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  1. #101
    Elemental Lord
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    Every day Erdogan seems to act less like a president and more like a dictator lol.

  2. #102
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexton View Post
    Western media or western media style. One is countries and the other a type of journalism.
    Foreign media outlet, you do know that western media is atleast 20 countries...the style is everything from independent to fox to cnn to niche type of agencies.

    It's open so you will have opinion pieces, agenda pieces and outright propaganda. You can often find what type of paper a company is running if its conservative, liberal, leftist, right, or middle.

    Different pieces different agencies. Just find it really weird to take 1000s of papers and just label them the same like they all had the same agenda.

    Western media is often independent when it comes to press hence you get articles like from that dutch journalist.
    This 100%. Though mainstream media can be a bit one-sided in a country, there are always other sources available. Not available, like in a website with a shortened URL, but different newspapers, different newschannels.

  3. #103
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    What about the other way around, should the Turkish feel obliged to respect the laws of The Netherlands when they come to visit?

    - - - Updated - - -



    She wrote it while she was in The Netherlands, she also posted it while in Turkey.
    Whether she wrote it in The Netherlands is irrelevant, legally relevant is what she did in Turkey and what she published while there is subject to the laws of Turkey.

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    We do not like leaders around us who can be bought, you never know whose money they take next.
    You're comparing laws against freedom of opinion to breaking laws that acteally harm others.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Worst part is, it was Dutch Turks who reported her. This issue goes way beyond just that 1 single journalist.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    We do not like leaders around us who can be bought, you never know whose money they take next.

    By West, I mean France, Germany, Britain and USA. Rest is pretty much irrelevant. Moving on, you need to read a bit of recent history then because it wasn't the case for Western foreign political paradigm. Let's talk about real international politics, not naive stuff that we often discuss here. Europe (triumvira) and USA, together with Israel, actually supported Erdogan in post 90s. He had close relationship with ambassadors from Israel, USA etc. when he was the mayor of Istanbul. That's some weird relationship right there. Moving on, his party had major support from West at the stage of its formation, not because AKP was the bringer of democracy for Turkey, but they were highly exploitable. If you check the Western Media of 2002, you will see how they were portrayed as the saviors of Turkey. I knew where Turkey was heading in 2002, at age of 13, when AKP was first elected, because I perfectly knew the nature of political Islamists. You're not gonna tell me West has failed to see it right?

    If you do not want to see problematic leaders in Middle East, push your politicians to change who they are supporting and vote accordingly instead of crying and spouting hatred (not you, average mmo-championer) for the very leaders that the politicians you voted supported throughly. Saudi Arabia is another example. Alternatively, you can cut the idealism crap and embrace the fact that bad leaders doesn't always correspond to bad output for West.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2016-04-26 at 02:36 PM.

  5. #105
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Heard some new info, Seems she tried to get out of Turkey when she heard about the 'snitch' line the Turkish Consulate set up in the Netherlands for insults against erdogan.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    You know too much about Turkey, are you sure you are a Dutch? I mean Dershane, Gulen and whatnot...This kind of sophistication regarding Turkey is a bit unexpected from a Westerner.
    I am ethnically Dutch yes but the majority of my social circle is Turkish and I've lived in Istanbul for a while (and will move there again soon). So I've been pretty invested in Turkish culture and Turkey for years now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Not sure how this is relevant with what I said. Lesane gave a good example of bullshit in Western Media. I've spotted and expressed more bullshit in the past, but they were dismissed because it was coming from a Turk. I am highly cynical about any media, be it Turkish or Western. Same can not be said for Westerners around here, they say our media is best, believe whatever is written there and dismiss anything coming from a foreign media outlet.
    Exactly, pretty much this. People think the West is "civilized" and free of corruption, hidden agendas and propaganda. It couldn't be further from the truth, it's just that they're better at hiding it and disguising it. People need to learn to do their own research and not just believe whatever the media tells them.

