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  1. #241
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I'm responsible for her care, including her understanding the rules as to not hurt herself. For example, we have a big problem with her wandering out during the night and risking falling down the stairs. May I beat her to convince her not to do this?
    You are responsible for her physical well being. Parents are responsible for their child's mental development along with their physical well being. Your mother in law isn't your child.

    No, my argument already won quite awhile ago. It's just fun to watch the layers and layers of special pleading logical fallacies pile up.
    You're the one constantly bringing in logical fallacies while people have already linked studies proving you wrong.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Proving that an argument is just a special pleading fallacy IS debate. Welcome!
    As I said, your definition of proving things is just circling around your own opinion, rather than actually engaging in a conversation. You dodge, pull things out of context, but never actually answer the question. And your metaphores are pathetic, comparing a growing child to an impaired old woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High View Post
    why I asked if we're accepting anecdotes or not. /eyeroll
    and I've never mentioned the study because I don't NEED a study to tell me I shouldn't hit my kids.
    as for the last bit... /fucksabound
    I am against hitting children as well, no one should need an advice concerning beating your children. What matters is that you should never exclude the possibility that you might once in your life actually have to discipline your child.

    And the last bit, people are different. You have ignorant dumbfucks and you have 2 year olds that can recite the national anthem, by memory. And being children, they will abuse what their intellectual capacity allows them to understand.

    IQ does not equal EQ and EQ develops late. Very late. Why is bullying an issue? Because the realization of what is right and what is wrong, morality, does not actually land until puberty.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2016-04-26 at 08:22 PM.

  3. #243
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    So your argument really just boils down to: It's alright to hit children to teach them lessons, but nobody else, ever? What's the basis for this argument? Please present me the evidence that says beating a child instills lessons in ways that are somehow invalid for people in ANY other group.
    Again you fail to see the difference in spanking and beating. Until you understand this difference you haven't "won" anything here. Even the study in the OP tried to differentiate them.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    No, I said everybody is right and wrong! Spanking can be beneficial and damaging, so can any form of discipline because each human behaves and responds differently
    I think that spanking might help keep kids in line in the short term at least, but it also tends to make them question their parents' motives and weaken the credibility they have. And that last part is pretty important because ultimately what keeps kids on their best behavior is not the fear of punishment but the desire for approval from their parents and other authority figures, and that breaks down if they don't trust that adults have their best interest in mind.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    I think that spanking might help keep kids in line in the short term at least, but it also tends to make them question their parents' motives and weaken the credibility they have. And that last part is pretty important because ultimately what keeps kids on their best behavior is not the fear of punishment but the desire for approval from their parents and other authority figures, and that breaks down if they don't trust that adults have their best interest in mind.
    I think you overestimate the intelligence of children when it comes to motivations...
    You're not to think you are anything special. You're not to think you are as good as we are. You're not to think you are smarter than we are. You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are. You're not to think you know more than we do. You're not to think you are more important than we are. You're not to think you are good at anything. You're not to laugh at us. You're not to think anyone cares about you. You're not to think you can teach us anything.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    Again you fail to see the difference in spanking and beating. Until you understand this difference you haven't "won" anything here. Even the study in the OP tried to differentiate them.
    That's a fair point, so can you elaborate for me: What is the line for spanking my mother in law before it crosses over into beating?

  7. #247
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    No, my argument already won quite awhile ago. It's just fun to watch the layers and layers of special pleading logical fallacies pile up.
    Considering you can't even figure out the difference between beating random people or the mentally ill and legally defined parental discipline I'm not quite sure how you've arrived at that claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's a fair point, so can you elaborate for me: What is the line for spanking my mother in law before it crosses over into beating?
    She's an adult so any kind of spanking would not be seen as age appropriate in the eyes of the law.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone the Crow View Post
    So, was there a control group in this study? I'm thinking "no." In fact, I doubt they asked one group of parents to spank their children and one not to, considering how unethical that would be all around. If not, how did they go about studying it then? Asking adults how they turned out and whether or not they were spanked? Do they have any evidence that their answers were truthful or even remotely accurate?

