[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Wrecktangle]

@Wrecktangle: If you thought Tidus was a whiny brat, wait till you see squall (FF-VIII).....

Granted it's been an exorbitant amount of time since I played FF8 (for some reason my disc 1 is missing?), I remember actually liking Squall. I even had a Griever necklace Haha, oh man the times.

I actually never finished FFX in its original form (got to the weird boss with 3 platforms and was several underdeveloped) and couldn't kill him. Sold the game after that. I think I was 14 when I played it; think it released in my the summer going into sophomore year.

I bought the HD remaster edition, did a full playthrough, found the game much easier this time, and remembered why I didn't own the game before, because for a FF title, it just wasn't anything special.

This is grossly OT, and sorry for going into it, but I've really found myself calling the tales of series my favorite series lately. Even if half their games are mediocre, they're fun and the characters are always a blast to use. No wait I lied, the Persona series might actually be my favorite. Very tough call.

[SodiumChloride]

The only thing that came to mind for me on this was:

You can fight the boss. You can use potions, ethers, special attacks. Whittle its hitpoints down, manage to execute your moves properly, and eventually finish him off and win.

Or you can just throw a phoenix down on the stupid Ghost Train and be done with it.

That "trick" for FF 6 always amused me.

Cheesing have always been a part of JRPGs. The most obvious "trick" is to just grind random encounters until you out level the boss.

With the realtime combat of ARPGs like Demon/Dark Souls and Bloodborne your options widen.

"Git gud" by dodging and learning the timing of boss attacks, cheese with gear and weapon enchantments like bolt paper (requires knowledge of the bosses attack type and weakness if any) or just do the age old trick of grinding levels until you have enough of an edge to beat it.

RPGs have always been about choice - in contrast to say Mario or Contra where it's "git gud" or give up.

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Yes, but at the same time he simply wanted to be left alone for the most part. I think most people would probably end up frustrated if they were in the presence of Rinoa and Selphie though...if anyone was annoying in FF8 it was those two as far as I'm concerned.

To be frank, I notice English VAs can't do the genki girl characters very well. They just end up annoying for some reason.

Another example is Vanille (FFXIII).

[SodiumChloride]

If the choice is between, "Do something challenging" or "Just trample it and get free loot because you cheesed it" then it's not really going to be a choice at all in an MMO.

Highly granular difficulty that varies from the extremes of "pushover" to "impossible" is something that works very well in single-player games, but not so much for multiplauer.

"Trampling it" isn't free. You pay for it in time and resources.

Bolt paper cost souls to buy. Gear has to be acquired (and upgraded; again souls).

You are trading souls you can use to level up for those.

Ultimately you are trading time and energy grinding souls for those.

If you are farming something ... then it come down to profit margin, "git gud" and skip the cost to cheese will give you more bang for your buck.

[SodiumChloride]

Again, this won't BE an option in an MMO. If you can cheese it and win, everyone will expect you to do that. It's why things like this don't exist in MMOs in the first place, it's just not a terribly good fit.

They DO work very well in single player RPGs, as do most of the ideas that you have. (Which really begs the question of why you don't just play DS/BB/etc!)

Except it kind of does ... you can cheese with gear.

Anyway, back to the topic on hand, Deep Dungeons.

They can be soloed ... so having the option to cheese isn't an issue. You don't have to group. If anyone is giving you beef, about being "sub-optimal", you can just tell them to fuck off.

If they add a Souls like bell system ... grouping will be purely optional. It's your choice to summon a random player to help. It's their choice to accept the summon to help someone. Both parties know exactly what they are getting into and if they don't like it, they can just don't do it.

[Wrecktangle]

So I just read up on this Deep Dungeon stuff everyone is talking about and I'm curious. How exactly is this supposed to be fun or balanced?

Because of the combat system it's literally just going to be more instanced solo hunts (or 4p group). If I go in a DRG, the enemy/ies I face have to be kill-able without me dying (no defensives/healing). That leaves telegraphs as the only mechanic.

I see it mentioned traps or whatever, but they're RNG and have possible detractors? So let's say that I go into a floor of the DD. This monster is mathematically impossible for me to kill solo unless I get the buff? So if I don't get the buff I have to just leave.