    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    Whether you like her or not, does not take away from the fact that freedom of speech is at stake here.
    Don’t you think there is a serious problem here if you know that Turkey wants to be member of the European Union? That Turkey uses the recent Syrian refugee problem as a way to put pressure on the EU? Turkey is basically blackmailing our whole system right now.
    Why would we want to allow a country that is opposed to our whole culture of freedom?
    Turkey wants to be a member of the EU because they want the benefits. It's not like wanting to be a member means they'll ever be a member. Turkey has been wanting to get into the EU for decades, and there's no indication that they will get in anytime soon. So I really don't see why people are scared about it. It's not like Turkey will enter the EU in the next 5 years and then start silencing Western media outlets or journalists or whatever.

    Also, I find it pretty weird to say that Turkey is blackmailing Europe with refugees. The only reason Turkey has the power to use the refugee crisis like they do now is because Europe is unwilling to help all the refugees even though they have far more landmass and finances than Turkey to support them. If Europe takes full responsibility for refugees then Turkey can't blackmail Europe for shit with refugees. You can't expect Turkey to just take all the refugees and not get anything in return for it.

    And again, freedom of speech is not at stake. She is allowed to criticize Erdogan but not insult him. There's laws in place in pretty much every (western) country that prevent people from abusing the freedom of speech to just mindlessly insult people, groups or ideologies. There's plenty of cases in the Netherlands were people got arrested or sued for stuff they said. Also, keep in mind that this "journalist" is free and so far she hasn't been punished at all so there's a chance nothing might even happen to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    I don’t Like Hans Teeuwen either, but he was freaking right, and at least was defending his freedom of speech. Something we should all be doing here.
    If you read some of the posts against Ebru Umar, you would know something wrong is going on in The Netherlands. The news about the burglary in her home and the word ‘Whore’ that was written on her wall, should make you start questioning the whole situation.

    Actually, if you look at it from another perspective, the arrest is a good thing for the awareness of people in Europe. It does 3 things:

    1. Make people realize they should not want Turkey in the Union
    2. Expose the hate sowing Turks in our country.
    3. Makes clear that Erdogan cannot cope with people who have a different opinion than his
    So just making up a random sad attempt at being funny story that Erdogan is a manwhore who still owes him a blowjob = defending freedom of speech? That's an interesting way of defending freedom of speech in my eyes. To me it's a perfect representation of what freedom of speech in the west has become. Freedom of speech in the west is now the freedom to be a complete dick and just insult and defame people without repercussions. We can't even think of normal ways to utilize this very important constitutional right anymore. It's degraded into a shitfest, and perhaps it's about time someone decides not to accept it anymore.

    Also, why are we now suddenly shocked of the reactions against Ebru Umar from the Dutch-Turkish population? Why are we not shocked over the bullshit that she's been writing over the past years? People don't seem to realize that what Ebru Umar has been writing about Turks and other minorities for years is just as bad as the stuff some Dutch Turks are posting on Facebook now. Yet nobody is shocked about that, nobody mentions failed integration, a lack of upbringing and so on. Apparently it's ok to just villify an entire group of people for years in public media, but then when the tables are turned there's suddenly an issue in our society? That's the hypocrisy of Dutch society at the moment. Ebru Umar is allowed to shit all over Turks and gets applauded for it, and then when they do the same to her people are suddenly shouting that they should go back to Turkey and that they aren't integrated. That's why she's so loved. She's a proxy for the racist feelings of bigoted (white) Dutch people. She spouts their racist bullshit for them, and since she's Turkish nobody can retaliate with the white privilege card or something along those lines.

    The Turks who post these things are not so much hate sowing as they are relieved that the person who has been hate sowing for years is finally getting what's coming to her. Is that the right thing to do? Nope, the people who are calling her a whore or other stuff on social media are just as retarded as she is, but to act like they are the only problem is pure hypocrisy.

    Also, Erdogan didn't arrest her for her opinion. Heck, who says it's even Erdogan or anyone from his government who snitched her to the police? It's far more likely that it was done by a Turk who was tired of her shit and found the perfect moment to report her seeing how she was bragging about her holiday in Turkey all over twitter. You do realize that "Erdogan" has only been making cases against outright insulting low blow satires and not so much for people just disagreeing with him? In Turkey there might be a few cases where one could say that journalists or media outlets have been silenced for such reasons, but so far no European has ever been in trouble for disagreeing with Erdogan.

