Mafia 68: The West Wing

[Dendrek]

Kryllian's claim wasn't at all surprising, to be honest. I have no doubt the character is true. That doesn't guarantee anything about the alignment. I mostly only asked for his claim to see if he might claim a TPR.

You're right that I need to reconsider the teams. Unfortunately, you being town is the most upsetting factor to my original theory. You as scum made the teams I theorized make so much sense. You as town makes makes everyone but Danner and you (and maybe Catta) potential scum. I'll look back through the thread though and try to have something substantial in the next few hours.

As for what I planned to sit on, it was actually Celtic being Bartlet. I didn't want to tell him that's who I thought he was in case he was scum. (If I told him and he was scum, he almost certainly would have counter claimed you, and my having told him would mean I couldn't be sure he was telling the truth. I needed him to counter you without my influence in order to have any confidence in it.)

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Reticence is lying, then. Or there's something else at play such as somebody else influencing an appeal before it goes through to Ret. That was something that Virothe's role hinted at, no? Though I have no way of proving it other than requesting to be lynched today rather than tomorrow or any other day when the stakes are even higher. My guess is that President Bartlett is either on a scum team himself or he's third party. He could very well be a serial killer of some sort - though that's only speculation.

Bear in mind that Reticence had multiple opportunities to point out that I was lying if he truly believed that. He could have done so around the same time that Val was lynched. Or he could have done it towards the start of the day phase as it would count as critical information. Instead he saw fit to leave it until we had less then ten hours left - which doesn't exactly give me much time to defend myself properly especially with various players boasting different time zones.

Unfortunately there isn't really going to be any hard evidence presented from either of us today as this is literally a case of 'X said this, Y said that'.

I haven't dismissed the possibility Ret isn't the President, but if he is the President, he is not an SK or a mafian. There's no way an SK would be given a Governor role. There's no way a mafian would have denied Dupti's appeal. And it seems highly unlikely that the President would be a mafian anyways given that none of the other mafians have been characters from the show. (Although, I suppose if Cruelle really wanted to confuse the shit out of us, he could have made the President a mafian just for the lulz.)

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@Reticence: I've come up with my own apocalyptic scenario. What if there is NO President at all this game? :P I mean, we've assumed that a player is deciding on the appeals, but what if it's actually a majority vote (from players with a role like Virothe's) that decides the appeals. I don't think this is the case, but if it is and you fake claimed Bartlet anyways, kudos to you. I resign myself to defeat.

[Reticence]

Reticence is lying, then. Or there's something else at play such as somebody else influencing an appeal before it goes through to Ret. That was something that Virothe's role hinted at, no?

Even if they did, you still claimed that you had to submit in the day-thread when I know that isn't the case.

Bear in mind that Reticence had multiple opportunities to point out that I was lying if he truly believed that. He could have done so around the same time that Val was lynched. Or he could have done it towards the start of the day phase as it would count as critical information. Instead he saw fit to leave it until we had less then ten hours left - which doesn't exactly give me much time to defend myself properly especially with various players boasting different time zones.

I've been asking you questions about the appeal since you filed it. I needed you to state it for the record so that you couldn't backpedal, and you didn't do that until today when you were responding to Dendrek. I also wanted to use that knowledge to try to confirm my suspicions on Kryllian and trap him, as well.

I knew the moment I brought it up, the topic would become the focus of today, so I needed to use the time I had to gather as much information as I could.

Also, ten hours? You've already had ten hours since I claimed and accused you of lying.

Kryllian's claim wasn't at all surprising, to be honest. I have no doubt the character is true. That doesn't guarantee anything about the alignment. I mostly only asked for his claim to see if he might claim a TPR.

Of course. One misgiving I have is that the scum that have flipped thus far have been in Congress. At first glance, Christie kind of fits in with the rest of the presidential candidates.

I needed him to counter you without my influence in order to have any confidence in it.)

Makes sense. I would have done the same.

[Dendrek]

Of course. One misgiving I have is that the scum that have flipped thus far have been in Congress. At first glance, Christie kind of fits in with the rest of the presidential candidates.

That's a fair point. I had considered it. Don't forget that Palawin was a Senator too. I'm not confident all scum are Senators, despite all the scum so far having been.

[Reticence]

@Reticence: I've come up with my own apocalyptic scenario. What if there is NO President at all this game? :P I mean, we've assumed that a player is deciding on the appeals, but what if it's actually a majority vote (from players with a role like Virothe's) that decides the appeals. I don't think this is the case, but if it is and you fake claimed Bartlet anyways, kudos to you. I resign myself to defeat.

