Blizz should make WoW more sandbox.

[Deleted]

Why would it not be sandbox-rpg's, when that is clearly what the OP means? No one here wants WoW to turn into Sim City.

Yeah but i talked about pure sandbox, for hybrids like you want we have to make the leveling engaging and to a certain extend time consuming. Which I said in my original post.

[Deleted]

Why would it not be sandbox-rpg's, when that is clearly what the OP means? No one here wants WoW to turn into Sim City.

No, the OP did not describe a sandbox MMORPG at all, like I said before.

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I don't know, I've always thought WoW struck a nice balance between sandbox and theme park. You still have multiple choices about where to quest at different levels and the world is more open than pure theme parks like SWTOR. Plus flying doesn't kill the sandbox experience, it enhances it. The assertion that sandbox mmo's are all about choice, yet adding flying makes it less sandbox is contradictory. Taking away flying is taking away choice.

Be careful what you wish for on pure sandbox games. History has shown that the majority of players will give up control to have a more defined game experience. I remember playing Star Wars Galaxies, a pure sandbox game. While some players absolutely loved the freedom of no class structure and user created content, myself included, I think the majority of players who began SWG left because they had no direction or purpose. It's not for everybody, and if you create a big AAA mmo it has to appeal to a wide audience or it will struggle.

All is not lost for sandbox fans however. I think in the future we're going to see less and less of the big studio mmo's and more niche titles. Games like Black Desert and Crowfall, that cater to a specific audience, can thrive. Instead of creating a one size fits all mmo, studios will focus on what best fits the kind of player base they want for their game.

Quality post.

[Deleted]

Arguing about the semantics of sandbox and themepark shouldn't be the discussion, they're not dictionary definitions and everybody interprets it a bit different.

IMO most MMO's are on a scale from sandbox to themepark with few being very pure of either. I think that WoW has and has had more, sandbox features. Most of which have been toned down or removed.

One example is world bosses. Kazzak, Azuregos and the 4 green dragons in vanilla were quite difficult raid bosses which only top guilds could kill. They had random and long respawns with raid quality loot making them very attractive kills for top guilds. So that would lead to the raids scrambling, trying to wipe each other, PvP and chaos. It was amazing fun and that to me is a sandbox feature.

The current verions of world bosses are extremely different and have been adjusted to remove the "sandboxy" elements of it. That's one example of the many things I mentioned.

[Nemb]

Original WoW used to have "sandboxy" elements, something I always call "player generated content".

These were things like putting group together for the dungeon, getting there safely, and starting it up. Old world bosses were also an example of that where guilds from various had to compete for kills and loot. Even first PvP system had such element, with PvP community on each server communicating with each other to sort out the ranks each week.

Unfortunately the current focus on systems instead of content seems to have killed all of the WoW's former sandbox elements, which is not surprising, as systems often remove need for human interactions.

[Seefer]

No, they shouldn't. What you propose is just antisocial.

As opposed to now? More people talked and grouped up back in Vanilla/TBC/WOTLK than now by a mile, the game now is so antisocial I don't even know how it could be called an MMORPG.

[Armourboy]

The game could definitely be a bit better with more sandox type things, but what made WoW successful is that it is was much more straight forward than sandbox. I came from SWG, in terms of MMO's that was about as close as you were going to get ( well Pre-CU anyways).

That said, mode of transportation doesn't really have a thing to do with whether a game is more or less sandbox. Sandbox is all about dropping your ass in the middle of nowhere and saying " go ". How you go about it is all up to you. Heck if anything, the more modes of transportation you add, one could argue the more sandbox it is because it's just a matter of choice at that point.

[Vetis]

Leveling
After the first few zones of leveling you were all over the world, could be leveling and questing in various parts at the same time. Now it's on rails all the way.

This wasn't sandbox, this was poorly planned flow and lack of content. Im sure everyone remembers grinding a few xp bars before more quests would open up. One quest on on side of the world, 20 minutes travel to do 1 quest somewhere else then back again isn't sandbox its time consuming nonsense.

[Armourboy]

This wasn't sandbox, this was poorly planned flow and lack of content. Im sure everyone remembers grinding a few xp bars before more quests would open up. One quest on on side of the world, 20 minutes travel to do 1 quest somewhere else then back again isn't sandbox its time consuming nonsense.