    Hell, the study even gives a (generous) estimate that only 80% of the world's population uses spanking. So, does that mean that 80% of the population is somehow fucked up solely because they were spanked?

    I mean, Jesus Christ, if you say that 80% of the population was spanked, and even did your study squarely on prisoners (with the logic that they indeed turned out bad), wouldn't expect at least 80% of them to say they were spanked as kids? And if so, what the fuck does that prove?

    There's so much wrong with this whole thing. It's laughable to even call it a study. It reads more as a "finding the result we want and spinning the information in a way that we can sell more books about the virtues of wimpifying our species."
    Did you even read it?

    It included over 160,000 people, over a 50 year period, including children and adults who had not been spanked, and who had been spanked a lot. It studied varying levels of spankings and found that the more often administered were worse off. The study also did not include physical disciplinary actions that were considered abusive, and only studied open handed smacks on the bottom or extremities as a spank.

    There's so much wrong with your reply when you don't even read the article in the OP, much less look up the study itself.
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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by HBpapa View Post
    Considering you can't even figure out the difference between beating random people or the mentally ill and legally defined parental discipline I'm not quite sure how you've arrived at that claim.
    Maybe if you proved a case for the distinction, instead of just asserting a distinction exists, you'd have a point. However, you have no case for a distinction, because there isn't one. It's wrong to hit people, exponentially so when they are helpless to defend themselves, which is why me hitting my mother in law is so repugnant. Suspending this simple moral idea for children is something that you need to actually defend on some kind of ground, not just repeatedly assert the validity of doing.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    The study also did not include physical disciplinary actions that were considered abusive, and only studied open handed smacks on the bottom or extremities as a spank.
    And right away we can see why this is colloquially called soft science. There is no objective way to quantify whether a spank is abusive or not. You can try, but there's a huge gray area, and there is no way the study effectively parsed this out.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Did you even read it?

    It included over 160,000 people, over a 50 year period, including children and adults who had not been spanked, and who had been spanked a lot. It studied varying levels of spankings and found that the more often administered were worse off. The study also did not include physical disciplinary actions that were considered abusive, and only studied open handed smacks on the bottom or extremities as a spank.

    There's so much wrong with your reply when you don't even read the article in the OP, much less look up the study itself.
    It's funny. If you take their word for it, that they have investigated cases that are not beatings, but only occasional spanking (definition still required), we're talking about occurrences that would happen as often as burning your finger on the stove by accident, hitting your toe on the side of the bed, or hitting your head on the ceiling, or after falling down. It would happen as often as (scarily) being shouted at by strangers, because you just ran your tricycle into their new car (lacking the control to properly stay from it).

    There are many times in our lives, where we endure pain and psychological stress. Since this is about an occasional spanking and not about beatings, why do all these people that allegedly were spanked end up being wristcutters, according to such studies?

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by GrinningMan View Post
    I think you overestimate the intelligence of children when it comes to motivations...
    I'm pretty sure that all kids these days are well aware that spanking goes against social norms and is widely seen as a sign of irresponsible parenting, it's not as if this is some kind of recent idea either. So if they see their parents going against the rules and getting away with it, they're going to be less afraid of trying the same, even the dumbest kids can figure that out.

  13. #253
    The research does show that spanking is worse than many other methods of discipline or child rearing. Its not as bad as not correcting a dangerous or strongly undesirable behavior.

    The entire "I turned out fine" discussion or the "look how the ones who didn't get spanked turned out" really doesn't get us very far. Anecdotal evidence is great for making a testable hypothesis, its terrible for coming to conclusions. Don't hit your kids and they'll be smarter, its virtually a proven fact at this point. Not to mention people have a WILD perspective on spanking, the perception is that its performed on misbehaving 5-10 year olds, which it often is. But it is often performed in the MOST formative years between 1 and 4, when they really can't understand the purpose of the spanking anyways.

