big time in ground combat. Their only relative success was anti-tank missiles firing from afar, NOT close quarter combat where they dropped like flies.

[Mavett]

This smells like bullshit to me. How many tanks were destroyed by the Palestinians prior to this system coming into operation?

Lest any one forget there is a long history of bullshit concerning military technology sold to the Israelis stretching back to the patriot missiles. I don't mean misleading or inaccurate information-I mean stuff that is now accepted to have just been lies issued for propaganda purposes.

Forgive my scepticism but I've been hearing this stuff about Iron Dome for years, and it is obvious to any one with a rational perspective that it is a horrendous waste of money of epic proportions. Anyone exccept the usual military hardware porn addicts.

Destruction of property has to be covered by the state, same with social security payment to the families if there is a life loss.

The cost of one interceptor is significantly lesser than the stated above and actually saves money.

Got to look at the whole picture and not purely at the cost of a rocket cost fired by Hamas and the cost of an interceptor.

[Deleted]

Studies on effects of radio signal exposure go both ways, but still, probably not super healthy if your dayjob is sitting next to something that's probably on par with a small cell tower in power output :/

Though maybe the bubble shape of the radar is exaggerated and there is a shielded cone under the detection radar, missiles rarely come from directly underneath you after all.

[Deleted]

Studies on effects of radio signal exposure go both ways, but still, probably not super healthy if your dayjob is sitting next to something that's probably on par with a small cell tower in power output :/

Though maybe the bubble shape of the radar is exaggerated and there is a shielded cone under the detection radar, missiles rarely come from directly underneath you after all.

Better than a dayjob where you sit next to a hunk of metal that gets shot by rockets.

[Deleted]

Better than a dayjob where you sit next to a hunk of metal that gets shot by rockets.

that depends on a lot of stuff. i have a feeling that all things considered the amount of tank crew deaths and serious injuries isn't that high compared to the number of tanks that actually take damage. So the major benefit of this system is probably more in saving on repair costs/materiel protection, then it is in saving lives. And it wouldn't be the first time a military underestimates long term health risks or deems them acceptable.

[Deleted]

Isn't the Abrams already stretching the limits of what can be built into/onto that chassis?

Shouldn't become a problem? *cough* Nazi Germany *cough*

[Nadiru]

Shouldn't become a problem? *cough* Nazi Germany *cough*

Americans are way better engineers than the morons running the Nazi tank R&D divisions. Engineers are supposed to strive for simplicity, not complexity, and the Nazi war machine lost sight of that after 1942 or so.

[GennGreymane]

impressiiivvveeee

[Deleted]

Americans are way better engineers than the morons running the Nazi tank R&D divisions. Engineers are supposed to strive for simplicity, not complexity, and the Nazi war machine lost sight of that after 1942 or so.

Congratulations, you lost the war, becuse your wepons was equivalent to your opponents, but you did not counted that the opponents did have a 5 times larger industrial base. The nazi R&D was whipped to make somthing that was 5 times better (and failed)

[Hexian]

That is really cool!