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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hav0kk View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We wanted to let you know that we’ve been closely following the Nostalrius discussion and we appreciate your constructive thoughts and suggestions.

    Our silence on this subject definitely doesn’t reflect our level of engagement and passion around this topic. We hear you. Many of us across Blizzard and the WoW Dev team have been passionate players ever since classic WoW. In fact, I personally work at Blizzard because of my love for classic WoW.

    We have been discussing classic servers for years - it’s a topic every BlizzCon - and especially over the past few weeks. From active internal team discussions to after-hours meetings with leadership, this subject has been highly debated. Some of our current thoughts:

    Why not just let Nostalrius continue the way it was? The honest answer is, failure to protect against intellectual property infringement would damage Blizzard’s rights. This applies to anything that uses WoW’s IP, including unofficial servers. And while we’ve looked into the possibility – there is not a clear legal path to protect Blizzard’s IP and grant an operating license to a pirate server.

    We explored options for developing classic servers and none could be executed without great difficulty. If we could push a button and all of this would be created, we would. However, there are tremendous operational challenges to integrating classic servers, not to mention the ongoing support of multiple live versions for every aspect of WoW.

    So what can we do to capture that nostalgia of when WoW first launched? Over the years we have talked about a “pristine realm”. In essence that would turn off all levelling acceleration including character transfers, heirloom gear, character boosts, Recruit-A-Friend bonuses, WoW Token, and access to cross realm zones, as well as group finder. We aren't sure whether this version of a clean slate is something that would appeal to the community and it’s still an open topic of discussion.

    One other note - we’ve recently been in contact with some of the folks who operated Nostalrius. They obviously care deeply about the game, and we look forward to more conversations with them in the coming weeks.

    You, the Blizzard community, are the most dedicated, passionate players out there. We thank you for your constructive thoughts and suggestions. We are listening.

    J. Allen Brack
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...84206#new-post

    It's ironic then, that the very same person that said: You think you do, but you Don't. is now posting a topic, in the official Forums about vanilla realms?

    Listen to me, J. Allen Brack

    Please do not confuse our dissatisfaction with how retail currently is with our love for classic WoW. This is important. We all want the retail version of the game to be great and enjoyable, the best it can be. If you want to take a look at the philosophy Blizzard built their games around 2005 and try to improve the retail version, then that is great.

    But please, do not think that our love for classic WoW is a temporary thing because we currently dislike the retail version. The two are over ten years apart. They are completely different games. We want to play classic WoW, that is our only request. You've said that you would not provide it for us, so out of love for the game and the World of Warcraft community, some people have decided over the years to provide this game for us despite the hardships that come along with it.

    There have been classic servers since forever, it's something that provides content almost indefinitely. This is mostly because classic servers were all about the community and the player driven content. If you release classic progression servers, there will definitely be content for years. Just have a talk with the devs at Nostalrius. The server had been up for over a year and we had not even started AQ war preparation. And the great thing about classic WoW is the fact that, even if you do complete all content - there is still a whole lot of things to do, since it's an open world with thousands of people in it.

    The demand for these servers are unbelievable and we are all waiting to sell our houses and livers so that we can finally play on them.

    The Vanilla communtiy has poked a lot of fun at Blizzard over the years, since we have felt that we've been ignored since Blizzard started to abandon some of the philosophies that we believe made the game truly great. We all want Blizzard to do great and we all want to feel welcome. Now, since we have been silenced in the past many WoW players have no idea how large the vanilla community actually is and I think it's fair to say that Blizzard have forgotten too.

    Many people have been scared to 'split the community' by adding legacy servers, but the reality of the situation is this: we've been split ever since you abandoned the 2005 philosophies. But we've managed to do OK on our own, though many of us still subscribed to the retail game. Now, with Nostalrius shut down we just feel stepped on, thus the uproar lately.

    We are not trying to steal your profits. We are your fans too. We have been waiting for years to be able to play legacy servers provided by Blizzard.

    What we want is simple: Vanilla progressions servers, as they were back then. We don't want any modifications or 'improvements'. The only changes that are acceptable are stability and server capacity. Yes, some people might ask for X and Y to be changed - but that's nothing new. We had those few people on Nostalrius too. It's not difficult to say no and that this is will be servers as they were back then and nothing more.

    We just want to go home, we just want Vanilla.

    The whole, "You think you do, but you don't." argument still has validity.

