No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Eapoe]

No it is not.

I don't see how that "compromise" benefits me in the slightest.

I don't know, maybe because as I've stated previously it gives players that are arguing for flight a lot of things they ask for, the world immersion, control in the skies of where you go to, different ways to explore. I mean, the longer this thread goes the more it becomes apparent that people don't want flight for the reasons they are using and just looking for a way to cut corners.
I even offered a way with 60% flying with unchanged ground mounts, the only restriction in place is just the flying mounts are slower and people wouldn't even go for that. Unrestricted flight access, level 100 available, but nope, it's not the fastest either, so that is unacceptable.

- - - Updated - - -

No not really. Thats not a compromise I'd enjoy. I'd rather not go with some "flight pad"

I'd rather see blizzard work on in game mobs or devices that affect max level fliers. Design keeps are areas and that easier and harder to get into and out of if you fly vs tackle it on the ground. One being harder than the other depending in the quests and areas.

blizzard is more willing to take the easy way out with some cheap no fly gimmick than put in that design effort to create a world based on max level fly but also mobs that are capable of dealing with flyers when need be based on the area.

A flight pad isn't a good compromise.

Don't you have designs like that already now that flight is in WoD? Don't misunderstand me, I'm not arguing the design of WoD being great or horrible, but with the Apexis zones, you have ways to go in on the ground, and now that flight is out you have ways to go in from the air. Or are you wanting more for WoW to become like a flight sim? Here's your quest, now choose to deploy by land and fight thru or go by air while executing extreme aerodynamics (do a barrel roll!) while on an on rails path into the keep? Cuz yeah, that sounds awesome, but it also sounds like a lot more design and development time, and with so far between xpacs even this would become stale at some point and we'd be right back where players are complaining about content drought.

[Connll]

I have an excellent compromise for Blizzard, right here:

Put Flight back in the game, as it was in BC to Pandaria, and I´ll buy and subscribe to your game. Don´t, and you won´t see my business.

How´s THAT for a compromise?

[clevin]

I don't know, maybe because as I've stated previously it gives players that are arguing for flight a lot of things they ask for, the world immersion, control in the skies of where you go to, different ways to explore. I mean, the longer this thread goes the more it becomes apparent that people don't want flight for the reasons they are using and just looking for a way to cut corners.
I even offered a way with 60% flying with unchanged ground mounts, the only restriction in place is just the flying mounts are slower and people wouldn't even go for that. Unrestricted flight access, level 100 available, but nope, it's not the fastest either, so that is unacceptable.

- - - Updated - - -



Don't you have designs like that already now that flight is in WoD? Don't misunderstand me, I'm not arguing the design of WoD being great or horrible, but with the Apexis zones, you have ways to go in on the ground, and now that flight is out you have ways to go in from the air. Or are you wanting more for WoW to become like a flight sim? Here's your quest, now choose to deploy by land and fight thru or go by air while executing extreme aerodynamics (do a barrel roll!) while on an on rails path into the keep? Cuz yeah, that sounds awesome, but it also sounds like a lot more design and development time, and with so far between xpacs even this would become stale at some point and we'd be right back where players are complaining about content drought.

You'r proposals fail because they still restrict flight and no one has yet really justified why flight as it was in MoP and before is that bad. The arguments come down to a few:

1) "I like no flight" which isn't an argument, just a preference. Note, too, that the person putting this forth can choose not to fly but feels others need to also not fly.

2) "Flight is bad because of wPVP" usually put forth by people who never PVPed in vanilla. Has other issues - 1) PVE realms... 2) wPVP really died pre-flight in TBC with instanced BGs that gave better rewards/honor, 3) why should I be forced to PVP just because you want to?

3) "Flight is bad because it trivializes max level quests" - the Bashiok argument which is easy to refute. His example was a quest telling us to kill a named... we'd just fly to the named vs ride through NPCs. Of course the quest could a) have us kill Named and N guards or b) have us kill Named and search the camp for Plans (forcing encounters with the guards). Most examples in this category are just as easy to counter by proposing simple adjustments to the quests.

4) "Flight is bad because people don't interact" As if when I'm riding around in a zone and see another player I go talk to the vs riding past. Hint, I don't.


