Poll: Do you want Shadowstep back?

  1. #2381
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhavok View Post
    seriously? the PvP ladder says otherwise, you see combat rogues all over. Perhaps in PvE isn't as good. But hey, yeah..people spec sub for the raid.
    Burst with red buff ≠ overall dps. Overall combat is one of the worst single target specs in the game but yes it can burst hard after it's big ramp up.
    Last edited by Wow; 2016-04-24 at 03:59 PM.

  2. #2382
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Burst with red buff ≠ overall dps. Overall combat is one of the worst single target specs in the game but yes it can burst hard after it's big ramp up.
    and that is why sub will be the pvp spec in legion with all of those % increases during stealth.
    My question is about the other 3 specs for PvE. I guess it is combat? and as always assassination is just for the funs?

  3. #2383
    The draenor Blade Flurry perk (which is now being carried on into Legion) has made the spec into an AoE/Cleave machine. Blade Flurry with unlimited targets is huge, and changes things drastically compared to before WoD. So you can't compare things to SoO or prior. And in no way if you were in a competitive raiding guild would you be allowed to play Combat for ST in Highmaul or Foundry. Not buying that.

    Sorry guys, the spec is one massive tuning update from wrecking Outlaw in ST. I'm not super happy about it, as I think the specs actually gameplay needs lots of work (think this has been brought up enough) but it is what it is. We're gonna be playing this or Assn for ST, and it's likely Sub.
    H Tichondrius - V I S C E R A L

  4. #2384
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaxy View Post
    The draenor Blade Flurry perk (which is now being carried on into Legion) has made the spec into an AoE/Cleave machine. Blade Flurry with unlimited targets is huge, and changes things drastically compared to before WoD. So you can't compare things to SoO or prior. And in no way if you were in a competitive raiding guild would you be allowed to play Combat for ST in Highmaul or Foundry. Not buying that.

    Sorry guys, the spec is one massive tuning update from wrecking Outlaw in ST. I'm not super happy about it, as I think the specs actually gameplay needs lots of work (think this has been brought up enough) but it is what it is. We're gonna be playing this or Assn for ST, and it's likely Sub.
    I really hope it's Sub, and that they do something more with it. I don't mind it being a ST niche, but it needs to be amazing at it, and also not be terrible for add switching.

    AoE and Add switching looks extremely important for the new Mythics where groups of adds get a power up when seeing a friendly die. So getting them all down ASAP is going to be crucial.

  5. #2385
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhavok View Post
    and that is why sub will be the pvp spec in legion with all of those % increases during stealth.
    It maybe the pvp spec for more reasons than that the other specs mobility got gutted while sub gets step and cloak and dagger lol.

    But based on pure burst dmg assassination in current tuning is pretty crazy. It basically can has all the burst it has on live but snd and dispatch's dmg has been replaced with active dmg from bleeds then the artifact further increases dmg during vendetta then the pvp talents increase dmg more then kingsbane increases burst even more.

    Assassination is kind of like a wod and mop feral in one as far as dmg. It has very high burst when needed and lots of sustained and dot dmg outside of it. But the spec is lacking a lot of other things.

    Combat maybe pretty rng but it being able to massively lower the cd on cloak, blind, between the eyes, Riposte, grappling hook, dfa, and more is pretty big 15secs off every finisher when some of these only have 20-30sec cd's... As well as you being able to get second wind that last 40+ secs at any hp (3%\sec) and it's the only spec with gouge which cost has been lowered and positional removed.

    As far as pve if combat has good st there will be no other spec you can be. Assassination aoe is too rng sub aoe is trash and both single target will have to be tuned way up to be relevant overall if that happens.
    Last edited by Wow; 2016-04-24 at 06:59 PM.

  6. #2386
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaxy View Post
    The draenor Blade Flurry perk (which is now being carried on into Legion) has made the spec into an AoE/Cleave machine. Blade Flurry with unlimited targets is huge, and changes things drastically compared to before WoD. So you can't compare things to SoO or prior. And in no way if you were in a competitive raiding guild would you be allowed to play Combat for ST in Highmaul or Foundry. Not buying that.

    Sorry guys, the spec is one massive tuning update from wrecking Outlaw in ST. I'm not super happy about it, as I think the specs actually gameplay needs lots of work (think this has been brought up enough) but it is what it is. We're gonna be playing this or Assn for ST, and it's likely Sub.
    Seems like we havent got this lie about "want single target? always subtlety" around for too long, need to feed it more. Maybe your ignorance is one of the reasons why devs cba with rogue feedback.

