Spoilers: Who is right? Captain America or Iron Man?

[Elim Garak]

I think people with the ability to drop buildings on each other should be revered as gods and rule us all.

[Alydael]

We regulate doctors, lawyers, scientists, hell even taxi cab drivers and we do so for very good reasons. I see no reason that people with the ability to drop buildings on each other shouldn't have similar limits.

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The government does lots of things "right" all the time and has been for years. They planned and executed Omaha beach for example.

I consider the military separate from the government. When I refer to the government, I am mainly talking about our good friends, the politicians in Washington. I have the utmost respect for the military. I have no respect for Washington. I wouldn't hire them to walk my dog....

[slime]

Captain is right, but then again I think Magneto is right and 'superheroes' are a step in evolution (in their fake universe anyhow). And really any human that gets in the way or wants to bring down mutant-kind should be eliminated.

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I think people with the ability to drop buildings on each other should be revered as gods and rule us all.

There you guy, this guy gets it.

[Glorious Leader]

I consider the military separate from the government. When I refer to the government, I am mainly talking about our good friends, the politicians in Washington. I have the utmost respect for the military. I have no respect for Washington. I wouldn't hire them to walk my dog....

Of course you do but the fact is the military is not seperate from the government. In fact the chief of command of the military is a civilian as is the second in command as is the secretary of defence. Many civilians operate within the military and they are all ALL government officials. I mean I can use non military examples of things the government does but the fact is d day is an excellent example of GOVERNMENT PLANNING executed precisely and effectively.

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I think people with the ability to drop buildings on each other should be revered as gods and rule us all.

Which cap wouldn't agree with either.

[Anastacy]

That's exactly what he was fighting for. So long as they agreed with him, at least. But that's how most tyrants go about gaining/keeping their power. You really are blinded by the fact that it's Captain America or some shit.

No, Captain America didn't believe super-powered people could do whatever they wanted.

He fought super-villains. Why did he fight them? Because they were doing things he didn't think they should be doing.

He led a superhero team. Why did he lead them? Because he didn't want them out and about, willy-nilly style.

He even went to the Young Avengers and basically told them that they were too young for super-heroics.

What he didn't want was the government taking super-powered people and pointing them at people/places/things that the government decided were enemies.

I'm not even a Captain America fan. I'm poking holes at your broad generalization. If you want to re-form your argument into something less exaggerated and more concise...well, I'm kind of asking you to. You're wrong until you refine your argument: it's just that simple.

[eschatological]

I consider the military separate from the government. When I refer to the government, I am mainly talking about our good friends, the politicians in Washington. I have the utmost respect for the military. I have no respect for Washington. I wouldn't hire them to walk my dog....

The government largely worked well until a man named Reagan started a revolution of obstructionism to make sure the government didn't work, and then created a platform about railing against government not working. Since then, the fiction of government in Hollywood has similarly followed suit - government is seen either as incompetent and bumbling, or sinister and backroom dealing. It's simply not true, in Hollywood or reality.

[Deleted]

Probably Stan Lee?

[Glorious Leader]

The government largely worked well until a man named Reagan started a revolution of obstructionism to make sure the government didn't work, and then created a platform about railing against government not working. Since then, the fiction of government in Hollywood has similarly followed suit - government is seen either as incompetent and bumbling, or sinister and backroom dealing. It's simply not true, in Hollywood or reality.

You can go through the history of the country and fond government project after government project that not only worked but revolutionized the country. Reconstruction after the civil war, the electrification of the south, the WPA, tenessee valley authority etc etc

Anti government rhetoric aside we subject virtually all people or.instituuons with power to some degree of civilian over site. We regulate doctor's, lawyers, police, food and beverage servers, pharmacists, right down to taxi cab drivers and we do it for a reason. Tony is right on this one as he was in the comic books as cap eventually came to realize as well. I understand caps objection but he served in military he should.understand the chain of command.