That's really it. None of those are compelling reasons to disallow max level flight as it was in MoP etc, hence there's no reason to accept any compromise.

[SirCowdog]

Or it's just what the word implies, a common ground to benefit both sides,

Except that people aren't using the word that way. Usually when they say 'compromise' they actually mean just throwing some halfassed bone to the flying crowd like Pathfinder, which doesn't actually give the people who want to fly anything they want, or gives it to them in a form that's useless.

A real compromise would be to make choosing between flying or ground mounts a real decision, with real consequences. Off the top of my head, what if people who chose a ground mount instead of air were allowed to stay mounted in combat like in Nagrand. People on the ground would move faster in-combat, while people with flying mounts would be at a disadvantage once they landed by not having the faster ground movement, while maintaining the advantage of approaching combat how they choose?

I'm not saying that would be perfect(since it would change the dynamic of open world pvp significantly! But it would at least be a real choice. A REAL compromise instead of just trying to cripple flying or turn it into a gimmick like Aviana's feather.

As for common ground? What does the ground design compromise on? How does it change to suit flying at all? Would there be some flying content built into the open world to accommodate fliers? Would some encounters be more interesting or more engaging for people not on the ground? Would we see more bombing runs or netherdrake races, or similar quests?

This is the problem with people who say they want a compromise, but really just want to mollify the pro-flight crowd with something weak. Blizzard is basically saying: "Do everything we want and MAYBE you'll get back some of what you already had for the past 7-8 years. Oh, and pay us $50+15/mo for our generous offer."

For anyone who wants flight, that's not a compromise, that's a ransom demand.

[wing5wong]

I have an excellent compromise for Blizzard, right here:

Put Flight back in the game, as it was in BC to Pandaria, and I´ll buy and subscribe to your game. Don´t, and you won´t see my business.

How´s THAT for a compromise?

Thats an ultimatum, not a compromise.
Dont let the door hit you on the way out

[Connll]

Thats an ultimatum, not a compromise.
Dont let the door hit you on the way out

Your statement will have a feather of weight when you show me ONE place in the world where a customer is NOT entitled to decide what to do with his money.

Go on.

I´ll wait.

- - - Updated - - -

For anyone who wants flight, that's not a compromise, that's a ransom demand.

I believe you meant to use the world insult.

[wing5wong]

Except that people aren't using the word that way. Usually when they say 'compromise' they actually mean just throwing some halfassed bone to the flying crowd like Pathfinder, which doesn't actually give the people who want to fly anything they want, or gives it to them in a form that's useless.

A real compromise would be to make choosing between flying or ground mounts a real decision, with real consequences. Off the top of my head, what if people who chose a ground mount instead of air were allowed to stay mounted in combat like in Nagrand. People on the ground would move faster in-combat, while people with flying mounts would be at a disadvantage once they landed by not having the faster ground movement, while maintaining the advantage of approaching combat how they choose?

I'm not saying that would be perfect(since it would change the dynamic of open world pvp significantly! But it would at least be a real choice. A REAL compromise instead of just trying to cripple flying or turn it into a gimmick like Aviana's feather.

As for common ground? What does the ground design compromise on? How does it change to suit flying at all? Would there be some flying content built into the open world to accommodate fliers? Would some encounters be more interesting or more engaging for people not on the ground? Would we see more bombing runs or netherdrake races, or similar quests?

This is the problem with people who say they want a compromise, but really just want to mollify the pro-flight crowd with something weak. Blizzard is basically saying: "Do everything we want and MAYBE you'll get back some of what you already had for the past 7-8 years. Oh, and pay us $50+15/mo for our generous offer."

For anyone who wants flight, that's not a compromise, that's a ransom demand.

Its not a ransom demand at all when the payment is entirely optional.