Hah! I think I'm way too cautious a player to even consider fake-claiming Josiah Bartlet in a West Wing game. If I did and won, though, I'd consider it such a victory that I'd probably permanently retire from mafia games.

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That's a fair point. I had considered it. Don't forget that Palawin was a Senator too. I'm not confident all scum are Senators, despite all the scum so far having been.

Hm. I had forgotten that Palawin was a Senator. And Kel was a Congressman, too.

Although let's be real; there was no way Anthony Weiner was going to be given a special role.

[Graeham]

Well, if nothing else I at least know why Val wasn't saved.

[Dendrek]

I want @Celtic209 to claim.

I struggle to imagine what he could possibly be. But if he's not Bartlet, then I no longer have reason to trust him.

With regards to Graeham: The fact you deny what Ret said means that if he IS President Bartlet, you are scum. For that reason, I will be voting on you. But for now:

Vote Celtic

The reality is that until I know what Celtic is, I cannot form a solid idea on what the makeup of the scum teams might be.

DO NOT let Celtic get more than 2 votes. Scum will easily push him to lynch if he's actually a TPR.

[Danner]

@Reticence: I've come up with my own apocalyptic scenario. What if there is NO President at all this game? :P I mean, we've assumed that a player is deciding on the appeals, but what if it's actually a majority vote (from players with a role like Virothe's) that decides the appeals. I don't think this is the case, but if it is and you fake claimed Bartlet anyways, kudos to you. I resign myself to defeat.

The mafia game designer stuck in my stomach approves of this thinking. This is the kind of twist I am looking for in games I design at least.

The realist in me has to reject it though. I find it more likely the president is in the game, and I believe Ret is the president as he claims, at least unless someone (celtic?) counterclaims. I'm not 100% sure the president is town, but ret is pretty far down on my list on people I want to lynch at this point.

I would still like a claim from Robozerim. And Celtic, thinking about it since he's no longer my president read. But mostly Robo.

[Dendrek]

Reticence is lying, then. Or there's something else at play such as somebody else influencing an appeal before it goes through to Ret.

The issue I have with this statement is that you seem to be saying someone else framed you by adding a reason to your appeal that you did not add. If I'm reading this right, that means you submitted an appeal (without any reason stated), someone else got it, added their own reason (trying to make it look like it was your reason), then someone else got it, added their own input (according to Ret, it looked like this last "someone else" was Senna), and then Ret got it.

Why would someone else (the first "someone else") add a reason to your appeal that sounds like something you would say, without being overtly scummy.... JUST to have a reason attached to it? Could they have anticipated that I would be suspicious that you seemingly added a reason for your appeal that wasn't posted in the game thread because that would counter your claim (which you only admitted today) that you had to post in the game thread?

That theory is so convoluted it probably doesn't make sense how I wrote it. Which makes it all the more infeasible. You suggesting someone doctored your appeal with something so subtle (and hardly incriminating, given the original context) just so it could be used against you today is silly.

Again, if Ret is lying, it's because he's scum and is not the President. If Ret is the President, YOU are lying.

[Deleted]

@Dendrek - I'm pointing it out because we have to make a decision.

I'm Matt Albright. I think this is a play on Madeleine Albright.

@Catta You have? Okay. I guess there really isn't a reason not to claim at this point.

My character name is Colin Rice (obviously a portmanteau of Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice) and, in this apparently power-filled game, I, ilke, Valyrian before me, am just a VT.

I think this is a lie. Up until now it's been a gender swap for the vts not a combination

[Dendrek]

@Dendrek - I'm pointing it out because we have to make a decision.

I'm Matt Albright. I think this is a play on Madeleine Albright.

I'm not Bartlet but apparently I am/was white house staff

This is rather interesting.

[Graeham]

The issue I have with this statement is that you seem to be saying someone else framed you by adding a reason to your appeal that you did not add. If I'm reading this right, that means you submitted an appeal (without any reason stated), someone else got it, added their own reason (trying to make it look like it was your reason), then someone else got it, added their own input (according to Ret, it looked like this last "someone else" was Senna), and then Ret got it.

Why would someone else (the first "someone else") add a reason to your appeal that sounds like something you would say, without being overtly scummy.... JUST to have a reason attached to it? Could they have anticipated that I would be suspicious that you seemingly added a reason for your appeal that wasn't posted in the game thread because that would counter your claim (which you only admitted today) that you had to post in the game thread?