    Regarding the breaking in of her house. Is anyone arrested for that so far? Why do people automatically just assume it was done by a Turk while they haven't found a suspect yet? Is it likely seeing the timing and the slur on the wall? Perhaps, but until the suspect is arrested and proven guilty it shouldn't even be a topic worth discussing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    I've read that column a few times and the only insulting thing she says to Erdogan is: Go fuck yourself. So masturbation is illegal in Turkey?
    Yes, because when you tell someone to go fuck themselves you're obviously just giving a friendly suggestion for them to have a fapping session. Don't be stupid. It's not even what she wrote. She tells Dutch Turks, who would snitch people for insults towards Erdogan to the Turkish consulates, to go fuck themselves and to go fuck Erdogan while they're at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexton View Post
    Western media or western media style. One is countries and the other a type of journalism.
    Foreign media outlet, you do know that western media is atleast 20 countries...the style is everything from independent to fox to cnn to niche type of agencies.

    It's open so you will have opinion pieces, agenda pieces and outright propaganda. You can often find what type of paper a company is running if its conservative, liberal, leftist, right, or middle.

    Different pieces different agencies. Just find it really weird to take 1000s of papers and just label them the same like they all had the same agenda.

    Western media is often independent when it comes to press hence you get articles like from that dutch journalist.
    There is not a single nuanced news source in the Netherlands when it comes to news related to Turkey or Turks. Even the Turkish newspaper here is insanely biased against everything that has to do with Erdogan because it's owned by the Gulen movement who used to be die hard Erdogan supporters but then decided to do a complete 180 once Erdogan started cutting into their money making schemes in Turkey. At this point Erdogan hate is so ingrained in Western society that any Western media outlet trying to write supportive news or even just nuanced news about Erdogan commits career suicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigpolomo View Post
    I know a turkisk person. She has a hard time dealing with people who has a problem with her appearance or just anything that is in her personality.

    "If you say i am fat and ugly! I will slap you right back!" Erdogan is acting like a little girl and that does not suprise me as he is from the middle-east. Imagine if Blizzard did that. "You say our product is shit!? To jail with you bitch!".

    She does not realize that what she said there was super childish in itself. She is oblivious, probably because of their culture.
    It's true that Turkish culture is far less tolerant of outright insulting people than most Western cultures. You consider her childish for responding with violence for insulting her, but perhaps the person who is insulting her in the first place is the childish one, or just as childish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    This 100%. Though mainstream media can be a bit one-sided in a country, there are always other sources available. Not available, like in a website with a shortened URL, but different newspapers, different newschannels.
    See above, yes you have media with different backgrounds and agendas but there's not a single well known Dutch media outlet that has nuanced news about Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    You're comparing laws against freedom of opinion to breaking laws that acteally harm others.
    So if a Turk comes here and starts shouting and spamming "FUCK THE KING" everywhere and he gets arrested you would be opposed to it? Also, what's harming really? Physical harm? Why isn't emotional harm not taken seriously?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    Worst part is, it was Dutch Turks who reported her. This issue goes way beyond just that 1 single journalist.
    That's just her personal assumption and as far as I know it hasn't been confirmed that the person who reported her is Dutch Turkish. Either way, even if that is the case how is that an issue? She's been shitting over Turks in general for years with her garbage columns. That's ok but reporting her for breaking the law in a country where she's currently residing isn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    Heard some new info, Seems she tried to get out of Turkey when she heard about the 'snitch' line the Turkish Consulate set up in the Netherlands for insults against erdogan.
    Some funny info: she herself was the person who snitched Ayaan Hirsi Ali to Rita Verdonk for using a false identity, which eventually caused Hirsi Ali to resign and move from the Netherlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Because Turkey is closer to what these refugees are used to and they fit in better.
    They share the same religion and their culture is more collectivist yes, but that's about where the similarities between Turks and Syrians end.
    Last edited by Lesane; 2016-04-26 at 10:47 PM.

  7. #107

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