Assuming people are polar opposites on the pro/against flight thing is also ridiculous. There are varying degress of what people want. some dont care, some just want to fly when they're done with content, some want to fly for all the content, and some (like yourself i believe) want flight to be a more integrated part of the game (aerial combat etc.). A game where i jump around with a lance on a hippogryph trying to point and lance something isnt what i would want to play.
There is so muc hpersonal preference in this that it is impossible to please everyone, but dont assume just because wwpeople dont want a full in depth flight system/mechanics/quests/whatever that they dont want flight and will actively try to stop others having it

Point and click bombing runs were not exciting. I didnt mind one in ogrila for example, those and the simon says games were interesting additions, but i wouldnt want them to be the core quests.

- - - Updated - - -

Your statement will have a feather of weight when you show me ONE place in the world where a customer is NOT entitled to decide what to do with his money.

Go on.

I´ll wait.

- - - Updated - - -



I believe you meant to use the world insult.

Dont spend it with blizzard, i dont believe they will care.
In that case you are not a customer at all.

Any business will laugh at you if you go in demanding something they do not provide.
Try productive feedback instead, and even then, expect a 'thanks, but no thanks' reply if the business doesnt agree

[Eapoe]

You'r proposals fail because they still restrict flight and no one has yet really justified why flight as it was in MoP and before is that bad. The arguments come down to a few:

1) "I like no flight" which isn't an argument, just a preference. Note, too, that the person putting this forth can choose not to fly but feels others need to also not fly.

2) "Flight is bad because of wPVP" usually put forth by people who never PVPed in vanilla. Has other issues - 1) PVE realms... 2) wPVP really died pre-flight in TBC with instanced BGs that gave better rewards/honor, 3) why should I be forced to PVP just because you want to?

3) "Flight is bad because it trivializes max level quests" - the Bashiok argument which is easy to refute. His example was a quest telling us to kill a named... we'd just fly to the named vs ride through NPCs. Of course the quest could a) have us kill Named and N guards or b) have us kill Named and search the camp for Plans (forcing encounters with the guards). Most examples in this category are just as easy to counter by proposing simple adjustments to the quests.

4) "Flight is bad because people don't interact" As if when I'm riding around in a zone and see another player I go talk to the vs riding past. Hint, I don't.


That's really it. None of those are compelling reasons to disallow max level flight as it was in MoP etc, hence there's no reason to accept any compromise.

1). I totally agree with and never take opinions as points of fact in any debate.
2). Actually a decent arguement in the sense that, no, flying did not kill wPvP, it definitely fired a few critical shots. This isn't as big of a factor on PvE or RP realms, but it does play a part in PvP realms. As far as being forced to PvP, again, if you're on a PvP realm that kind of shoots down the "but I don't want to be forced into PvP" arguement.
3). There will always be "collect X items" or "kill named NPC" quests. The adds variety into what you are doing in the world with all of the other quest designs. If there was no variety, how boring would it get to just go "kill NPC and 10 random mobs?" for every quest in the game. Flight does trivialize his examples, end of debate on that topic and people shooting down his example. You can counter it with other quest ideas, but in a game teeming with "kill X named NPC," it's hard to refute that point.
4). As far as this point, I will agree again; however, this is mainly due to the fact of how casual the game has become over years and the recommendation of having other people in a group is null. WotLK was the last xpac to have recommended player groups for elites. If this was brought back though then this point would be more valid.
Max level flight is still in the game, even in WoD. It will also be in Legion (though I know some people are worried without a meta being shown yet), so the compromise isn't for flight in general, it was an idea for having it as soon as you hit 110, instead of being gated behind who knows how many patches and achievements.

- - - Updated - - -

Except that people aren't using the word that way. Usually when they say 'compromise' they actually mean just throwing some halfassed bone to the flying crowd like Pathfinder, which doesn't actually give the people who want to fly anything they want, or gives it to them in a form that's useless.

A real compromise would be to make choosing between flying or ground mounts a real decision, with real consequences. Off the top of my head, what if people who chose a ground mount instead of air were allowed to stay mounted in combat like in Nagrand. People on the ground would move faster in-combat, while people with flying mounts would be at a disadvantage once they landed by not having the faster ground movement, while maintaining the advantage of approaching combat how they choose?

I'm not saying that would be perfect(since it would change the dynamic of open world pvp significantly! But it would at least be a real choice. A REAL compromise instead of just trying to cripple flying or turn it into a gimmick like Aviana's feather.

