[SPOILER-ish] Isn't Legions plan... flawed?

[Deleted]

Sargeras is seeking out worlds containing nascent Titans to ensure that a Dark Titan does not rise. I'm fairly sure everything else is collateral damage.

Not only those worlds. Those are priority targets, but he wants to murder everything just to be safe. Nothing is collateral damage for him. It's just lower on his prio list.

[Aquamonkey]

The number of Old Gods kept changing from 3 to 5 before. However, the Chronicle stated that there were only four Old Gods so there isn't any fifth Old God that no one knows about.

The way the novel is worded, the 3 Old Gods is just flavor lore. It's based on legends that Krasus had heard, which wouldn't necessarily be true. And everything else Krasus believed based on those old stories was blatantly wrong anyway.

But yea, in WC3 Manual and Blizzard's old website they did flip back and forth between 4 and 5 OGs.

Actually... we had not killed C'thun in Ahn'quiraj, but Cho'gall came and absorbed him while he was weakened. We killed Cho'gall and C'thun with him.

We did kill C'Thun in AQ, the quests say as much. Cho'gall was trying to resurrect it in the comic.

Overall, only N'zoth is left, and he's the biggest and strongest one yet.

That we'll deal with. Y'Shaarj was the most powerful of the 4 Old Gods.

Keep in mind what Aman'thul killing Y'shaarj did to Azeroth. Who's to say that our killing of C'thun and Yogg-saron, and soon N'zoth, is not inadvertently hurting the nascent Titan?

Chronicle's point about Aman'Thul killing Y'Shaarj was the way he did it, by physically ripping it out of the planet. Due to its deep tendrils, it ripped open a gaping wound (Well of Eternity) that was hemorrhaging the arcane lifeblood of the world-soul.

We kill the OGs a lot differently because we aren't as big or powerful as Aman'Thul. The way we kill OGs isn't physically damaging to Azeroth, but the bodies do let out a lot of corruption. Yogg says as much when we kill it, "The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for all eternity." But this doesn't mean we can't fix the corruption that does spill out. C'Thun's corruption was absorbed into Cho'gall and was presumably destroyed with him. We killed the Sha that came from Y'Shaarj's corruption. Garrosh absorbed the rest, and it disappeared when we killed him. So even the corruption can be cleansed.

[Deleted]

Can somone pls link me the quote where Blizzard says we killed C'Thun and Yogg-Saron once and for all.
Heard that statement many times already, but sadly without a source.

[scrappybristol]

Even if we did "kill" C'thun and Yogg, what's stopping Blizz from rezzing them through the power of plot?

I mean Illidan is back ffs.

[Qualia]

Can somone pls link me the quote where Blizzard says we killed C'Thun and Yogg-Saron once and for all.
Heard that statement many times already, but sadly without a source.

Copying an old post in Chronicle thread:

Blizzcon 2010 Q&A panel with Afrasiabi and Metzen, you can see the Q & A here

Q: ... if you have any theory about what the name for the next Old God would be, and elaborate a little upon the theory... a while ago, you asserted the theory that if the Old Gods were dealt with, that's doomsday and Azeroth would cease to be because of some catastrophic event. But so far, with two down, we're not really seeing much calamity happening.

A: Have you played any Cataclysm?
A: You know, like, when the world blows up? Because of the Old Gods.

Q: Because of the Old Gods?
A: Right. So...
<Have we publicly announce the next... (whispers)> - note: this part onwards is about N'Zoth and his corruption on the Emerald Dream for the questioner's question about next OG.

[Dequanacus]

Copying an old post in Chronicle thread:

Where in that quote is the confirmation? Blizzard is infatuated with avatars and spiritual presences so I have a hard time gleaning "completely destroyed" from "the Old Gods were dealt with"

I recall having heard a lot of "Only their physical shell, only a fraction of their power made into physical form, still locked within the planet etc"

[Aquamonkey]

I recall having heard a lot of "Only their physical shell, only a fraction of their power made into physical form, still locked within the planet etc"

That has only really been fanon. Even in the older lore, the OGs died. There was moderately old AskCDev that said OGs took a lot to manifest in a physical plane, indicating that they originate from a non-physical plane.

Who is the arakkoa "master" that Isfar talks about? It is not Terokk…
There are more Old Gods than just the ones trapped on Azeroth. It takes a lot for them to become manifested on a physical plane, however; see the quest line in Shadowmoon Valley that ends with "Thwart the Dark Conclave" for more information. (AskCDev)

Note that this said nothing about physical shells or their spirits.

Chronicle nails Old Gods as being physical beings. They were created by the void lords to infest baby titans.

[Al Gorefiend]

I don't believe the Old Gods to be dead, honestly.