  7. #2387
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurinth View Post
    Seems like we havent got this lie about "want single target? always subtlety" around for too long, need to feed it more. Maybe your ignorance is one of the reasons why devs cba with rogue feedback.
    Lol? What is this. Sorry for the dose of reality, unicorn dreamer. When a spec has BLADE FLURRY it becomes the AoE/Cleave spec. If Outlaw were tuned to have good ST it's AoE and Cleave would be utterly insane.

    You're really clueless.

    Edit: not to mention if you read my posts I said Sub or Assn for ST. Great reading comprehension.
    Last edited by Smaxy; 2016-04-24 at 07:08 PM.
    H Tichondrius - V I S C E R A L

  8. #2388
    Deleted
    History proves you wrong. This is like first tier ever where Combat has bad single target because of ring and encounter durations and you are making your assumptions from it.

    And you do not really get progress kills with opener burst. Unicorn

  9. #2389
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurinth View Post
    History proves you wrong. This is like first tier ever where Combat has bad single target because of ring and encounter durations and you are making your assumptions from it.

    And you do not really get progress kills with opener burst. Unicorn
    Sub was better for ST for both BrF and Highmaul. The margin wasn't as high as in HFC, but Sub was still better. Oh also, Sub and Assn were both better for progression on ST before you got your 735 ring and when fights were longer. I cant believe I'm actually arguing this with someone. So, no, history didn't prove me wrong. Only thing that got proved here was that you're living in la la land.

    You're downright delusional lol.

    As long as Outlaw/Combat has Blade Flurry and the other two Rogue specs don't have even comparable AoE capability, Sub or Assn (if not both) will be better for ST. Sorry dude! );

    Edit: I guess all this work Shadohw put in is for naught.. Seems like he's incorrect about the strengths and weaknesses of the different specs.. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ue-Tips-Tricks LOL kidding. Thanks for making my day.
    Last edited by Smaxy; 2016-04-24 at 09:25 PM.
    H Tichondrius - V I S C E R A L

  10. #2390
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    I honestly don't understand why you guys are complaining so much. Sub on live is so horribly boring, and having to keep up snd snd rupture SUCKS. This legion changes is way better. What exactly is so bad? Having to keep up the 20% dmg buff? Beats current upkeep...

    In PvP this will be amazing.

    Only reason I am still not 100% sure I want to main this is because of the look of the artifact weapons...
    Ladys and gentlemen, Blizzards new rogue poster child....MiiiMiii!!!

    Head on down to your class hall and check out your transmog wardrobe today!

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2016-04-26 at 07:44 AM.

  11. #2391
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaxy View Post
    The draenor Blade Flurry perk (which is now being carried on into Legion) has made the spec into an AoE/Cleave machine. Blade Flurry with unlimited targets is huge, and changes things drastically compared to before WoD. So you can't compare things to SoO or prior. And in no way if you were in a competitive raiding guild would you be allowed to play Combat for ST in Highmaul or Foundry. Not buying that.

    Sorry guys, the spec is one massive tuning update from wrecking Outlaw in ST. I'm not super happy about it, as I think the specs actually gameplay needs lots of work (think this has been brought up enough) but it is what it is. We're gonna be playing this or Assn for ST, and it's likely Sub.
    Sorry Bro... @Aurinth
    H Tichondrius - V I S C E R A L

  12. #2392
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaxy View Post
    Sub was better for ST for both BrF and Highmaul. The margin wasn't as high as in HFC, but Sub was still better. Oh also, Sub and Assn were both better for progression on ST before you got your 735 ring and when fights were longer. I cant believe I'm actually arguing this with someone. So, no, history didn't prove me wrong. Only thing that got proved here was that you're living in la la land.

    You're downright delusional lol.

