[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

I can see them leaving at least the 2 piece bonus as it is and forcing us into the fire of justice talent. The reasons could be that we did ask for at least one proc and some kind of additional control over how we can use our proccs (read engaging gameplay). Oh and would be an easy way out for them.
Don´t understand me wrong I would really like to see the set bonus in our game play but please as baseline just like the procc itself and should that be deemed to good for us, the stack mechanic build into the procc.

What I find interesting currently on live is that even with 1:30 straight wings we can´t pull even to other classes on a 2 minute fight. Keep that in mind and remember blizz telling us that we will be fine in the burst niche.

[Yardu]

1. I dont think you can stack blessings of might to someone, only 1 per person. Example 1 retri in a 5man dungeon can give blessing of might to himself and the other 2 dpsers. 2 retris in a 5 man dungeon 1 retri can give gbom to all 3 dpsers and the other can give the other blessings. In this case i guess the one that gave the gboms will be higher at dps meters.

2. I am not sure where you are referring but if you are refering to the talent seal of light level 90 row, its movement speed buff.

3. We will see , damage wise nothing is certain yet.

Unfortunately I dont have alpha and the above is what I have understood so far .

Hope these helped.

Thanks a lot for the reply.

As for the 20% attack speed question I was referring to:

Zeal: An instant strike that causes 100% Physical damage
Retribution
and grants 1 Holy Power
Grants Zeal, increasing your attack speed by 20% and causes Zeal to chain to an additional nearby target per stack.
Replaces Crusader Strike.

unless that was removed or something.

[Deleted]

So....What shall we do if the raid leader wants to save BR for later and dont res dead player with Might?

Yep, this just makes the greater blessing system even more farcical than it already is.

[Deleted]

I can see them leaving at least the 2 piece bonus as it is and forcing us into the fire of justice talent. The reasons could be that we did ask for at least one proc and some kind of additional control over how we can use our proccs (read engaging gameplay). Oh and would be an easy way out for them.
Don´t understand me wrong I would really like to see the set bonus in our game play but please as baseline just like the procc itself and should that be deemed to good for us, the stack mechanic build into the procc.

What I find interesting currently on live is that even with 1:30 straight wings we can´t pull even to other classes on a 2 minute fight. Keep that in mind and remember blizz telling us that we will be fine in the burst niche.

That is a peculiar thing to say. Yes, other classes have bigger burst, but i always found that they couldnt keep up after their CD's ran out and i still had more wings. Especially during hero when you pop 2 back to back with the 4 set benefiting from hero twice.
I guess this is all relative. I tend to go for mastery with warforged mythic weapon because my raid wasn't high dps enough to make seraphim worth it. In a 2 minute fight with seraphim, you need the ring to be delayed a bit (wich other classes may have issue with). If the fight last say 2m 30s, then surely you top the meters. Well bar an arcane mage perhaps. They need to be luckier than you with procs though.

[Vpuh]

Yeah, I dun goofed. Well then, triple 50% wings and Justicar's Vengeance just the second we peak 60% increased damage. Sounds right.

Wings 35% now and i think it will be nerfed to 20% till release.

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Yep, this just makes the greater blessing system even more farcical than it already is.

Imagine the situation: save player with Might or let him die for Retribution buff.

[Deleted]

It was not a complaint that I can´t top meters I was just pointing out that even with 75% up-time we are not exceptional. Pick any other class and hand them this up time.
My point is that on paper our set bonus looks ridicules op but in practice not so much. When our set bonus became known many players in my old guild predicted the "Age of Ret: Total Dominance" until they received an explanation what it actually provides us in truth. I think the blizz though along the same lines...
Different but similar game with Ring and seraphim, on paper it looks like pure gold but as soon as you have a closer look you notice it´s just fool´s gold.

