Russian attack aircraft just flew within 30 feet of a U.S. Navy ship

[Azadina]

The were no invaders, Russian troops in Crimea were already there because that's where their bases were.

That is pretty poor logic. So any country that has US base in it, cannot be invaded by US soldiers because "they are already there".

[Hound Archon]

That is pretty poor logic. So any country that has US base in it, cannot be invaded by US soldiers because "they are already there".

I see your point, but to be fair, when people say "invasion" they usually mean "a major concerted logistics effort involving the movement of thousands of troops and numerous units of military hardware across a sovereign nation's border", not "fifty guys in uniform that walked out of a building across the street"...

[Azadina]

I see your point, but to be fair, when people say "invasion" they usually mean "a major concerted logistics effort involving the movement of thousands of troops and numerous units of military hardware across a sovereign nation's border", not "fifty guys in uniform that walked out of a building across the street"...

Sure, but why send thousands if you can invade an area with 50?

Also...It definitely wasn't just the guys from the base who happened to normally be there. You don't send your regular grunts to do an operation like that, you send special forces. You know, all the tagless and nameless guys who walked around with the latest fashion in stuff.

[caervek]

Sure, but why send thousands if you can invade an area with 50?

This is getting a bit OT now, but for reference they didn't send anyone, they were already there, and the weren't thousands either, the Russian forces were backing up the Crimean forces to ensure the Ukrainian forces didn't oppose them.

I'm not trying to be rude here but it seems you're not that familiar with the history of Crimea/Ukraine/Russia, but a quick explanation is that Crimea was a semi autonomous region of Ukraine that had it's own defense force, the reason it was semi-autonomous is because in 1995 Ukrainian forces annexed it and deposed its government (after people voted in a 1994 referendum for greater ties with Russia and dual nationality). Then in 2014 when Ukraine's government fell the Crimeans rose up to retake their republic, and Russia (which was in economic wasteland in the 90's) was able to stand behind them and look scary to prevent Ukraine from sending in the tanks again.

If you're interested the are a couple of threads on the Ukraine/Crimea/Russia situation:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-trade-boycott
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ts-rock-bottom

[Crispin]

Quick America, grab Cuba it's not an invasion!

[Ripster42]

Quick America, grab Cuba it's not an invasion!

Not so fast!

[Slant]

You are absolutely correct! People in Crimea and Donetsk decided Ukrainian government no longer serves their interests and had a full scale rebellion. But for some reason neither the US nor Europe is okay with that.

I am genuinely glad to see you understand what's actually going on.

There is a difference between people of a country changing their own gouvernment and an outside force changing the gouvernment. One is an internal revolution, the other is pretty much an invasion. If you can't see that, you've not understood what @May90 was talking about.

[Shalcker]

Because the country is not in a situation where it's neighbour is hellbent on keeping it on it's knee's, that beeing said, the current ukranian govt isnt ideal at all, but it doesnt have to be the same govt in 6 years.

Well, they aren't going to be magically transported to border someone else either... got to learn living with it; they did decent job at it before coup.

Your "current situation will be the same in a decade" argument is pretty shitty, Russia in 97' and 07' were in vastly different situations, even tho kate 90's were shit.

Who said "same"? Certainly not me.

If they get their shit together it can get better - they are certainly far enough down that it's possible to get better. But while they keep trying to use their neighbours as scapegoat for all their woes (rightfully or wrongly) they are robbing themselves of power to effect actual change for the better with their own hands. "No matter what we do Russia will destroy everything anyway, all critics are Russian agents/collaborators " ("got to rob Ukraine blind then escape while we can") is shitty attitude to have.

[Hound Archon]

There is a difference between people of a country changing their own gouvernment and an outside force changing the gouvernment. One is an internal revolution, the other is pretty much an invasion. If you can't see that, you've not understood what @May90 was talking about.

It was the case of a people of a country changing their own government. The outside force came afterwards.

[Slant]

It was the case of a people of a country changing their own government. The outside force came afterwards.

I'm not 100% sold on that. Could be. But a lot of it smells fishy to me.

[Crispin]

Well, they aren't going to be magically transported to border someone else either... got to learn living with it; they did decent job at it before coup.

Who said "same"? Certainly not me.

If they get their shit together it can get better - they are certainly far enough down that it's possible to get better. But while they keep trying to use their neighbours as scapegoat for all their woes (rightfully or wrongly) they are robbing themselves of power to effect actual change for the better with their own hands. "No matter what we do Russia will destroy everything anyway, all critics are Russian agents/collaborators " ("got to rob Ukraine blind then escape while we can") is shitty attitude to have.

Yet you're far too quick to pass judgement on Ukraine, Russias history is a good example of how change to the better does not happen overnight.