If it's not impossible and the buff just merely helps then why is it even there? On the contrary if I get a debuff, and now it is impossible to kill it, that's not fun either.

What about casters? They just cast spells and kill things from afar? If these enemies are like endurance trial, lack of mobility/CC/defensives in the combat engine make that a very awkward endeavor.

I'm cool with it not being gear influenced (but don't see the why honestly), etc; but I genuinely fail to see how this content can be fun (i.e. anything different than just killing normal mobs anywhere else)? I like that this looks to be laying the groundwork for procedurally generated content though.

Naturally they haven't released any details on it so let's speculate on it. How can this be fun or balanced (i.e. what if you're a tank/healer going in solo)?

[Kazgrel]

For today's entry in the Months/Years Behind category:

Finally sat down and took the time to unlock Crystal Tower, obviously for the purpose of aether oil acquisition. I now remember why I didn't do this in the 3ish weeks prior to HW launch that I had left after dinging 50; having to wait for the stupid FATEs to spawn. As much as I hate the RNG crystal farming (for relic and now anima weapons), having to wait for specific FATEs to spawn is just...yuck. 3 out of the 4 weren't bad; one spawned as I was approaching it, while others took all of 5 mins. The one in Om'gorro Mines (Outer La Noscea, I forget the spelling, Kobold area) had me wait 45 mins for it to finally spawn.

CT and it's side story were kinda cool, though. I had wondered where Nero had wandered off to after Praetorium.

[Remilia]

Or you can just throw a phoenix down on the stupid Ghost Train and be done with it.

That "trick" for FF 6 always amused me.

What. No. You suplex, then phoenix it.

[Granyala]

Yup Kazela, waiting for specific FATES to pop is one of the worst things FF-XIV has to offer.

[Time Sage]

Eh, Squall never really came across as 'whiny' to me. He was more of a loner than anything else. Tidus was far worse - especially with that awkward laughing scene...

You mean the scene where Yuna and Tidus are forcing themselves to laugh when neither are actually happy at all because Spira is a shitty place where death is always on the horizon, thus creating a scene where they fake laugh so much their friends think they've gone crazy and the two of them actually burst into real laughter because of how much the ridiculousness of it cheered them up? That scene?

[Graeham]

You mean the scene where Yuna and Tidus are forcing themselves to laugh when neither are actually happy at all because Spira is a shitty place where death is always on the horizon, thus creating a scene where they fake laugh so much their friends think they've gone crazy and the two of them actually burst into real laughter because of how much the ridiculousness of it cheered them up? That scene?

Yes, the scene where Tidus managed to come across as even more annoying and grating than he usually did. Don't get me wrong, I liked FFX but Tidus fit the 'bratty' trope quite well. I actually cheered at the ending of the game. It's a shame they went back on it with FFX-2.

[Granyala]

FFX-2 .. now there is one nightmare of a game. >.<

[Lathais]

So I just read up on this Deep Dungeon stuff everyone is talking about and I'm curious. How exactly is this supposed to be fun or balanced?

Because of the combat system it's literally just going to be more instanced solo hunts (or 4p group). If I go in a DRG, the enemy/ies I face have to be kill-able without me dying (no defensives/healing). That leaves telegraphs as the only mechanic.

I see it mentioned traps or whatever, but they're RNG and have possible detractors? So let's say that I go into a floor of the DD. This monster is mathematically impossible for me to kill solo unless I get the buff? So if I don't get the buff I have to just leave.

If it's not impossible and the buff just merely helps then why is it even there? On the contrary if I get a debuff, and now it is impossible to kill it, that's not fun either.

What about casters? They just cast spells and kill things from afar? If these enemies are like endurance trial, lack of mobility/CC/defensives in the combat engine make that a very awkward endeavor.

I'm cool with it not being gear influenced (but don't see the why honestly), etc; but I genuinely fail to see how this content can be fun (i.e. anything different than just killing normal mobs anywhere else)? I like that this looks to be laying the groundwork for procedurally generated content though.

Naturally they haven't released any details on it so let's speculate on it. How can this be fun or balanced (i.e. what if you're a tank/healer going in solo)?

Chocobos/Companions. Obviously, Chocobos need to be improved in order to be able to actually hold threat, but aren't there more companions on the way around the same time? So you'll be able to use companions to fill in your gaps.

[SodiumChloride]

I...don't know, really.