The same is true when we look at legion ret:
- 15 or whatever % of dmg we don´t have to bring looks good for fights with melee downtime ->truth is the range has to be alive to do the dmg and we can´t recast it apparently.
- Justicars Vengance hits like a truck -> Pesky little condition is the target has to be stunned
- strong finishers thanks to mastery-> still AoE crippled, quick Target switch impossible

I do have a feeling that everything we get has a big "but(t)" attached. Bigger than some other classes even the destro lock looks more done a "round" than ret and this one was the last specc to be released

[Deleted]

Sorry for the stupid question, i was trying to reread some pages but I'm still not sure.

What would be the bst choices for the 75 and 100 talents? Can't make much sense of them. Mainly for solo play or 5 mans. I just can't make any sense of them.

Also for level 60 assuming I don't want to be a hammerdin, am I right to assume that Blade of Wrath is much weaker but generates HP faster? If so is that a better choice? Or do we have enough HP generation as it is so triple damage is better.

[Deleted]

zeal would have a much better identity if it did more than cleave our weakest hopo builder. it could be a gameplay style that cleaves our ST damage:

"casting templars verdict, (or JV, or holy wrath) on a target affected by Zeal also hits all other targets affects by your zeal for x% of the initial hit."

so you'd spread zeal to 3 targets (reduced from 4 ideally; tuning DS, consecrate, [and DH] to 4+ efficiency) meaning it would work like the love-child of locks' havoc and warriors' sweeping strikes, but more awesome because paladins are the best class in the game. competition could come in the form of single-target-only censure (replacing fires) and then - if this cancerous mastery stays - greater judgement at ~8 targets for full on aoe.

get rid of Fires. make DP baseline. then of course you need to fix T60, which is also boring and confuses our stat priority somewhat.

[Deleted]

It was not a complaint that I can´t top meters I was just pointing out that even with 75% up-time we are not exceptional. Pick any other class and hand them this up time.
My point is that on paper our set bonus looks ridicules op but in practice not so much. When our set bonus became known many players in my old guild predicted the "Age of Ret: Total Dominance" until they received an explanation what it actually provides us in truth. I think the blizz though along the same lines...
Different but similar game with Ring and seraphim, on paper it looks like pure gold but as soon as you have a closer look you notice it´s just fool´s gold.

The same is true when we look at legion ret:
- 15 or whatever % of dmg we don´t have to bring looks good for fights with melee downtime ->truth is the range has to be alive to do the dmg and we can´t recast it apparently.
- Justicars Vengance hits like a truck -> Pesky little condition is the target has to be stunned
- strong finishers thanks to mastery-> still AoE crippled, quick Target switch impossible

I do have a feeling that everything we get has a big "but(t)" attached. Bigger than some other classes even the destro lock looks more done a "round" than ret and this one was the last specc to be released

I agree. Then again, we aren't the only one. Look at rogues/shamans/ferals. The reason they stay competitive right now is purely because of Soul Cap. Same goes for mage with PoF/DSI (well also bonus sets). But yeah, the general idea is that the bonuses or trinkets we got in HFC are swag as fuck for many classes and leaving them out will feel meh not only for us.
On a bright side, we can stack LoV stacks faster with prepatch and CS charges

As for Legion design I agree again, on paper it seems strong but the power is gated by many conditions we have to fill.

[Deleted]

Imagine the situation: save player with Might or let him die for Retribution buff.

It's not like I have any sway over that outcome; I can't save them.

[Deleted]

It's not like I have any sway over that outcome; I can't save them.

you could LoH him and die yourself shortly after.

[Yardu]

Speaking of that buff. Does it stack? If the boss is enraging at 1-2%, starts casting a one shot and I bubble while my 20man raid dies, do I suddenly get 10x my damage so that I can burst and finish the boss off? I feel like that's what they were going for tbh and played a factor in removing the 50% damage reduction from divine shield.

[Deleted]

you could LoH him and die yourself shortly after.

If I used LoH on people everytime their health dropped low, I'd not only offend team healer but would need the ability to have a 30 second cooldown, not ten minutes.

[Yardu]

If I used LoH on people everytime their health dropped low, I'd not only offend team healer but would need the ability to have a 30 second cooldown, not ten minutes.

So if you're in an Archimonde group for example and one guy is at half health then people start breaking chains rapidly, you're not going to save that guy from dying?