Firstly, nothing is stopping them from being resurrected, C'thun was nearly resurrected by Cho'Gall, rather he had any success beyond his power absorption has yet to be seen. Yoggie was killed, but the way it's been explained to me (by other players, who I assumed knew more than me) was that we killed a "bubble" of Yogg-Saron, a little bit of his body that had poked out to the surface. His entire physical form spreads throughout all of Northrend and possibly beyond. Also, any attempt at a resurrection of Yogg is yet to be seen in lore.

It feels cheap to me honestly that C'thun and Yogg went down like complete chumps and without much of a whisper, but we're expected to believe this N'Zoth is somewhat of a big deal. I think we've yet to see the end of any of them.

[Aquamonkey]

I don't believe the Old Gods to be dead, honestly.

Firstly, nothing is stopping them from being resurrected, C'thun was nearly resurrected by Cho'Gall, rather he had any success beyond his power absorption has yet to be seen.

Needing to be resurrected is a pretty clear indication that the thing is dead. Resurrecting means come back from the dead.

Yoggie was killed, but the way it's been explained to me (by other players, who I assumed knew more than me) was that we killed a "bubble" of Yogg-Saron, a little bit of his body that had poked out to the surface. His entire physical form spreads throughout all of Northrend and possibly beyond. Also, any attempt at a resurrection of Yogg is yet to be seen in lore.

If a bug crawls into your brain and chomps it to pieces, you die even though it did nothing to the rest of your body. Yogg says its going to die, "The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for all eternity."

It feels cheap to me honestly that C'thun and Yogg went down like complete chumps and without much of a whisper,

Afrasiabi and Metzen said it lead to the Cataclysm.

[Qualia]

Where in that quote is the confirmation? Blizzard is infatuated with avatars and spiritual presences so I have a hard time gleaning "completely destroyed" from "the Old Gods were dealt with"

I recall having heard a lot of "Only their physical shell, only a fraction of their power made into physical form, still locked within the planet etc"

The questioner asked why hasn't been any calamity event with two Old Gods being dead. Blizzard anwered that the their deaths caused the Cataclysm. If that isn't enough of a confirmation for you, I'm not sure what might convince you. They are dead, simple enough.

All the "Only their physical shell, only a fraction of their power made into physical form, still locked within the planet etc" (quoting you) are just headcanon, without any official source stated as such - and are prime example of when headcanons are spread far enough that people actually believe that to be the truth. Admittedly, they might have some basis other than random guesses earlier on in WoW (around Vanilla to WoTLK) when the Old Gods' lore were still unclear (probably intentionally). We had Skeram's piece about a Titan fell in the fight with C'Thun, or we had another Old Gods' follower (that I can't remember name) with the "They do not die, they do not live, they are outside of the cycle" quote in WoTLK. However since then and especially with the release of Chronicle, it shouldn't be the case anymore.

Keep in mind that "will never come back" likely won't be stated ever and isn't the case. However, that doesn't mean they have many manifestation or we only reseal them and such (among quite a number of Old Gods' theories I read years ago). Everything in WoW, not just the Old Gods, can be revived if someone prepare a proper resurrection ritual.

[Syn22]

Yep. It's what helped bring about the Cataclysm.

Wha..? Deathwing crashing through the elemental plane of Deepholm was what caused the Cataclysm...sure he's a dragon under the control of an old god but it was not a chain-reaction from killing the 2 old gods.

The last I had known, C'Thun and Yogg'Saron were not truly dead as the old gods do not live and die as normal being do, we battled an eye of c'thun and one maw of a being who stretches and entire continent, if it was that easy to destroy them completely then why did the titanic watchers not just kill them - a small army bludgeoning them to death as opposed to a cosmic goliath ripping an old god from the planet - instead of imprisoning them? Even Y'Shaarj wasn't truly destroyed until after the siege of Orgrimmar, before his essence corrupted a fraction of the world through the result of his physical death.

[Aquamonkey]

or we had another Old Gods' follower (that I can't remember name) with the "They do not die, they do not live, they are outside of the cycle" quote in WoTLK.

Harbinger Skyriss in TBC. Herald Volazj

The avatar thing likely comes from the Prophecy of C'Thun (Vanilla) being taken out of context and misunderstood. This is the only reference for an OG having avatars, but it was talking about the Qiraji being created from Silithid to act on C'Thun's behalf. Not that C'Thun was an avatar body like Sargeras had against Aegwynn.

"The Old God would create avatars from the Silithid in its own image. These avatars were to be known as Qiraji."

[Qualia]

Wha..? Deathwing crashing through the elemental plane if Deepholm was what caused the Cataclysm...sure he's a dragon under the control of an old god but it was not a chain-reaction from killing the 2 old gods. I take it they hadn't even thought of what happened

The pre-event of Cataclysm (i.e: the elemental unrest, earth quaking, etc.) happened way before Deathwing bursted through Deepholm back to Azeroth. As powerful as Deathwing was, he likely isn't strong enough to damage Azeroth while being in another dimension all together. It was C'Thun and Yogg's deaths that weakened the planet enough for Deathwing to be able to cause the Cataclysm.