Yeah and having gone back and played it again that is exactly what it was, a time sink. That said, things are overly streamlined now, and there definitely aren't enough " oh hey, here's a random quest in the middle of nowhere" type things. Although I'm not even sure you can do that with all of the quest helper crap in the game now.

[oldgeezer]

As opposed to now? More people talked and grouped up back in Vanilla/TBC/WOTLK than now by a mile, the game now is so antisocial I don't even know how it could be called an MMORPG.

You don't have to talk to other players to interact with them. Spending all day chit-chatting doesn't make a game an MMO. Unless NPCs are buying my auction items and participating in my LF* groups the game is still very much an MMO.

[Deleted]

Original WoW used to have "sandboxy" elements, something I always call "player generated content".

These were things like putting group together for the dungeon, getting there safely, and starting it up. Old world bosses were also an example of that where guilds from various had to compete for kills and loot. Even first PvP system had such element, with PvP community on each server communicating with each other to sort out the ranks each week.

Unfortunately the current focus on systems instead of content seems to have killed all of the WoW's former sandbox elements, which is not surprising, as systems often remove need for human interactions.

None of that is player generated content, seriously. Do you even think before you type?

Communication and interaction is not content, otherwise you might as well just join an active WoW mIRC group and call it "Legion".

[Tijuana]

It's not a sandbox if you can't touch the sand. It's not a complicated term. If you can build things and change the world, it's sandbox. If the only thing in the world you can change is where you stand, or what you kill, it's not sandbox.

[Deleted]

Wow is more than 10 years old, they aren't going to make massive changes, they will just milk it to the last drop by making copy-pasted expansions.

Also, blizzard last good game was wotlk, all their recent games suck. They are polished turds like hearthstone, diablo, hots and soon overwatch.

[Tijuana]

Wow is more than 10 years old, they aren't going to make massive changes, they will just milk it to the last drop by making copy-pasted expansions.

Also, blizzard last good game was wotlk, all their recent games suck. They are polished turds like hearthstone, diablo, hots and soon overwatch.

Such insight, much wisdom. /eye roll

[Akka]

I currently play Black Desert and it feel so much closer to my Vanilla experience than Wow in the past ten years. Black Desert is admittedly a different sandbox game than the "defined" sandbox we're used to, but the fact that you can do anything you want, whenever you want and still have tracks to follow was exactly how Vanilla used to run.

Ironically, this is also what people asked Blizzard for years.

I'm more and more tempted to give BDO a go, but I'm pretty wary of buying yet another MMO and wasting tons of hours trying to get in before realizing that it just doesn't scratch the itch that Vanilla/TBC did.
Is there some decent trial about it ?

[Zandalarian Paladin]

I'm more and more tempted to give BDO a go, but I'm pretty wary of buying yet another MMO and wasting tons of hours trying to get in before realizing that it just doesn't scratch the itch that Vanilla/TBC did.
Is there some decent trial about it ?

If you can manage it, you can grab a 7 day trial from people who don't use theirs. You get a trial when you purchase the game, so these people can gift it to allow someone to try.

[Kalador]

No, if you want a sandbox mmo go play a sandbox mmo, stop trying to turn wow into something it's not and never was.

[guardian_titan]

A sandbox is a game like the Sims where you can choose how your character looks and customize virtually everything. You can choose to do (or not do) things which may or may not result in other things changing.

WoW is an RPG. RPGs by nature aren't really sandboxes. You're given quests to do which gives you structure and guidance alongside a story. The only sandbox element there is you can choose to do the quests or not. Regardless, you don't choose how to do the quest. There's always a right way to do it. Even the fill the bar quests in WoD had some structure. You either killed mobs or clicked objects. You couldn't just stand there as the bar filled on its own or talked to NPCs to fill the bar. You can choose how to fill the bar, but you're still limited in how you can fill it due to the RPG aspect of the quest. When you go into a dungeon, you don't decide how to complete it. Only way to get loot is to kill everything. In a sandbox, you might get the option to be a pacifist and talk your way through while still getting loot as a result. Or you might be given alternate paths to take. In WoW, you can't make your own quests or build your own dungeons. In sandboxes, you can do those things. In an RPG, you're given the story to follow. In a sandbox, YOU write the story and make it your own. Or you can just chose to not do a story at all and do random things. Just because WoW has a large map where you can choose where you go doesn't make it a sandbox. That just makes it a massively open world game.