[Hound Archon]

I'm not 100% sold on that. Could be. But a lot of it smells fishy to me.

Of course it is fishy. This whole mess is a horrifying tangle of conflicting interests, conspiracy theories and different governments pulling strings to make other countries' politicians dance, and the only thing nobody can deny is that at the end of the day, a piece of land with people of it changed juristiction.

Which is why I look at the results.

Ukraine lost a stable, if corrupted, government and a piece of land and gained a new and unstable government which is just as corrupted. It also lost control of a couple of its regions. It is a loss for them, and kind of a dick move for Russia which jumped at the opportunity.

Crimea lost an unstable and openly hostile government, gained a stable one (that goes out of its way to please it) and succesfully obtained the autonomy it has been trying to get for the last 20 years with no luck until now. Only 6 people died in the process (as opposed to Donetsk, where ~9500 lost their lives). It's a huge win for them.

Russia got an autonomous region under its wing, no longer has to worry about its military bases or fleet basing rights on the Black sea and kissed goodbye to its political reputation for the next 50 years, if not more. I cannot say whether it is a gain or a loss.

[Independent voter]

Stalin moved Russians into Eastern Ukraine just for this, so Russia would always have a claim on Ukraine, always feel justified in intervening.

Also what started WWII in part was ethnic Germans put under foreign rule. Every time the foreign rulers would something bad to the ethnic Germans it would make the German newspapers and the German people would rage.

[Deleted]

Not so fast!

For a second I thought that url said freebacon.com lol.

[Ripster42]

For a second I thought that url said freebacon.com lol.

Since the link is a joke about paranoids, the source is irrelevant.

[Kellhound]

Neither is the Eurofighter though.




They carried on using the F-4F until 2013, that kind of implies they didn't hate them or they would have replaced them sooner.




If they didn't they would have given them to an ex-USSR ally like the Sukhoi's and the other MiGs not gone to the trouble to integrated them into their air force and kept them until 2004 (when they were given to Poland).

The MiG-29s were kept mainly because other NATO countries begged Germany to keep them for dissimilar combat training. They were considered by Germany to be useless for anything other than aggressor training and point defense of German air bases. As for being "integrated", they were banned from being deployed into combat zones because they were more a hindrance than an asset to NATO.

[May90]

Well, if you ignore all previous agreements and their checks and balances (which is purpose of Ukrainian impeachment law that was violated) the result can be expected to be worse situation then the one you started with.

That is exactly the case with Ukraine.

Worse or not, changing the government you dislike is the only way to hope to move forward. Look at Russia: the regime was the same from 1991 to 2016, and yet it didn't get anywhere, still essentially the world outcast. Ukrainians, at least, are trying something, so far unsuccessful, but still. Now that it makes a definitive stand on not being related to Russia any more and on moving towards EU, I think it actually has a long term chance to get somewhere. They just need to push a bit more and force their government to start doing reforms right now, rather than slack and keep saying, "Just 1 more year..."

You are absolutely correct! People in Crimea and Donetsk decided Ukrainian government no longer serves their interests and had a full scale rebellion. But for some reason neither the US nor Europe is okay with that.

I am genuinely glad to see you understand what's actually going on.

There is a difference between changing a country's government, and changing an alignment from one country to another. If Crimea became genuinely independent, not like Ossetia or Abkhazia, but really independent, and without those "green men" occupying the territory - I would fully support it, and, I believe, world community would as well.

Instead, it was a usual land grab, in Soviet style. Not even close to rebellion against one's government and replacing it with the one serving your interests better. If in Ukraine American army invaded Kiev, demoted the government and then made Ukraine into the US 51st state - then yes, your analogy would make sense.

They rebelled against the government of Ukraine. Their government.

They didn't rebell against the government of Ukraine, they rebelled against the state of Ukraine. Which, in itself, isn't bad. But they also rebelled FOR the state of Russia, and that is a different story entirely.

[Hound Archon]

They didn't rebell against the government of Ukraine, they rebelled against the state of Ukraine. Which, in itself, isn't bad. But they also rebelled FOR the state of Russia, and that is a different story entirely.

But why is independence a valid goal and repatriation is not?

[Slant]

But why is independence a valid goal and repatriation is not?

One is from within, the other is from without.

[May90]

But why is independence a valid goal and repatriation is not?

Both goals are valid. Repatriation, however, is much more tricky, especially when it is repatriation to the country with infamous history of land grabbing, that held half Europe a hostage merely 27 years ago. If they wanted to join, say, Poland (assuming they had the common border), you bet the world would look at this differently. Even then, not every Crimean would like to be a part of Poland; what do you do with those who don't, just spit on their opinion? Repatriation is a MUCH bigger event than internal change of the government or separation, it shouldn't be done this way.