If you disagree with their answer, you can always ask them about that again whether C'Thun and Yogg's deaths were involved in the Cataclysm. However, as of now, it is WoG and thus, canon.

Like others have asked, where did this dead as dead thing come from? The last I had known, C'Thun and Yogg'Saron were not truly dead as the old gods do not live and die as normal being do, we battled an eye of c'thun and one maw of a being who stretches and entire continent, if it was that easy to destroy them completely then why did the titanic watchers not just kill them - a small army bludgeoning them to death as opposed to a cosmic goliath ripping an old god from the planet - instead of imprisoning them? Even Y'Shaarj wasn't truly destroyed until after the siege of Orgrimmar, before his essence corrupted a fraction of the world by his physical death.

Nothing indicated that they do not live and die as other normal beings (on Azeroth) do. So far, they haven't done anything special to show us the proof of that yet. Additionally, see Y'Shaarj - the one who was stated to be "dead dead dead" (yeah, the dev said it twice when someone asked if Y'Shaarj was still alive). Was he killed by some magical mean? No, Aman'thul just use one hand rip him up from the earth. Nothing special involved, just pure physical force. Also, as stated before, the Keepers didn't kill them because even when you kill them using the same method as us in the raid, Azeroth would still be damaged (see Cataclysm). At that time, and on theory, imprisoning them is the best choice since that (1) neutralize their threats completely, (2) doesn't damage Azeroth at all. Of course, it didn't turn out too well, but it was because of the unfortunate event of the Pantheon's defeat by Sargeras - they probably didn't foresee that.

People like to claim that the Old Gods can't die like other beings in WoW, but I haven't seen anything they (the OGs) can do to indicate that was the case. Meanwhile you have devs saying that Y'Shaarj are "dead dead dead" and C'Thun + Yogg's deaths caused the Cataclysm.

Harbinger Skyriss in TBC.

Just checked, it was Herald Volazj, that faceless one in Old Kingdom.

[Aquamonkey]

Wha..? Deathwing crashing through the elemental plane of Deepholm was what caused the Cataclysm...sure he's a dragon under the control of an old god but it was not a chain-reaction from killing the 2 old gods.

The balance of Azeroth was fucked up for weeks before Deathwing broke through.

The last I had known, C'Thun and Yogg'Saron were not truly dead as the old gods do not live and die as normal being do, we battled an eye of c'thun and one maw of a being who stretches and entire continent, if it was that easy to destroy them completely then why did the titanic watchers not just kill them - a small army bludgeoning them to death as opposed to a cosmic goliath ripping an old god from the planet - instead of imprisoning them? Even Y'Shaarj wasn't truly destroyed until after the siege of Orgrimmar, before his essence corrupted a fraction of the world through the result of his physical death.

The ravings of a fanatical servant of the OGs is hardly a reliable source.

Not every Old God is still alive and plotting. The Titans actually did kill a lot, so this particular Old God is dead. And is safely dead. Not all of the Old Gods were entombed. (Source)

But Y'shaarj itself is very, very, very dead. (Source)

C'Thun freed itself and rose to the surface. Then we killed it. This is stated in the quest. This is a plot point of the comics where Cho'gall tries to resurrect it.

Yogg-Saron nearly freed itself from Ulduar, but we killed it before the final restraints were broken. Yogg itself says it's gonna die and it's kinda salty about it. "Your fate is sealed. The end of days is finally upon you and ALL who inhabit this miserable little seedling. The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for all eternity."

Y'Shaarj died and only the heart was resurrected.

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Just checked, it was Herald Volazj, that faceless one in Old Kingdom.

Right. Skyriss said they'd beat the Legion.

[Syn22]

So the titanic watchers imprisoned the old gods instead of killing them because to do so might upset the balance of Azeroth for a few weeks to the extent a big bad dragon might burst through the elemental plane? Ok then... seems a bit anti-climactic but whatever. One old god is killed by a titan and it leaves a festering wound so great and in such need of healing the well of eternity is created, two old gods are killed and the aftermath of which, the landscape is slightly re-arranged...

Y'Shaarj died and only the heart was resurrected.

The heart was preserved, and with it the presence of Y'shaarj. The thing literally speaks to you during the Garrosh Hellscream fight.

I think most of you are looking into something which is mostly comical in tone. I've watched about 3 of those lore panels and it seems to be two people goofing around, being put on the spot by something they don't know the answer too and making stuff up for comedic effect. The highlight of them almost always seems to be a fat boy with a red shirt ripping through Metzen's knowledge of the game's lore.