WoW isn't a sandbox and never was. WoW has a lot more structure than a sandbox and always has.

[Kryos]

I agree that WoW could use some things that users can customize the way they want to keep you busy and allow you to be unique. Transmogging is pretty much the only thing where you can become at little bit creative by combining sets and farm special looks. That's about it.

[sethman75]

Sandbox is becoming very boring real quick.

Would much rather a crafted experience rather than checking an icon off the map with an illusion of freedom

[Kuntantee]

Leveling
It needs to take much longer, at least 10 times longer. It also needs to be non-linear: several different hubs within a zone that player can pick at a given time and 2, 3 zones options per 2, 3 level (WotLK model). Quests need to involve several zones, exotic places in the world.

Why it is not going to happen: Longer questing means more quests per zone, effectively meaning increased production cost. Linear questing is easy to produce, costs much less money and time. It allows developers to produce much less number of zones and one or two number of hubs within a zone, effectively meaning less number of parallel stories within a zone. Also, cross-zone quests are more complex and costs more.

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Customization
Indeed, current talent system doesn't fit an RPG. We could is a more in-depth talent tree. They can find a balance between having a talent tree with some depth in it and class balance.

Why it is not going to happen: It requires so much resources to produce a relatively-balanced tree-like talent for all classes in the game. These kind of stuff is often developed when the game is being developed, not in addon development.

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PvP
The PvP in game is fucking boring. If I wanted to play a instanced PvP, I would go play a Dota 2. I want unstructured, chaotic PvP engagements in open world involving a dynamic bounty system. Here is a bounty system suggestion of mine:

What this game needs is the concept developed around mobas, the perfect imbalance. It flavors the PvP. PvP is boring, yes, because every class is fucking same. I've stopped playing PvP in Cata. If you want high activity in PvP,

• Gear needs to be unified. There should be PvE way of getting gear and PvP. Same in terms of stats, different in terms of look*.
• Flying should be disabled on the latest continent.
• A warrior should face roll a rogue. A mage should destroy a warrior and a rogue should one-shot a mage. The game desperately needs a cyclical imbalance aka a perfect imbalance.
• Classes should feel unique and expertise in a certain area. Rogue were known for long stuns, frost mages and druids were known for kiting, (discipline) priests were known for their durability in a fight, etc. etc.
• Engaging in PvP content in non-instanced areas (the newest continent -- the broken isles) should be encouraged. For this reason, a bounty system is required.

Bounty System:

• If you kill people in outside of instanced PvP territories, a bounty will be placed on your head, increasing as you keep killing people. There will be some tips on your latest seen location, refreshing every 10 min. For example, if you visit a town, guards will dispatch the news. However, if you keep yourself outside of towns, there will be no tip. Killing people with high bounty will reward stuff. After reaching a certain threshold, players will be labeled as "criminals" and will not be allowed to enter Dalaran. In criminal status, killing people will grant some special rewards. In addition, criminals can be targeted by players of their own faction. Their murderous attitute is not welcome even within their own faction.
  
• Another extension to this bounty system is "custom bounties" which placed by players over other players rewarding any currency, given from the players' own currency pools. There will be an objective number, the number of times you want your your guy dead. If you want some people to grief your guy, it could be like 10-20 kills or something. To prevent currency transfers, there will be a limit for the currencies other than gold. The limit will be on reciever's end, meaning you can put bounties with all of your currency. However, one person can not get all of it. Fulfilling custom bounties will grant certain titles. Players can put bounties for both enemy faction and their own faction. The service will be provided by players from different factions depending on who's head you need. If it's a fellow Horde, an Alliance bounty hunter will do the job for you. If it's an Alliance player, a fellow horde will do the job. Bounty vacancies will be refreshed with every reset. Custom bounties will be managed from a special place, like a bounty hunter tavern (Star Wars).

*I personally think it should be like vanilla where quality loot is only looted from dungeons and raids with no catch-up mechanism. However, for the sake of aiming for a bigger audience, I wrote something different for gear acquisition.

Why it is not going to happen: Either due to design decision or optimization of production costs.

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Conclusion: WoW needs to be less about optimizing development cost and milking player base and more about producing a true mmorpg.