    The pro-vanilla people are not at all unified in what you want, and definitely not as much as you think you are. Just about the only thing you are all in agreement on is your hatred for live, and hatred for Blizzard.

    There are a great many of you that when you get talking don't REALLY want vanilla back, they want vanilla principles in new content.

    Some truly do want to experience vanilla again, pre-changes.

    Some want to stay vanilla, some want BC, some want WotLK.

    Some of you actually like the idea of "pristine" servers.

    You are divided.

    ------------------------------------------

    The very start of your post says a lot.
    Listen to me, J. Allen Brack
    Very few of you care about each other, care about the company and what it would take, its a very selfish attitude. Its deplorable really.
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2016-04-26 at 03:58 PM.

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titebiere83 View Post
    But Blizzard isn'y offering what you want. Prestine servers are all they are curently thinking right now.
    Better to understand this sooner rather than later.

    Legacy will not happen anytime soon.
    They've opened themselves today for discussion. Give it time, as Blizzard will only close the subject when a middle ground will be achieved through both party. This was just the initial proposition; as they've stated themselves, they're very interested in the feedback we have to give.
    Google Diversity Memo
    Learn to use critical thinking: https://youtu.be/J5A5o9I7rnA

    Political left, right similarly motivated to avoid rival views
    [...] we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism)..

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom4u2 View Post
    In the past, they went for a direct, straight no. But this time, they opened up. The answer is "we want to find a possible ground that'll make as many as possible happy".
    I tend to think it's more of a "we haven't found a way that we can do this without either exerting technical effort/resources and/or a way to make bucketloads of cash off of it. Basically I'm inclined to take the glass half empty view. I can see how one opts for the half full train of thought, though.

    For clarification, I'm indifferent as to whether or not legacy/pristine/whatever servers were to exist. I'm simply pessimistic about the whole thing.

  4. #544
    Pristine servers won't give what people want, the game is super easy sub 100 and then at 100 the game would be the same as it is now essentially, so i think that idea is pointless.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  5. #545
    They should just hire the nostralius people. Personally I think vanilla wow was great for its time in comparison to other games but it would be horrible now. I think a lot of people would play it, see how awful it is and quit.

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    I tend to think it's more of a "we haven't found a way that we can do this without either exerting technical effort/resources and/or a way to make bucketloads of cash off of it. Basically I'm inclined to take the glass half empty view. I can see how one opts for the half full train of thought, though.

    For clarification, I'm indifferent as to whether or not legacy/pristine/whatever servers were to exist. I'm simply pessimistic about the whole thing.
    I've seen Blizzard too often in the past. This is not their usual way of thinking, nor their usual way of working. Legacy is creating a precedent - like Nostalrius did. I'm not saying we're going to get Legacy Servers - but even the idea of Pristine server, if iterated correctly along with the community, could be something incredibly powerful.
    Google Diversity Memo
    Learn to use critical thinking: https://youtu.be/J5A5o9I7rnA

    Political left, right similarly motivated to avoid rival views
    [...] we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism)..

  7. #547
    "People do it in their basement for free" If Blizzard was to release vanilla WoW servers, they would not release the 2004 client and say have at it. They would incorporate it into Bnet, they would have to modernize it to run without much hassle on modern OS, and they would probably try to integrate it into live WoW so you can just swap over to the vanilla realm at will. Now granted they are still more then capable of doing it, and definitely should, but its still not as simple as some people are making it out to be.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom4u2 View Post
    I've seen Blizzard too often in the past. This is not their usual way of thinking, nor their usual way of working. Legacy is creating a precedent - like Nostalrius did. I'm not saying we're going to get Legacy Servers - but even the idea of Pristine server, if iterated correctly along with the community, could be something incredibly powerful.
    Perhaps. Taking it ver batim, though...woohoo, let's make it take 5-10x longer to get to level cap, where we get to play Garrisonville still.

    I wouldn't be opposed to seeing if they elaborate further on the pristine server concept.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilist74 View Post
    They should just hire the nostralius people. Personally I think vanilla wow was great for its time in comparison to other games but it would be horrible now. I think a lot of people would play it, see how awful it is and quit.
    Let's spell it correctly - Roslantius

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Alienshroom View Post
    "People do it in their basement for free" If Blizzard was to release vanilla WoW servers, they would not release the 2004 client and say have at it. They would incorporate it into Bnet, they would have to modernize it to run without much hassle on modern OS, and they would probably try to integrate it into live WoW so you can just swap over to the vanilla realm at will. Now granted they are still more then capable of doing it, and definitely should, but its still not as simple as some people are making it out to be.
    Considering they still don't know how to do "appear offline" and it took them 2 years to add deckslots in Hearthstone anything like this is basically never going to happen.