[Al Gorefiend]

Needing to be resurrected is a pretty clear indication that the thing is dead. Resurrecting means come back from the dead.


If a bug crawls into your brain and chomps it to pieces, you die even though it did nothing to the rest of your body. Yogg says its going to die, "The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for all eternity."


Afrasiabi and Metzen said it lead to the Cataclysm.

Yeah when I said dead what I meant by that was dead for good, like never possibly coming back, like Arthas or Deathwing or now Archimonde. They have such good lore I don't want their story to be over yet.

Idk Aqua, don't you want to see them be more involved in the story? After reading Chronicle I thought how influential and powerful these beings are and how they were cut so early on in the story

[Aquamonkey]

So the titanic watchers imprisoned the old gods instead of killing them because to do so might upset the balance of Azeroth for a few weeks to the extent a big bad dragon might burst through the elemental plane? Ok then... seems a bit anti-climactic but whatever. One old god is killed by a titan and it leaves a festering wound so great and in such need of healing the well of eternity is created, two old gods are killed and the aftermath of which, the landscape is slightly re-arranged...

Or it fucked up Azeroth so much that the barrier between it and the Elemental Plane was weakened where DW busting through caused wide-spread cataclysm.

And it's not that the titans killed Y'Shaarj. It's how they did it. Aman'Thul physically reached down and ripped Y'Shaarj from the surface of the world. And like a weed with deep roots, doing so ripped open chunk of the surface.

The heart was preserved, and with it the presence of Y'shaarj. The thing literally speaks to you during the Garrosh Hellscream fight.

Y'Shaarj was dead, the heart was also dead. It still oozed corruption, but Y'Shaarj was dead. Again:

Not every Old God is still alive and plotting. The Titans actually did kill a lot, so this particular Old God is dead. And is safely dead. Not all of the Old Gods were entombed. (Source)

But Y'shaarj itself is very, very, very dead. (Source)

"Very, very, very dead."

IRT the heart:

Garrosh brings heart of Y'shaarj back to life using the pools of Pandaria. Fortunately, the whole God isn't resurrected. (DaveKosak)

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah when I said dead what I meant by that was dead for good, like never possibly coming back, like Arthas or Deathwing or now Archimonde. They have such good lore I don't want their story to be over yet.

Arthas' soul is stuck in whatever hell Sylvanas went to and can be brought back. We see an echo of his spirit in the DK artifact quest.

DW was killed in DS, but I don't recall it saying anything about what happened to his soul.

The intent was that Archimonde's soul was destroyed in Mythic, but they could always bring him back from another timeline.

The OGs can be resurrected, except Y'Shaarj whose essence faded to nothing after Garrosh drained the Heart and was defeated. C'Thun's essence might have faded to nothing as well after being absorbed by Cho'gall, who was later killed. Nothing was said about Yogg's essence.

Idk Aqua, don't you want to see them be more involved in the story? After reading Chronicle I thought how influential and powerful these beings are and how they were cut so early on in the story

Chronicle deflated the OGs quite a bit. With the exception of Y'Shaarj, the OGs were defeated by constructs (Y'Shaarj was too according to MoP, but that's been changed). The OGs aren't even the masters of their domain anymore, they are creations of something else and just hurled haphazardly throughout the universe.

[Dequanacus]

The questioner asked why hasn't been any calamity event with two Old Gods being dead. Blizzard anwered that the their deaths caused the Cataclysm. If that isn't enough of a confirmation for you, I'm not sure what might convince you. They are dead, simple enough.

I'm not adverse to them being dead, I simply don't see where in the quote it says they are dead. The question uses the wording "dealt with" and the response from Blizzard never said "dead". If I read the quote with the idea that destroying their shells caused the cataclysm, the quote does nothing to challenge that we merely took down their shells and in doing so, caused the Cataclysm. Perma death did not seem to be mentioned.

[Aquamonkey]

I'm not adverse to them being dead, I simply don't see where in the quote it says they are dead. The question uses the wording "dealt with" and the response from Blizzard never said "dead". If I read the quote with the idea that destroying their shells caused the cataclysm, the quote does nothing to challenge that we merely took down their shells and in doing so, caused the Cataclysm. Perma death did not seem to be mentioned.

Their bodies are their "shells" just as much as Gul'dan's body is a "shell". The OGs died. C'Thun needed resurrection by Cho'gall in the comics. Yogg says its corpse will choke the land for all eternity.

[Kellorion]

Historically all baddies plans are flawed. Arthas, didnt conquer all of Northrend. Garrosh/Grom, didnt subdue the Draenei/Frostwolves, didnt kill Gul'dan and company. Illidan ignored Gruul and Mags death, and the raid on SSC.