[Alydael]

The government largely worked well until a man named Reagan started a revolution of obstructionism to make sure the government didn't work, and then created a platform about railing against government not working. Since then, the fiction of government in Hollywood has similarly followed suit - government is seen either as incompetent and bumbling, or sinister and backroom dealing. It's simply not true, in Hollywood or reality.

I don't see anything to make me believe any different. The failed "wars," our whole middle east policy, the many unfulfilled promises, the fact that our government gets routinely hacked by countries like China and N Korea, the trade agreements they enter into that sends jobs oversea, all of the borrowing from China... the list goes on and on and on and on

[Berengil]

Cap, no question for me. I would trust him with my life. I trust Iron Man to be....well, Iron Man.

There was a Captain America/Wolverine miniseries a few years before the original civil war storyline. The premise of it was that someone was id'ing all mutants and figuring out the best way to take them all down. Cap and Wolverine figure out that it's a SHIELD blackbox project. Cap confronts Sharon Carter and she tries to justify it.

Cap slams his fist down on a table and says the following: " Have you forgotten who you're talking to? I've seen what happens when governments start targeting and listing certain people. I fought to stop that once, and I'll be damned if I allow my country to go down that same road. If I ever find out this project has been restarted, I'll do everything in my power to bring SHIELD crashing down."

Now it's not exactly the same situation, but the principle is the same. And Cap is exactly the good and decent man that Dr. Erskine knew him to be. As Cap says in the trailer, " The safest hands are still my own."

What he told Nick Fury in Winter Soldier ( when Nick showed him the projects underground) also is relevant. " What we did back then , we did so people could be free. This isn't freedom, this is fear."

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Tony is right on this one as he was in the comic books as cap eventually came to realize as well. I understand caps objection but he served in military he should.understand the chain of command.

Forgetting 2 things aren't you?

1) Stark sitting next to Cap's body after he was shot: " it wasn't worth it."

2) The SHRA was eventually abandoned. After Cap was rez'd and made its repeal a condition of his agreeing to rejoin US security.

[mizeri]

captain murica, because of freedom and rights and stuff

[Shadowferal]

1) Stark sitting next to Cap's body after he was shot: " it wasn't worth it."

2) The SHRA was eventually abandoned. After Cap was rez'd and made its repeal a condition of his agreeing to rejoin US security.

To be fair, the "Dark Avengers" were shown to be utter shits. Rogers looked like a saint in comparison.

[Glorious Leader]

Forgetting 2 things aren't you?

1) Stark sitting next to Cap's body after he was shot: " it wasn't worth it."

2) The SHRA was eventually abandoned. After Cap was rez'd and made its repeal a condition of his agreeing to rejoin US security.

1) After caps death Tony had some regrets. It does not mean that he was incorrect.

2) Yea they went ahead and abandoned it when the heroic age started... and now we are back here again with another civil war comic about to be published. Look read the extra stuff in the collected civil war volumnes. Mark Millar talks about sitting in Quesedas room trying to figure out how to end the whole thing when Josh Whedon himself walks in and solves it. Of course registration has to be a thing. It isn't the wild wild west anymore and if cap wins then nothing really changes.

[Leyre]

think of captain america and iron man as general tulius and ulfric stormcloak, both think they are right but, what they dont realize is that there's a superior enemy out there enjoying their conflict

[Berengil]

1) After caps death Tony had some regrets. It does not mean that he was incorrect.

2) Yea they went ahead and abandoned it when the heroic age started... and now we are back here again with another civil war comic about to be published. Look read the extra stuff in the collected civil war volumnes. Mark Millar talks about sitting in Quesedas room trying to figure out how to end the whole thing when Josh Whedon himself walks in and solves it. Of course registration has to be a thing. It isn't the wild wild west anymore and if cap wins then nothing really changes.

As I understand it, the new Civil War is someone finds a mutant who can predict the future with extreme accuracy. Captain marvel wants to go all Minority Report on peeps, Iron man says F no. Frankly in this case I agree with Iron man. use it to watch people and stop them if they start to do something. but punishing someone for something they havent done is bullsht.