  11. #551
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Pristine servers won't give what people want, the game is super easy sub 100 and then at 100 the game would be the same as it is now essentially, so i think that idea is pointless.
    yeah, the way I see it it looks like a gated community with people that stoped xp gain

    No word on the old world and talents, which play a HUGE part of this issue

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Perhaps. Taking it ver batim, though...woohoo, let's make it take 5-10x longer to get to level cap, where we get to play Garrisonville still.

    I wouldn't be opposed to seeing if they elaborate further on the pristine server concept.
    Agreed. Right now, the idea they have is very basic and honestly not really interesting. Something that would make a lot of people happy would be to literally remove Garrisons - or make it a city. All in all, as I've said, making a pristine server would probably be the equivalent of legacy servers. But if they're to keep iterating, I might go in favor for pristine servers. Who knows?
    Google Diversity Memo
    Learn to use critical thinking: https://youtu.be/J5A5o9I7rnA

    Political left, right similarly motivated to avoid rival views
    [...] we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism)..

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasblossom View Post
    Considering they still don't know how to do "appear offline" and it took them 2 years to add deckslots in Hearthstone anything like this is basically never going to happen.
    Not like they had design reasons for limiting slots and didn't give us anything new in that time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by SwedetasticGames View Post
    The issue with coding it on thier side as far as I have noticed is: Battle.NET Clint and ID support was added only AFTER thier rewamp of the code and packaging of said between Cata and Mists. Making Vanilla support it would literally require re-coding vanilla or converting it in its full using converters. Either of these would take a SHITTON of testing and optimizing and a pretty big part of the dev team.
    =>
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    They could integrate Diablo II and Starcraft, and those are even much more long past their selling days and don't bring in subscriptions.
    Your argument is rejected.
    I guess I should make a macro with this, considering how often this argument is used.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Problem is that no one advocating fiercely for legacy realms is interested in hearing about, much less thinking of, the fact that official legacy realms would require a god damn metric ton of work and nowhere near as easy as they want it to be when they quote Nostalrius hosting costs. And every time you try all you get is "Your argument is invalid"-type responses anyhow.
    No, the problem is that, while there is a lot of work to do, it's just exagerated to all hell and people advocating against legacy realms are putting their fingers in their ears and ignoring all the evidences that it's possible with rather limited resources.
    Last edited by Akka; 2016-04-26 at 04:00 PM.

  15. #555
    No pristine, no legacy... Fix the current game! They have to put their energy in current game, not the old one. Remove so many raid difficulties, remove LFR and enable it for older raids, make the leveling harder with scaling, leave group finder tool as it is, remove dungeon finder, force us to go to the instance...

    And hypers have to stop with all that... Its sad already...
    Last edited by Kauko; 2016-04-26 at 04:00 PM.

  16. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    No pristine, no legacy... FIX THE CURRENT GAME! Stop with all that... They have to put their energy in current game, not the old one.
    I am with you on that 100%. I raided MC and BWL and AQ enough for one lifetime, while I had fun back then... I wouldn't do it again.

    The irony of it all is that this "return to traditional mmorpgs" is the exact opposite of what an mmorpg is. Increasing a characters level and power through various means. Going BACK to level 60 and then staying at level 60 goes against that very fabric.

  17. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    I don't think the legacy server people trust Blizzard to come up with a better solution. I never played legacy but even I'd be suspicous that whatever they did would be watered down to the point of meaninglessness and quickly abandoned. That's what the "pristine server" non-solution would be.
    I guess you're right - but it's really hard to "win" if they don't trust Blizzard. Because that's who must be standing on the other side of the net. There are no alternative partners who can play that game with you, it has to be Blizzard.

    So I guess they're just angry, kicking and screaming due to the inevitability of the impossible situation. They know it's never going to happen on their terms.

    I'm actually pretty excited about the "pristine server" idea. But I do understand that the blue post is just floating a vague concept. Nevertheless, I'd like Blizzard to explore that avenue further, because it could serve as a very important addition to the people who are not fundamentalist purists and who are just looking for that experience of a "journey" again. I'd love that - I don't much care about "pure vanilla" though.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by SharkLazorz View Post
    It's funny how it's about "experience and journey" - but they goalposts are so absolutely narrow nothing else but a "pure vanilla" (I'm assuming you also have the exact patch version in mind) will do.

    That's pretty god damn extreme view. I'm very surprised anyone with that kind of view would have played on Nost either - because surely the homecrafted scripting taints the purity of that experience? Or is that OK? As long as it's nothing to do with Blizzard, it's OK and good - even if it's not "exactly" like it was back then?
    The point about asking exactly how Vanilla was, is not because Vanilla is considered "perfect", but because Vanilla "as is" is an accepted standard. Everyone has slightly different preferences - even among all the legacy-server fans, many would like THIS feature, but many wouldn't and would prefer THIS one, etc.
    "pure" Vanilla WoW is a compromise that is roughly acceptable to everyone in the legacy field, because it's "how WoW was". Once you start tweaking with it, it opens the can of worm of what is acceptable fix/improvement and what is devolution/ruining the game. Remember that such tweaking ARE in the end what gave us today's retail. People are wary of the slippery slope (and, considering retail WoW, they certainly have very good reasons to be).

    So to sum up :
    1) Exact replica of Vanilla WoW is the common medium all legacy fan can compromise, any change is liable to create big difference in opinions.
    2) If you start to change how Vanilla WoW was, there is no telling where the changes will end, so it might be better not to open the can of worms.

    As for why people accepted playing on Nost despite minute changes, it's simply because it's the best approximation available of what Vanilla was. THAT is also the reason why nearly everyone on PS would prefer a true Blizzard-made one, with TRUE scripts and EXACT replica of what Vanilla was. And THAT is also why there is such a fierce competition in the PS scene about "blizzlike" : because it's HARD to be really blizzlike, and that is what most people want.
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    I don't think the legacy server people trust Blizzard to come up with a better solution. I never played legacy but even I'd be suspicous that whatever they did would be watered down to the point of meaninglessness and quickly abandoned. That's what the "pristine server" non-solution would be.
    Also, this. A less wordy and more to-the-point sum up of 2).
    Last edited by Akka; 2016-04-26 at 04:10 PM.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Hav0kk View Post

    It's ironic then, that the very same person that said: You think you do, but you Don't. is now posting a topic, in the official Forums about vanilla realms?
    These kind of comments kind of confuse me. You and others who say things like this act as though people can't and aren't allowed to change their minds. "If they felt X 5 years/weeks/days ago, then they must STILL feel that way, and will continue as such until the end of time." I'm not trying to come off rude, but don't you see how that seems a bit preposterous? Shouldn't we as humans always be changing and evolving, physically as well as mentally?

    Perhaps the issue with Nostalrius opened Blizzard's mind about this subject, and showed them how much people "want legacy servers". "But J. Allen Brack and the rest of Blizzard must keep his same opinions FOREVER!!" I don't know, seems a bit ridiculous.

    Personally I doubt I would play a legacy server. It would be fun for a while, like having a dip cone from DQ, it's fun for a bit, brings back memories from times passed, but that's as far as it'd go.

    Which brings me to my next question, what would people do on legacy servers? No, seriously, I'm asking a legit question. Ok, so let's assume it takes you a few months to get to max level (obviously without leveling boosts and smoother quest hubs etc., leveling would be slower). Then you start gearing up from dungeons, and head into Molten Core. Alright, another few months of MC gear. Then head into Blackwing Lair. Another few months, let's conservatively assume we're about a year into this, perhaps shorter if you've got a good raid. Then start working on AQ for another few months. Let's say (again, conservatively) after about 18 months since you made your character, you're ready for the big one, NAXXRAMAS! This was very a difficult raid in classic. Let's say it takes your raid 6-8 months to actually clear to KT and down him. Alright, so we're between 20-22 months since you started, if you have a good raid, maybe even shorter! This is about the length of a normal expansion. Then what? What do you do next? Honest question, I'd like to know. Thanks!

  20. #560
    It's not going to happen. I've seen this sort of thing from companies before. This is "no" disguised as "maybe" to try and stop people from talking about it so it dies quietly.
    It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hardcore, as it had been in the past. -- Tom Chilton

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