That theory is so convoluted it probably doesn't make sense how I wrote it. Which makes it all the more infeasible. You suggesting someone doctored your appeal with something so subtle (and hardly incriminating, given the original context) just so it could be used against you today is silly.

Again, if Ret is lying, it's because he's scum and is not the President. If Ret is the President, YOU are lying.

I put forward that particular theory because of the wording on Virothe's role card in regards to him supposedly having 'great sway' over the appeal's committee. If we go with the 'two scum team' theory then it's possible that there's another player with a similar role who could have influenced it before it was sent to Ret.

We also know that someone launched an appeal on Dupti's behalf. I'd be interested in knowing what, exactly, Ret was told in regards to that particular appeal.

[Deleted]

This is rather interesting.

Secretary of state is part of the white house is it not?

[Dendrek]

I put forward that particular theory because of the wording on Virothe's role card in regards to him supposedly having 'great sway' over the appeal's committee. If we go with the 'two scum team' theory then it's possible that there's another player with a similar role who could have influenced it before it was sent to Ret.

We also know that someone launched an appeal on Dupti's behalf. I'd be interested in knowing what, exactly, Ret was told in regards to that particular appeal.

Maybe you're missing my point.

Ret has claimed the following:
1) All appeals (including yours) were able to be submitted privately. You were not required to post in the game thread.
2) Your appeal came with a message explaining why Valyrian shouldn't be lynched, a message that looked like it was from you.

You claimed:
1) You had to post your appeal in the game thread.
2) Ret is lying (I assume about one or more of the above two statements).

Please answer the following:
1) Did you or did you not provide a reason for your appeal?
2) Is that reason you stated consistent with what Ret said he got?
3) Did you provide that reason in your QT?
4) Why couldn't you have made the full appeal in your QT?

[KurenaiXIII]

@Dendrek - I'm pointing it out because we have to make a decision.

I'm Matt Albright. I think this is a play on Madeleine Albright.




I think this is a lie. Up until now it's been a gender swap for the vts not a combination

Unless it's a coincidence, and Colin is simply a nameswap for Condoleeza. *shrug* I read it as a combination of Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice.

[Dendrek]

Secretary of state is part of the white house is it not?

Why were you continuing the soft claim farce of being a TPR? When you said you are/were White House staff, it looked like you were saying you were on Bartlet's staff.

[KurenaiXIII]

Additionally, I find it interesting that you're fixing on my character name claim when there are arguably far more important goings-on happening right now.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I find myself wanting to believe Reticence. With Uggor in mind, I'm still reserved about the whole matter.

[Deleted]

Unless it's a coincidence, and Colin is simply a nameswap for Condoleeza. *shrug* I read it as a combination of Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice.

That's actually quite possible. He'll of a coincidence :-p

Why were you continuing the soft claim farce of being a TPR? When you said you are/were White House staff, it looked like you were saying you were on Bartlet's staff.

Is it not obvious? I was trying hard to bait a night kill and muddy the waters for scum. I'm willing to bet they took the bait at least once

[Reticence]

We also know that someone launched an appeal on Dupti's behalf. I'd be interested in knowing what, exactly, Ret was told in regards to that particular appeal.

The player that filed the appeal suggested that Dendrek might be a doctor, but not for town.

[Deleted]

Additionally, I find it interesting that you're fixing on my character name claim when there are arguably far more important goings-on happening right now.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I find myself wanting to believe Reticence. With Uggor in mind, I'm still reserved about the whole matter.

Well shite I thought I caught you in a lie. Shame on me for following that line of thought

[Graeham]

Please answer the following:
1) Did you or did you not provide a reason for your appeal?
2) Is that reason you stated consistent with what Ret said he got?
3) Did you provide that reason in your QT?
4) Why couldn't you have made the full appeal in your QT?

1 - No.
2 - It isn't. I simply stated that I wished to appeal against Val's lynch within this very thread. Anything added on top on that didn't come from me.
3 - I don't have a QT. Nor did I send a PM to Cruelle.
4 - See above.

I suspect that there's a subtle difference in regards to how scum make an appeal compared to how town go about it. It just makes sense to me - because town don't need to hide who it is they're trying to protect.

I also pointed out earlier in the thread that Cruelle likes to include interesting systems in her game, much like the 'wish system' in the Buffy game. With that in mind I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the appeal system turns out to be more complicated then it appears at a glance.