And i still agree with Cap on the first one. Freedom over fear, always. For me anyway.

[Nibelheimy]

Who cares? Whats Hulk up to these days?

[Glorious Leader]

As I understand it, the new Civil War is someone finds a mutant who can predict the future with extreme accuracy. Captain marvel wants to go all Minority Report on peeps, Iron man says F no. Frankly in this case I agree with Iron man. use it to watch people and stop them if they start to do something. but punishing someone for something they havent done is bullsht.

And i still agree with Cap on the first one. Freedom over fear, always. For me anyway.

But see it's not that people are scared, at least not in the comic books, it's people making a rational decision based on what super heroes have the ability to do. We make that decision countless times every day. We tell doctors what they can and can't do, we tell lawyers what they can and can't do, police and firemen, army personnel and even taxi cab drivers all fall under some kind of authority. I assume that you accept that we need to have some form of oversight for police and the military? The principle is exactly the same thing behind asking super humans to register. What I find bizarre is that cap doesn't understand this. He was military. He understands the chain of command. Granted shield turned on him and he was on the run for a bit so I can understand his ill ease but he more than anybody should understand the need to have some type of over sight.

[Berengil]

But see it's not that people are scared, at least not in the comic books, it's people making a rational decision based on what super heroes have the ability to do. We make that decision countless times every day. We tell doctors what they can and can't do, we tell lawyers what they can and can't do, police and firemen, army personel and even taxi cab drivers all fall under some kind of authority.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. F the government is pretty much my default position. I always thought it was pretty pathetically obvious the way they moved Hulk off earth and got rid of Thor for awhile. Pretty much knew that neither of them would stand for the SHRA, and with them on team Cap, Iron Fascist...sorry ...Iron Man wouldn't have stood a chance.

I stopped reading marvel books for a long time after reading Civil war #7. Cap giving up? Bull.Sh-t. That was Quesada pushing his fkng agenda. Not to mention Mr Fantastic going against his wife. Totally shtty characterizations all around. Didnt start reading marvel again until Quesada was no longer in charge.

[Rothg]

Captain America, 100%. He is a guy who fights on principle. Not utilitarianism, and thats what I'm all about. I wanna be Cap when I grow up.

[Myrryr]

If the SHRA was written more in line of how Grrlpower handles it, then it'd definitely be the correct choice.

However, the SHRA is literally slavery. In the comics, there is no choice. You have powers, you are working for the government under militaristic rules (not civilian, no quitting, no telling your boss to fuck off, etc.,), or you are imprisoned/killed. Born with a bird beak? You're enslaved. Born with the ability to fly and nothing else? You're enslaved. Born with the ability to hear things super well but also blind? Enslaved.

That's your choice. And that's why it's horribly wrong and violates everything that America stood for, and also why it was a trash storyline because it would have never be written that way in the first place by actual decent writers, but GG Quesada.

On top of that, there are simply people in the Marvel 'verse that you can't apply it to. Hulk being one obviously, but then there's Doc Strange. Ya know, a guy who converses with the embodiment of the Universe (Eternity), routinely stops beings like Dormammu or Shuma'Gorath who are multiversal conquerors, and you want to try to tell him he has to obey the whims of a government proven to be corrupt on one tiny planet? Then there's the obvious Thor, but what about ones like Phoenix? Brother Voodoo? Or heroes with powers that are waaaaay more dangerous/powerful than written in the comics for anyone who could actually think about it for a moment?
If they're actively not threatening you, why the hell would you provoke them? Sure, they can wipe out your planet... but they're not. So why would you deliberately push them to do it by annoying them? That's about as intelligent as throwing rocks at a hornet nest because it's there. (If the hornets were 20ft tall and had laser stingers).

So, realistically, if the SHRA were simply written how the Grrlpower comic handles it, ya know, rationally, then sure, that would be perfect and a good outcome. But the way it's written in the Marvel 'verse? NO. We've been through slavery in this country once, not again.