    As long as Outlaw/Combat has Blade Flurry and the other two Rogue specs don't have even comparable AoE capability, Sub or Assn (if not both) will be better for ST. Sorry dude! );

    Edit: I guess all this work Shadohw put in is for naught.. Seems like he's incorrect about the strengths and weaknesses of the different specs.. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ue-Tips-Tricks LOL kidding. Thanks for making my day.
    MMO-Champion guide is really tough argument mate, yes he is wrong in some things. Same as you are wrong with your shit analysis based on shit arguments and shit experience. Yes Subtlety was "better" for single target. Like 500 dps better. On ideal encounter. Well guess what, we raid reality. It sucked dick on last boss (because its long encounter w/o opener so in fact you did LESS boss/big add damage than combat) and it was mandatory only on 1 boss, thats Butcher, because you couldnt KS. Without that Im sure I wouldnt even touch that spec, because entire raid was so heavy cleave fest that I could wipe my ass with my "Im gonna do 500 dps more to boss while other guys kill the rest for me = SCIENCE".

    Moving on to Foundry, Subtlety gained a bit and I admit playing it more often but again its Gruul (annoying KS), Oregorger (intermissions favoured Sub), Kormrok (annoying KS) and Blackhand (yes, clearly because of Subtlety single target kappa). Thogar, Furnace, Flamebender are all same case as Imperator, you could do much more on priority targets with Combat and that is with Furnace being almost single target with in mind. Seriously go check some Foundry logs, Combat is few % behind Subtlety parses and that is with noone playing it.

    I mean I dont even know why I talk to you, because only idiot can write posts like you did, but for some reason Im annoyed with all of this Subtlety shit, one good tier in last 5 years and everyone is like "Subtlety single target". And the funniest thing is you didnt even play it this time on many hard bosses (first kills arch were assa, mannoroth combat, xhul combat). But I wasnt really talking about HFC, that was just one point and that still stands. I dont know I guess you should learn to control your testosterone, because playing overpowered spec on farm doesnt mean anything. There is no reason why they should buff Subtlety damage how you are describing it and they probably wont do that, same as there is no reason to punish Combat, because its cleave perk (the root of all evil right?) isnt even used in majority of serious encounters, right? Are you even raiding or what? Have you seen some of encounters? Also keep in mind that they consider Nightblade multidot as alternative to Blade Flurry, so its no "single target spec" in their minds. But I guess it will do a bit more, but this time theres also artifact, relics wont fall from the sky, and for Subtlety this is actually big "fuck you" because like you remember those times when dagger dropped "oh ok Ill take it if noone else", those are gone. So better start praying your Subtlety is at least as OP on single target as you are describing, because otherwise I guess Ill pass it to you. So you can theorycraft in 2 years like you played Subtlety and "contributed".

    Oh and btw, I enjoy my la la land and am glad that I do not raid in competitive guild, because I really wouldnt like someone telling me what to play.
    Last edited by mmoc2127cc2147; 2016-04-24 at 11:19 PM.

  13. #2393
    Banned Cebel's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Arkansas, United States
    Posts
    2,058
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurinth View Post
    you remember those times when dagger dropped "oh ok Ill take it if noone else", those are gone.

    So outside of all the drama. I actually wanna make a point that this is a severe problem.

    Why are we being forced into 1 spec for all of progression? I hate that. Make relics apply to all artifacts you have. Theres no reason to lock players into 1 spec, and it does nothing but punish good players from knowing how to play all the specs by not allowing them to change their playstyle to fit the encounter.

    Its annoying and unnecessary. I'm heavily considering going back to a hybrid DPS class just so that I know the inevitable mythic week balancing tweaks don't screw me over completely.

  14. #2394
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    So outside of all the drama. I actually wanna make a point that this is a severe problem.

    Why are we being forced into 1 spec for all of progression? I hate that. Make relics apply to all artifacts you have. Theres no reason to lock players into 1 spec, and it does nothing but punish good players from knowing how to play all the specs by not allowing them to change their playstyle to fit the encounter.

    Its annoying and unnecessary. I'm heavily considering going back to a hybrid DPS class just so that I know the inevitable mythic week balancing tweaks don't screw me over completely.
    It might hurt a few pure classes here and there if you're racing for server firsts and stuff but lets face it you're gona end up maxing all 3 specs regardless. Expansion cycles are long as fuck.

  15. #2395
    Deleted
    More like you kill the boss before you max your first one.

  16. #2396
    damn this thread got spicy

  17. #2397
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurinth View Post
    MMO-Champion guide is really tough argument mate, yes he is wrong in some things. Same as you are wrong with your shit analysis based on shit arguments and shit experience. Yes Subtlety was "better" for single target. Like 500 dps better. On ideal encounter. Well guess what, we raid reality. It sucked dick on last boss (because its long encounter w/o opener so in fact you did LESS boss/big add damage than combat) and it was mandatory only on 1 boss, thats Butcher, because you couldnt KS. Without that Im sure I wouldnt even touch that spec, because entire raid was so heavy cleave fest that I could wipe my ass with my "Im gonna do 500 dps more to boss while other guys kill the rest for me = SCIENCE".