    Long story short, if no one spanked we'd be living in a much nicer society. Virtually none of the people who weren't spanked are in prison, and a much larger proportion of the ones who were are, its as simple as splitting everything into two camps and comparing.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    I'm pretty sure that all kids these days are well aware that spanking goes against social norms and is widely seen as a sign of irresponsible parenting, it's not as if this is some kind of recent idea either. So if they see their parents going against the rules and getting away with it, they're going to be less afraid of trying the same, even the dumbest kids can figure that out.
    Then you really do over-estimate what kids are paying attention to.
    You're not to think you are anything special. You're not to think you are as good as we are. You're not to think you are smarter than we are. You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are. You're not to think you know more than we do. You're not to think you are more important than we are. You're not to think you are good at anything. You're not to laugh at us. You're not to think anyone cares about you. You're not to think you can teach us anything.

  15. #255
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi256 View Post
    And right away we can see why this is colloquially called soft science. There is no objective way to quantify whether a spank is abusive or not. You can try, but there's a huge gray area, and there is no way the study effectively parsed this out.
    How is an open handed slap on the bottom or an extremity poorly defined? And that's just MY paraphrasing. I see spanking advocates are in full on denial and justify mode, and what's even funnier is that none of the people in full on spanking justification mode have even glanced at the study, much less the article GREATLY paraphrasing it.

    It's a big one. Perhaps you should go point out what parts of the paper have flaws to me? I'll wait.
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  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    I'm pretty sure that all kids these days are well aware that spanking goes against social norms and is widely seen as a sign of irresponsible parenting, it's not as if this is some kind of recent idea either. So if they see their parents going against the rules and getting away with it, they're going to be less afraid of trying the same, even the dumbest kids can figure that out.
    Actually, 1960's and after is what I would call recent, taking our entire human history. And the case is actually the reverse. If your kids know that you will never tap their butts in their lifetime, they will exploit that fact as often as they can. They have no awareness of laws, but they recognize weakness.

  17. #257
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiricine View Post
    Long story short, if no one spanked we'd be living in a much nicer society. Virtually none of the people who weren't spanked are in prison, and a much larger proportion of the ones who were are, its as simple as splitting everything into two camps and comparing.
    That's a very bold claim with little evidence

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    How is an open handed slap on the bottom or an extremity poorly defined? And that's just MY paraphrasing. I see spanking advocates are in full on denial and justify mode, and what's even funnier is that none of the people in full on spanking justification mode have even glanced at the study, much less the article GREATLY paraphrasing it.

    It's a big one. Perhaps you should go point out what parts of the paper have flaws to me? I'll wait.
    Frequency please, signed by all individual testimonies/ees.

    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    That's a very bold claim with little evidence
    It's a laughable one, since we have civilized, not withstanding global wars, across ages where physical punishment was law, rather than the reverse.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    How is an open handed slap on the bottom or an extremity poorly defined? I see spanking advocates are in full on denial and justify mode.
    How hard was the slap?

    Did the parent also grab an arm for leverage?

    Were clothes still on or were they taken off?

    How many slaps?

    Was it in public? Private? Were siblings watching? Were both parents involved?

    What was the emotional state of the parent when the event occurred? Was it accompanied by vocalization? How loud? What words were said?




    You are the one in denial if you think this, or any human behavior, is easy to study.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    In one of the largest, most comprehensive studies on the topic, researchers found:



    Source: http://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/ri...by-researchers


    I'm sure there will be many anecdotal stories about how "I was spanked, and I turned out fine." Similarly, I'm sure many people could tell us how they used to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, and yet they're currently completely healthy.

    The science seems to be settled on this issue for the time being. Stop spanking your children.
    I think your conclusion of "the science" might be a bit off. You're attempting to oversimplify a more complex issue.

    I am sure you could produce a similar study with parents who swear around their children. Because abusive people are more likely to spank and swear at their kids. It doesn't mean that spanking and swearing cause those behavioral problems. It means that the parents raise children with behavioral problems are more likely to engage in those behaviors more frequently.

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