Mafia 68: The West Wing

[Danner]

Danner was the GF and investigate immune was it? Because yeah that played a huge part in costing us the game. I guess we learn two things 1) Don't trust cops 2) Lynch people that go MIA, regardless of what they claim.

Seconded!

Also @Danner as Kryll said, this is only a game, if you get a read or something wrong, then just learn and adapt, don't take it badly. Same applies to @Dendrek. We all make mistakes in this game, sometimes we get reads very wrong. The point of losing them is to get better in the future ones. I mean I've also taken breaks but that was because I couldn't dedicate the time needed to play the game properly (and I was seriously mad after Blood Fox cost us a game.) The games are meant to be about lies and deception and seeing if you can catch people in them, but the most important factor is that it is a game. That's why I had an argument with Monkz, because the games arent about getting personal and tilting people for whatever reason, it's still meant to be a game in which we have some fun.

Yeah... the blow here is to my trust in my own mental faculties.
I get to be as abrasive as I ever want just because I know what I aren't thinking it wrong, or if I am it's because of missing parameters. Or stupid mistakes because I didn't think things through. They all happen. But I know I'm generally not totally off base. I believe in my own cleverness.

This was a massive failure, I wasn't even aware I made it until Dendrek caught it. If I trust Dendrek, and Dendrek says I am scum, then I am basically agreeing with being scum. It's such an incredibly simple premise. I should have caught that. I spend two hours per post I make in these games precisely because I catch those failures. It is not acceptable to me that I didn't catch that. As I said in the mafia thread - I'm getting dumberer. I'm getting old. And the wisdom score just ain't up to compensating. That's what's hurting. It doesn't matter if it's a game. If I can't believe in my own cleverness, that's a serious blow.

On the upside, it's good to know I wouldn't be apt at being a secret homicidal mass murder in real life. So there is that. But I'm going to have to work on this.

[Reticence]

@Dendrek: You're not bad. We all make (and made) mistakes. Sure, sometimes you get so sure of what's occurring that it clouds your vision, but I think the same can be said of all of us analytical types. We look for patterns to establish some order within the chaos, to the point where sometimes we see them where they don't exist. See me trying to rationalize Dem/Repub mafias.

At the end of the day, town was in a terrible position very early, and you were one of the people holding it together in the end. I considered telling you that I was also a Hider so that you could revise your two-scum-doctors theory, but I was really hoping to soak more kills.

Btw, I found it rather thematically appropriate that the First Couple spent a fair amount of time bickering with each other before they joined forces.

@Danner: I will say this. I did not trust you at all, but I was willing to save you for last because Dendrek did, at the cost of my own sanity whenever I started to doubt him. I have to admit that part of this was because of your overall absence, both in-game and in our D&D QT, but I kept that to myself because I didn't like the idea of using outside information inside the game. I also knew that if it came down to the three of us (Dendrek, you and myself), as long as you two weren't both scum I could force a stalemate in the worst-case scenario.

@Kryllian: I saw some comments from you in the QTs about how you weren't sure if you were being ignored. You were not. I actually really liked your analyses, and they went a long way to chipping away at my distrust of you. At the end of the day, though, I couldn't shake the feeling that you were going with the flow in the first half of the game, and that you were scum. I didn't have anything concrete to point at, though, so I largely left you alone because I had bigger problems (like persuading Dendrek to stop trying to kill me).

I remember you made a comment at one point about how you needed to know what people considered scum tells so that you could not do them. It's fair, but don't feel compelled to let it influence your playstyle. 1) People who are concerned about how they look tend to be scum. You're better off playing true to your own style than anything else. The best-hidden scum are the ones who are able to recreate their town play as if they didn't know what they actually know. 2) We don't know what your style is, so we default to generic tells to compensate.

[Robozerim]

Ah, Danner was scum. Grats on the scum win tho

No shit, Danner was scum. It was freaking obvious. I mean...I wasn't even "on his team", as we really were split onto two teams of four (even if it turns out we won together) and I figured that out. I have absolutely no idea why Dendrek trusted him at all.

[Kryllian]

[MENTION=534822]

@Kryllian: I saw some comments from you in the QTs about how you weren't sure if you were being ignored. You were not. I actually really liked your analyses, and they went a long way to chipping away at my distrust of you. At the end of the day, though, I couldn't shake the feeling that you were going with the flow in the first half of the game, and that you were scum. I didn't have anything concrete to point at, though, so I largely left you alone because I had bigger problems (like persuading Dendrek to stop trying to kill me).

I remember you made a comment at one point about how you needed to know what people considered scum tells so that you could not do them. It's fair, but don't feel compelled to let it influence your playstyle. 1) People who are concerned about how they look tend to be scum. You're better off playing true to your own style than anything else. The best-hidden scum are the ones who are able to recreate their town play as if they didn't know what they actually know. 2) We don't know what your style is, so we default to generic tells to compensate.

Thanks Ret. I was genuinely frustrated after I put out thoughts throughout the game and never had anyone really respond to agree or argue. It really hit me that last day when no one would even engage me to discuss anything after I spent my entire work break putting together the long charcter analysis. I still am not savvy enough to think of things like when I vote and how that will look. I'm an impulse player at this point. I vote when I'm comfy or it's convenient. I also tend to focus on the past days discussion rather than go too far back and analyze unless something triggers in my brain. So that might hurt me in the long run of more games.

[Robozerim]

Game was won by mafia partly because all those TPR's came out all at once, which allowed the mafias to focus purely on the tpr's instead of having to take risks and accidentally hitting each other.

[Arlee]

No shit, Danner was scum. It was freaking obvious. I mean...I wasn't even "on his team", as we really were split onto two teams of four (even if it turns out we won together) and I figured that out. I have absolutely no idea why Dendrek trusted him at all.

Yes well I was pretty sure you were scum! But yea, like I originally said Charlie as a bodyguard seemed weird... but I really wanted Danner to be town ><

Thanks Ret. I was genuinely frustrated after I put out thoughts throughout the game and never had anyone really respond to agree or argue. It really hit me that last day when no one would even engage me to discuss anything after I spent my entire work break putting together the long charcter analysis. I still am not savvy enough to think of things like when I vote and how that will look. I'm an impulse player at this point. I vote when I'm comfy or it's convenient. I also tend to focus on the past days discussion rather than go too far back and analyze unless something triggers in my brain. So that might hurt me in the long run of more games.

Rule 1 of the internet, if no one responds to you it means you are making too much sense and it's less exciting to talk sense on the internet

[Robozerim]

If a bodyguard claims in the first few days, and lives to day 9 without being killed by his ability when claimed TPR's are dropping like flies, there is no way he's actually a bodyguard. >.<

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Good Game Cruelle.

I was convinced that Dendrek was on the other scum team rather than Robo. That hurt us a few times looking back.

Nope! I bused my team hard! All except for Virothe, who Catta killed anyway.

[Reticence]

@Kryllian:

/nods. It's understandable to be frustrated by that. I probably would have engaged you more if I wasn't so preoccupied with other things.

So that might hurt me in the long run of more games.

Honestly, I'm not so sure. Not everyone benefits from the same processes, everyone's persona is a little different, and some people make a point to modify their play game by game. Graeham is a good example of this, which was part of my argument against him. You should also see the difference between my QT this game and my QT from several games ago.

Don't be afraid to take risks, but being comfortable is not a bad thing, either.

[Robozerim]

Blah. I mentioned fragmented team at one point and was on my way back to that theory by the end of the day.

Thanks for the game, Cruelle. It was great fun, and I love the West Wing. Much appreciated.

Yeah, I saw that and was surprised to see it suggested by somebody outside of the Mafia QT. I had actually not believed it, despite I think two of my team mates saying they thought it may be true, but by the end when we had so few townies left, I had such goodwill with the other team, seeing how we didn't hit each other at all in the gmae, that I was perfectly fine losing if they won instead.

[Danner]

But Robo, did you not get the same text as we did on N2?
Where Cruelle all but stated we were on friendly terms? O.o

[dupti]

To be fair Robo, Danner actually tried to kill you. (Fortunately we couldn't kill each other)

[Deleted]

(Fortunately we couldn't kill each other)

Not strictly true. I just made it very difficult for you to kill each other.

[Robozerim]

@Arlee:

You forced us to kill Kel instead of our intended Target of Strikered. Of course, Strikered died as well.

It seems we double tapped so freaking much this game. Our teams just thought too much alike.

[Danner]

I killed Robo because he seemed like the least likely other-mafia candidate by N8.
Kryllian, my better counterpart, agreed to it.
Wish I had thought about catta though. He was far less likely to be other mafia.

Either way I guess Robo did something right? But damned was it hard to read at some point.

[Robozerim]

To be fair Robo, Danner actually tried to kill you. (Fortunately we couldn't kill each other)

O_O

Oh....wow. Either I protected myself, or my passive ability to dodge a night action kicked in.

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Night 8....yikes. I was open that night. All hail my passive night action dodge!

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I had guessed that you went after Reticence and he had a vest or was a hider or something. That you went after me is terrifying!

[Dendrek]

If a bodyguard claims in the first few days, and lives to day 9 without being killed by his ability when claimed TPR's are dropping like flies, there is no way he's actually a bodyguard. >.<

I was protecting Danner and kills were missing. There's your answer. I probably shouldn't have protected him to properly test his claim, but if he was telling the truth and I let him die, I would have lost a huge resource and the one player who could keep me alive to the end of the game.

[Robozerim]

But Robo, did you not get the same text as we did on N2?
Where Cruelle all but stated we were on friendly terms? O.o

We did, though I figured it was simply an honour among thieves kind of thing. That and our team was entirely made up of Democrats, our name was based on being democrat, and I didn't actually check to see whether any of your dead were democrat or republican. >.<

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I was protecting Danner and kills were missing. There's your answer. I probably shouldn't have protected him to properly test his claim, but if he was telling the truth and I let him die, I would have lost a huge resource and the one player who could keep me alive to the end of the game.

So exactly what I suggested in the main thread.

According to Cruelle at one point in our thread...

If you protected him, it would only save him from NK's that were directed at him. He'd still have died from blocking kills. Honestly, Cruelle probably shouldn't have told us that. He only told us that on day 9, if I recall.

[Catta]

Can't say im not disappointed about Danner killing me - you douchebag!

Still - being a half-townie this game - I am pretty disappointed in how the town played this game. I also think that had I not killed Virothe he would have scooted by just like Robo. I was utterly sure both Kryl and Robo were scum and I think it was pretty obvious - that Kurenaii who was a townie manages to make himself look even more scummy is impressive and something I think he should take a look at.

[Robozerim]

So....we had multiple cases of hitting the same target, and we sent our thieves to the same person N1 followed by each other in N2. That's pretty funny.

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Can't say im not disappointed about Danner killing me - you douchebag!

Still - being a half-townie this game - I am pretty disappointed in how the town played this game. I also think that had I not killed Virothe he would have scooted by just like Robo. I was utterly sure both Kryl and Robo were scum and I think it was pretty obvious - that Kurenaii who was a townie manages to make himself look even more scummy is impressive and something I think he should take a look at.

By the end I was thinking you may have been playing for scum. I had to wonder if you actually believed Kurenai was scum or not, and kind of hoped you believed he wasn't. Honestly, I stopped believing he was after Dendrek (I think it was Dendrek) pointed out that literally nobody was defending him, or even saying they would rather go for somebody else. I kind of expected the lynch to go to Graeham that day, hence why I was busing him so hard the last few days. I figured he was a sinking ship even before Reticence revealed he was lying and others began to agree.

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Also, we found dupti pretty early on with our thief, too.

[Catta]

By the end I was thinking you may have been playing for scum. I had to wonder if you actually believed Kurenai was scum or not, and kind of hoped you believed he wasn't. Honestly, I stopped believing he was after Dendrek (I think it was Dendrek) pointed out that literally nobody was defending him, or even saying they would rather go for somebody else. I kind of expected the lynch to go to Graeham that day, hence why I was busing him so hard the last few days. I figured he was a sinking ship even before Reticence revealed he was lying and others began to agree.

Well, in the end I actually cared very little whether he was or not considering I didn't think I'd get killed *cough cough screw you danner* but I was still pretty darn certain he was scum.