    Moving on to Foundry, Subtlety gained a bit and I admit playing it more often but again its Gruul (annoying KS), Oregorger (intermissions favoured Sub), Kormrok (annoying KS) and Blackhand (yes, clearly because of Subtlety single target kappa). Thogar, Furnace, Flamebender are all same case as Imperator, you could do much more on priority targets with Combat and that is with Furnace being almost single target with in mind. Seriously go check some Foundry logs, Combat is few % behind Subtlety parses and that is with noone playing it.

    I mean I dont even know why I talk to you, because only idiot can write posts like you did, but for some reason Im annoyed with all of this Subtlety shit, one good tier in last 5 years and everyone is like "Subtlety single target". And the funniest thing is you didnt even play it this time on many hard bosses (first kills arch were assa, mannoroth combat, xhul combat). But I wasnt really talking about HFC, that was just one point and that still stands. I dont know I guess you should learn to control your testosterone, because playing overpowered spec on farm doesnt mean anything. There is no reason why they should buff Subtlety damage how you are describing it and they probably wont do that, same as there is no reason to punish Combat, because its cleave perk (the root of all evil right?) isnt even used in majority of serious encounters, right? Are you even raiding or what? Have you seen some of encounters? Also keep in mind that they consider Nightblade multidot as alternative to Blade Flurry, so its no "single target spec" in their minds. But I guess it will do a bit more, but this time theres also artifact, relics wont fall from the sky, and for Subtlety this is actually big "fuck you" because like you remember those times when dagger dropped "oh ok Ill take it if noone else", those are gone. So better start praying your Subtlety is at least as OP on single target as you are describing, because otherwise I guess Ill pass it to you. So you can theorycraft in 2 years like you played Subtlety and "contributed".

    Oh and btw, I enjoy my la la land and am glad that I do not raid in competitive guild, because I really wouldnt like someone telling me what to play.
    Mate, we're on different pages here. If you aren't pushing progression, you can raid frankly whatever you want. My point was always stressed around the best numbers for progression. Just don't go around and and call me "ignorant" and blaming me for the "devs cant be assed with Rogues" when I'm looking at things through a competitive raiding lens. I even said so in my posts... Also, I couldn't find one thing in Shadohw's guide that was wrong.

    My point was that due to the nature of having Blade Flurry and how powerful it is, it is very likely that Outlaw will be on the lower end of ST because of just how it works mechanically. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that giving the spec with Blade Flurry also top ST is not a very good balancing choice (although after seeing how they left Arms Warrior in early HFC you never know what Blizzard will do lol). I'm not telling you how to play I'm telling you what to reasonably expect when Simcraft results come out for 7.0/7.1 whatever.

    Don't get all rustled and triggered for no reason when I'm talking about something that you yourself said you are never going to be interested in (competitive raiding). I'm done here, next time dont flip a shit whenever someone brings up that a spec with ST focus may potentially have more ST damage than the spec with Blade Flurry.
    Last edited by Smaxy; 2016-04-25 at 12:43 AM.
    H Tichondrius - V I S C E R A L

  18. #2398
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaxy View Post
    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that giving the spec with Blade Flurry also top ST is not a very good balancing choice (although after seeing how they left Arms Warrior in early HFC you never know what Blizzard will do lol).
    Never count out blizzard when it comes to going full retard lol.

  19. #2399
    Banned Cebel's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Arkansas, United States
    Posts
    2,058
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    It might hurt a few pure classes here and there if you're racing for server firsts and stuff but lets face it you're gona end up maxing all 3 specs regardless. Expansion cycles are long as fuck.
    Why hurt anyone? Like I said, they're preaching accessibility, yet their punishing and restricting players.

  20. #2400
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    Why hurt anyone? Like I said, they're preaching accessibility, yet their punishing and restricting players.
    Its part of a bigger problem with WoW where they time-gate content to artificially inflate content and drag these things out like legendary item chains so you keep subbed and paying. And weekly raid/dungeon lock outs are also weird when you really think about it considering you're actively paying to play the game.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •