Offical response from blizzard on legacy servers.

[Neteyes]

I'm not just talking about raids. As a matter of fact.. I'm mostly talking about the things other than raids. Dungeons, questing, maximizing gear. etc etc etc
I LIKED having to enchant/socket every new upgrade. I LIKED having to grind dungeons for raid upgrades for several months without them ever going obsolete. (No.. valor doesn't do that now. You literally do 2 dungeons and you have enough to sort your upgrade.)


The game simply doesn't put you to work anymore.. with anything. You steamroll through dungeons and you get instant rewards.


I personally think cataclysm got it right at first. They made you grind reps for enchants. You still needed to max your professions for the bonusses. You had to do pretty much all the levelling content to reach max level (without exp bonusses). Dungeons were challenging at first untill they nerfed them (RIP). They didn't really offer any consequent rewards anymore though so they did become obsolete after a while.

But then servers started to get empty because of the LFG tool and everyone just camped in the cities 24/7.
People started transferring off servers to find what they had lost. Only to find that other servers were no better.

But when you transfer you check which side is dominant.. Which got us the 1:0.01 server balances we have today.

The first patch of Cata was awesome. There were lots to do, awesome areas, the rep grind of course. And there were 3 very good (in my opinion) raids with fun and challenging bosses.

[rda]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the whole process behind WoW but is it not essentially a massive set of databases? From what I can see the client and server are fully compatible with the older databases. How difficult would it be, instead of essentially reinventing the wheel, to use the current infrastructure with the older databases?

There's both a big, evolving database and a couple million lines of code. As they add features, they are changing either or both. Ie, they added a new way to handle transmog in Legion, that very likely involved changes in both, the database likely got new tables, the code got some functions to work with these tables and present the results.

The vanilla code can't use the new database because the new database has a lot more tables and when you modify one, you sometimes have to modify others in sync, and because the new database doesn't have some of the tables (or has them with different columns or uses values with different semantics) that the old vanilla one had.

They can re-create the old database for vanilla code (although there might be some issues to resolve), the real problem is elsewhere - in the code that has to be a mix of the vanilla code (for vanilla features) and the current code (for fixes and integration with various services like bnet).

You are right that it's a case of desire within Blizzard rather than ability in that it is doable, just with a lot of effort. Whether or not it makes sense to do this, I don't know. I am kind of skeptical (and I don't think it's the right time to do this now when Legion is about to be released), but that's it, it might be worth it.

[Sansnom]

What fucking proof do you need? They make hundreds of millions of month. There's articles everywhere on the internet.



The funny thing is they're using the money from wow to make other games instead of making wow better. Why do you trust this company so much again?

Standard business practice. And a good one.

First. Developing new products cost money. During the development, the company is spending money with zero return. Someone needs to pay for this. Ideally, the company itself because it does not need to accept external investment demands.

Second. As a company, you would want more than one revenue stream and to diversify.

[Akka]

and yes they would need to hire tons of people (mabye 30-40 people to upkeep this server) as they would not want to divert people from legion...

That's just clownish. Come back to Earth, you're ridiculous.

[Evolixe]

I don't have Alpha access so I can't really comment. Though i'll make the counter argument that the Alpha population is just to small for any sense of community, world content, especially world quest bosses will be more fun with your guild mates and friends, do you not agree?

I wouldn't be so sure. Alpha is US+EU combined. And there's only 3 servers you can play on of which 2 are levelling/pve.
There's generally plenty of people around.

[Akka]

$15 a month, lets be generous and say 4million subscribers. then factor in realm xfers/faction changes etc.

you dont need to be a mathamagician to work out that they are making significant profits. the operating expenses can't be that big.

Dunno, the blind fanboys are arguing that adding a few servers (or even one) would have insanely high costs. Like this server even if full would drain money from Blizzard faster than a hole in the ground.

- - - Updated - - -

You are pretty misinformed. Warlocks are great in vanilla pve and warrior dps is very good too. More like I want to tank but I'm not a warrior?

It's the guy claiming Blizzard would need 40 people to tweak and run a single server. Of course he's uninformed.

[Evolixe]

That's just clownish. Come back to Earth, you're ridiculous.

That's not at all ridiculous. You need CS. You need devs. You need CM's.
CS would require the most manpower, Anywhere between 10 and 15 people probably. 5 on the phone, 8 in the game, 2 elsewhere. You have to account for the fact that 1 open vacancy needs to be filled by 1,5-2 people because it needs to run 6 days a week. And nobody permanently works 6 days a week at blizzard.
Not in CS anyway.

You're also not going to have only 1 server. They'll need more than that.
Even if its only because of the fact that US and EU will both at least need 1 each.
I suspect 2-3 servers in each region intially would be a smart move though. Go from there.

[Akka]

I don't really experience it that way on the Alpha tbh.
They just need to bring back the grinds.


Honestly.. I REALLY wish they'd roll back to the old gemming and enchanting model. As well as bonuses per profession.

Wait... you mean they are still using the catastrophe that is WoD profession in Legion ? 0_o

I thought they said they had a whole new team for professions. Does that mean they just did nothing, or that the changes of professions aren't on the alpha yet ?

[Borigrad]

I wouldn't be so sure. Alpha is US+EU combined. And there's only 3 servers you can play on of which 2 are levelling/pve.
There's generally plenty of people around.

I'll have to take your word for it then, if true it's unfortunate.

But from my own perspective I prefer the legion model, I don't mind a bit of grind, but this idea that months of grind is good for the game i vehemently disagree with. I did it in TBC and WotLK, it gets old really fast. I even did it in Vanilla, which was the grind to 60.

Edit: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...origrad/simple

I just want to post my own armory so you know i'm not blowing smoke up your ass, since you have yours linked. Full disclosure i didn't play Cata at all, so i can't talk with any authority on it, as my Armory will show.

[Evolixe]

Wait... you mean they are still using the catastrophe that is WoD profession in Legion ? 0_o

I thought they said they had a whole new team for professions. Does that mean they just did nothing, or that the changes of professions aren't on the alpha yet ?

Its mostly the way you obtain resources. I havnt checked it out completely though. I just know its not like it used to be.
I can't check it now because lo and behold.. alpha doesn't even work for me right now. Yay instant crashes.

[Pann]

There's both a big, evolving database and a couple million lines of code. As they add features, they are changing either or both. Ie, they added a new way to handle transmog in Legion, that very likely involved changes in both, the database likely got new tables, the code got some functions to work with these tables and present the results.

The vanilla code can't use the new database because the new database has a lot more tables and when you modify one, you sometimes have to modify others in sync, and because the new database doesn't have some of the tables (or has them with different columns or uses values with different semantics) that the old vanilla one had.

They can re-create the old database for vanilla code (although there might be some issues to resolve), the real problem is elsewhere - in the code that has to be a mix of the vanilla code (for vanilla features) and the current code (for fixes and integration with various services like bnet).

You are right that it's a case of desire within Blizzard rather than ability in that it is doable, just with a lot of effort. Whether or not it makes sense to do this, I don't know. I am kind of skeptical (and I don't think it's the right time to do this now when Legion is about to be released), but that's it, it might be worth it.

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. I am still not 100% convinced (I not for one minute saying that anything you've written is wrong) but you've shed a lot of light on the subject.

I do agree that it is the wrong time with Legion around the corner.

[Akka]

That's not at all ridiculous. You need CS. You need devs. You need CM's.
CS would require the most manpower, Anywhere between 10 and 15 people probably. 5 on the phone, 8 in the game, 2 elsewhere. You have to account for the fact that 1 open vacancy needs to be filled by 1,5-2 people because it needs to run 6 days a week. And nobody permanently works 6 days a week at blizzard.
Not in CS anyway.

You're also not going to have only 1 server. They'll need more than that.
Even if its only because of the fact that US and EU will both at least need 1 each.
I suspect 2-3 servers in each region intially would be a smart move though. Go from there.

Yes it's clownish and ridiculous. Blizzard has 170 servers online, do you think they have 6000 people just to run them ? That's more than the entire employee count of Blizzard - and that's with all the other divisions, the other games and the management.

The development doesn't require 10 people. It's not about creating a new game or patch, it's about making an one-time and easy (let me repeat again : they did it with Diablo II and Starcraft, which basically don't sell anymore, so it's not like it's the hardest and costier part) integration to B.net, and a longer but still finite update to the code so it works in today's environment. Once that's done, basically you can keep one or two dev to fix the bugs, but that's it - it's a frozen version after all, so no new major features or upgrade or whatever.
As for the rest of the staff, why do you need to hire ? They have tons of servers which are half-empty, they can just merge two, and switch the staff from one of them to the new server, and voilà !

There is costs in reorganizing and keeping two different version actives, but this guy trying to pretend the manpower required to keep a server running is on-par with developping a whole new game is plain retarded.

[Leyre]

hopefully blizz will make a vanilla server so all this motherfuckers will shut the fuck up about wanting a vanilla server

[-Gr-]

Honestly? I just don't get the point of the pristine realm. It's the same game, with the convenience removed; the very convenience that makes the same game bearable.

I can't see anyone playing it, other than out of curiosity. The problem is that it'd flunk, and Blizzard would potentially use that flunk as an argument that proves "vanilla realms don't work", when it'd do nothing of the kind.

The convenience you speak of is exactly the reason why the game is so Unbearable. Convenience is nice and all, but in a game where you're adventuring and overcoming obstacles, convenience is detrimental to something like WoW. I'm not talking about QoL changes, I'm talking about the actual effort vs reward. I can see tons of people playing a pristine server over what live has brought us. The games that are challenging are fun. Finally beating a boss you thought you'd never be able to kill is a great feeling. Now in live you basically have to get into a hardcore mythic raiding guild just to have that same feeling. I want to be able to go up to a rare and not be able to solo him and be forced to get help. That's what makes finally killing him meaningful. I want to be forced to find a group to do dungeons and know that I am with people that actually know what they are doing and won't go afk because of how long it took just to form the group.

I want to level again. Heirlooms have made it far too easy and you feel like you're gimping your group just because you chose not to use them. I want to feel that I completed an actual challenge, with people. All these old games we know and love are treasured because they simply made us angry and forced us to actually try for our rewards. Why do you think Dark souls is so loved? simply put, most games now don't have that challenge that brings you those feel good chemicals to the brain that they used to. There is actually an article about how Dark Souls is helping people with depression because it gives them something to focus completely on for that success, and when it happens, it is oh so savory.

Wow shouldn't be so easy just because so many people play it. It should have a level of difficulty that people can achieve but not on the first try. The social aspect is pretty moot. When I started playing, it was a pain just to get into a dungeon, but when I got into one, it gave me that feeling of reaching the top of a cliff I had been climbing.

TL;DR I am all for Pristine realms. People welcome a challenge.

[Pann]

That's not at all ridiculous. You need CS. You need devs. You need CM's.
CS would require the most manpower, Anywhere between 10 and 15 people probably. 5 on the phone, 8 in the game, 2 elsewhere. You have to account for the fact that 1 open vacancy needs to be filled by 1,5-2 people because it needs to run 6 days a week. And nobody permanently works 6 days a week at blizzard.
Not in CS anyway.

You're also not going to have only 1 server. They'll need more than that.
Even if its only because of the fact that US and EU will both at least need 1 each.
I suspect 2-3 servers in each region intially would be a smart move though. Go from there.

In 2008 Blizzard announced that WoW had cost $200million to operate since its release in 2004. This included all costs associated it; staff costs, hardware support, customer service, etc. At present they have around 500 servers, many of which opened with TBC and Wrath, so if we say for argument's sake they had on average 400 servers during this period this would put the cost per server at 125k per annum, obviously the actual cost is much less as there are unrelated costs such as management salaries, development costs in the overall figure.

As you can see from this figure your estimation of 10-15 people just to offer customer support is massively inflated and not representative of the actual costs supporting a WoW server.

[Raleina]

Wauw some of these people really think they are special because they paid $15 a month..... Just because you pay to play the game it does not mean you OWN BLIZZARD OR WORLD OF WARCRAFT. Maybe get that through your thick skulls and stop acting like tantrum throwing spoiled kids

[ninesters]

You think you do, but you don't...

[Stormspellz]

Can't wait for them to cave in to making a 1.x server copy and paste, and then the flooding of complaints would roll int: where is the group finder? LFR? why didn't you fix this or that? why is mounts lvl 40?

[ninesters]

That will ruin wow LOL,

[Super Kami Dende]

TBC Launch: 2 tiers of raid content. 11+ dungeons, Pvp overhaul, Proffesion overhaul, Extra profession, 2 races (with begin zones) 7 amazing outlandish zones, dailies (orgi'la), Heroics that were challenging as fuck and the biggest class overhaul ever. Along with with amazing attunements and challenging mini-zones. Also flying, but fuck flying.

This was without a patch. This was the launch patch. Now, Maggy, nightbane and gruul were killed in 20 days for the first time. Kael'thas was killed after 2 and a half months after launch. 3 days before, black temple released.

Wotlk, Malygos, Kel'thuzad and the black drake (forgot name) 25m were cleared in 48 hours including time to level.

Content wise, it was better by a mile. Don't tell me tbc and vanilla were just good because of Nostalgia and community.

Content wise they were good, I literally said that in the first sentence in comparison to WoD. MoP was better content-wise than Vanilla/Tbc though, easily.

Also, don't forget that Times on older boss fights can't be used as a measure of "difficulty" since there were many attunements that were needed and certain bosses like C'thun and Kael were broken as fuck even by admission of Blizzard due to extreme over-tuning for the current gear.

Also you look at the attempts of the "top end" raiders of Vanilla and TBC and they did quite a few pulls each week of the bosses, but no where near the amount of attempts as current top end guilds going for world first nowadays, some doing over 500 attempts on a single boss in a week.

So I will continue to tell you, that a lot of the greatness and joy of Vanilla is peoples nostalgia of it being new and the community it USED to have that we will never see again.

The core gameplay of WoW is leaps and bounds ahead.