[Deleted]

If I used LoH on people everytime their health dropped low, I'd not only offend team healer but would need the ability to have a 30 second cooldown, not ten minutes.

never said it is a good tool but our only chance we have to keep all 3 mights going. Brings me back to the good-on-paper argument. Holy Wrath looks better (not as bad as the rest?) every time I think about our talents...

[Deleted]

So if you're in an Archimonde group for example and one guy is at half health then people start breaking chains rapidly, you're not going to save that guy from dying?

Doesn't apply in Mythic. I have used LoH on occasions, but in the vast majority of instances, you have no way of knowing if someone is in trouble as a DPS with your one use per fight heal.

[Ulthane]

It's not like I have any sway over that outcome; I can't save them.

Sad day : (

[Deleted]

Doesn't apply in Mythic. I have used LoH on occasions, but in the vast majority of instances, you have no way of knowing if someone is in trouble as a DPS with your one use per fight heal.

Purgatory/Cauterize/Death Death are incredibly helpful in finding your LoH target. Trained myself to be faster than our heals when one of these pops up unexpected. Anyway those are just exceptions but will help me to determine who will receive my might since I can do at least something and allow me the illusion of control.
Blue pill always!

[AlmightyGaudrik]

Saying Ret paladin utility is healing in raids is like saying WHY THE HELL ARE YOU EVEN HERE? It costs you globals to heal people and in DPS terms that comes at a cost of DAMAGE. It would be one thing if it were like AG/NV but it's not.

ffs if you want to heal go play holy. I'm here to deal damage not play support, at this rate they should just take away "Damage Dealer" from ret's description and put SUPPORT.

I can count on ONE hand how many times I've used LOH (on other people) this tier 13/13 mythic. If someone in your raid dies its one of two things 1) They faild and died 2) Healers fail.

[Reghame]

Doesn't apply in Mythic. I have used LoH on occasions, but in the vast majority of instances, you have no way of knowing if someone is in trouble as a DPS with your one use per fight heal.

Good thing the new Word of Glory will save all of your DPS then huh :P

As for the BoM thing, ya not being able to rebuff it is actually terrible. i actually like the fact that you can min max the use of BoM in combat for more damage, just adds more mastery for the spec in where it had basically none in the past really. As long as our damage is not reduced for the benefit that we can switch it i would love this as a little bonus.
And for those nay sayers about the retribution perk being part of our overall DPS, there ya go in that post. Its a flat bonus stop crying about it. If its too much of a problem it CAN be nerfed and even removed. its just to add more flavor to the spec that says I AM RETRIBUTION.

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Saying Ret paladin utility is healing in raids is like saying WHY THE HELL ARE YOU EVEN HERE? It costs you globals to heal people and in DPS terms that comes at a cost of DAMAGE. It would be one thing if it were like AG/NV but it's not.

ffs if you want to heal go play holy. I'm here to deal damage not play support, at this rate they should just take away "Damage Dealer" from ret's description and put SUPPORT.

I can count on ONE hand how many times I've used LOH (on other people) this tier 13/13 mythic. If someone in your raid dies its one of two things 1) They faild and died 2) Healers fail.

sometimes having heals as utility gives you raidspots, even more so if its good healing. Remember ra-den? healing is always a subject for question in utility because only specific types of healing can be actually useful. our old heals as ret are actually trash because its all single big heals which can be easily negated. AOE healers and even long term HoT heals are very useful as utility. at the same time you cannot lose too much dps to do said heals, there needs to be a balance.

As for ret's healing on alpha, Word of Glory is perfect as it stands. We lose 6-12 holy power a fight if we spec and force ourselves to use it but this healing is basically as strong as a healer cooldown for it when used back to back. It is strong and has a appropriate cost.

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BTW going to add this, if you never wanted to use healing spells or utility and only damage...
why did you pick a paladin? paladins in EVERY SINGLE video game are typically that strong stalwart vaungaurd who likes to defend and protect people. This also means they aid their allies in battle.
Picking a paladin and saying i dont want to use support tools is like saying i want to play a mage but i want to swing my sword. thats just stupid.