I'm all for solo content in MMOs, but trying to make a "challenge" out of it always just seems like folly to me. As you touched on, the games just don't lend themselves well to it, especially one with a combat engine like FFXIV.

That said, things like Brawlers Guild and Proving Grounds in WoW actually provided a fair challenge to many players. So I suppose the potential is there. It won't be a significant challenge to the best players, but I suppose everyone is used to that.

They are having gear specific to the Deep Dungeons - i.e. gear that works only for it; only useful for glamour outside it - though, so they can probably patch up any class weaknesses with that without affecting the rest of the game.

So it's possible it will be more "balanced" than Brawler's Guild in the sense that there won't be a class at a severe disadvantage.

Don't think they are going for an "arcade" type of challenge though - i.e. git gud or quit - at least I hope not.

[Zathrendar]

Well that's the problem.
In order to not run out of TP you need to sparely use the Cone AoE and that makes you have to fight for Aggro.
Though even with the single target combo I drain my TP. This stupid jobs resource cost just isn't balanced properly.

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Well of course I can. After all SE makes me read his thoughts.

Perhaps, but we all talk to ourselves in that way. Tidus is an 'extrovert', by which I mean he whines at other people's expense, mostly. Zidane, Tidus and Vahn (damn you, for displacing Basch!) have to be the worst FF main characters in the series's history, which is funny since they all correspond to favourite ones of mine. I always found Squall to be the most relatable of the lot.

[SodiumChloride]

So I just read up on this Deep Dungeon stuff everyone is talking about and I'm curious. How exactly is this supposed to be fun or balanced?

Because of the combat system it's literally just going to be more instanced solo hunts (or 4p group). If I go in a DRG, the enemy/ies I face have to be kill-able without me dying (no defensives/healing). That leaves telegraphs as the only mechanic.

I see it mentioned traps or whatever, but they're RNG and have possible detractors? So let's say that I go into a floor of the DD. This monster is mathematically impossible for me to kill solo unless I get the buff? So if I don't get the buff I have to just leave.

If it's not impossible and the buff just merely helps then why is it even there? On the contrary if I get a debuff, and now it is impossible to kill it, that's not fun either.

What about casters? They just cast spells and kill things from afar? If these enemies are like endurance trial, lack of mobility/CC/defensives in the combat engine make that a very awkward endeavor.

I'm cool with it not being gear influenced (but don't see the why honestly), etc; but I genuinely fail to see how this content can be fun (i.e. anything different than just killing normal mobs anywhere else)? I like that this looks to be laying the groundwork for procedurally generated content though.

Naturally they haven't released any details on it so let's speculate on it. How can this be fun or balanced (i.e. what if you're a tank/healer going in solo)?

The simplest solution is to just have gear to compensate for class weaknesses.

Take too much damage as a caster? There is Deep Dungeon gear restricted to healing/DPS classes to fix that.

[Edge-]

FFX-2 .. now there is one nightmare of a game. >.<

WHOA NOW. Dress based job system? Fanservice cast? J-pop? CHECK, CHECK, AND FUCKING CHECK! BEST GAME.

[Aruhen]

FFX-2 had a really fun combat system. I'd even go as far as to say that it's the best in the series.

Also I love your avatar Edge-. Sooyoung <3.

[SodiumChloride]

FFX-2 had a really fun combat system. Probably the best I'd say actually.

Couldn't bring myself to play it.

So much recycled assets from FFX. The tone shift is jarring - I mean WTF, Jpop?

Love the opening theme though,

[Granyala]

WHOA NOW. Dress based job system? Fanservice cast? J-pop? CHECK, CHECK, AND FUCKING CHECK! BEST GAME.

I had to exercise real self restraint to not barf onto my keyboard emulating that one.

The opening theme SC linked was pretty much the only redeeming quality.

And Yunie being totally hot. .... the forbidden kind of hot after you played FF-X and saw her previous personality.

[Aruhen]

The tone shift isn't out of place at all. Yuna was always doing what was expecting of her up until X-2. She was quiet and reserved because she knew what her fate was going to be. Tidus let her open a bit throughout the journey in X. In X-2 with Sin gone she decided to take her life into her own hands and do whatever she wanted to do.

Of course there's still personal preferences but it fit perfectly fine.