As for common ground? What does the ground design compromise on? How does it change to suit flying at all? Would there be some flying content built into the open world to accommodate fliers? Would some encounters be more interesting or more engaging for people not on the ground? Would we see more bombing runs or netherdrake races, or similar quests?

This is the problem with people who say they want a compromise, but really just want to mollify the pro-flight crowd with something weak. Blizzard is basically saying: "Do everything we want and MAYBE you'll get back some of what you already had for the past 7-8 years. Oh, and pay us $50+15/mo for our generous offer."

For anyone who wants flight, that's not a compromise, that's a ransom demand.

Your examples, while good from a design standpoint, are not examples of compromise. Those are game design changes, something that Blizzard either doesn't have the technical capabilities for (not saying hardware, saying the dev team might just not be good at making this feasible), or just won't put in the game because of development time. Maybe something like the next xpac if this is addressed to them from the start of Legion, seeing as how they always state they are working on the next xpac the release date of the last.
To stress the point I one of my last posts though, for everyone who has used the reasoning of "free travel, different playstyle, exploration, etc," the more people refuse to even acknowledge different ways flight can be integrated while realizing your and Blizzards ideals, the more it seems like people do in fact just want flight to cut corners.

[clevin]

1). I totally agree with and never take opinions as points of fact in any debate.
2). Actually a decent arguement in the sense that, no, flying did not kill wPvP, it definitely fired a few critical shots. This isn't as big of a factor on PvE or RP realms, but it does play a part in PvP realms. As far as being forced to PvP, again, if you're on a PvP realm that kind of shoots down the "but I don't want to be forced into PvP" argument.

Working backward - I may be open to PVP in general but I don't want to PVP right then, when you want to. On PVE realms wPVP is, outside of a few areas like Halaa, etc utterly meaningless so there's no reason to hold those people back from flying in the name of wPVP.

3). There will always be "collect X items" or "kill named NPC" quests. The adds variety into what you are doing in the world with all of the other quest designs. If there was no variety, how boring would it get to just go "kill NPC and 10 random mobs?" for every quest in the game. Flight does trivialize his examples, end of debate on that topic and people shooting down his example. You can counter it with other quest ideas, but in a game teeming with "kill X named NPC," it's hard to refute that point.

No it's not hard to refute it. I just did that. If they want to make the quest ONLY Kill Named X knowing I can fly past other mobs then that's on them. If they want a quest to deal with flight as a capability then they need to stop being lazy and make them do that. Note, too, we're talking *max level* quests.

4). As far as this point, I will agree again; however, this is mainly due to the fact of how casual the game has become over years and the recommendation of having other people in a group is null. WotLK was the last xpac to have recommended player groups for elites. If this was brought back though then this point would be more valid.
Max level flight is still in the game, even in WoD. It will also be in Legion (though I know some people are worried without a meta being shown yet), so the compromise isn't for flight in general, it was an idea for having it as soon as you hit 110, instead of being hated behind who knows how many patches and achievements.

Again, no. People didn't randomly meet and talk all that much in vanilla and TBC and when we did it was around quests. Want people to interact more? Make people walk or run. No mounts at all...

Yes flight's in. At the very end, after we're done with everything. That's not what we're talking about.

[Eapoe]

Working backward - I may be open to PVP in general but I don't want to PVP right then, when you want to. On PVE realms wPVP is, outside of a few areas like Halaa, etc utterly meaningless so there's no reason to hold those people back from flying in the name of wPVP.


No it's not hard to refute it. I just did that. If they want to make the quest ONLY Kill Named X knowing I can fly past other mobs then that's on them. If they want a quest to deal with flight as a capability then they need to stop being lazy and make them do that. Note, too, we're talking *max level* quests.


Again, no. People didn't randomly meet and talk all that much in vanilla and TBC and when we did it was around quests. Want people to interact more? Make people walk or run. No mounts at all...

Yes flight's in. At the very end, after we're done with everything. That's not what we're talking about.

Very specifically and literally what is being talked about is the fact that Blizzard designed last xpac and the next one to be based off of ground, where flight is not only necessary but also hampers the design of how they are making the game. People want flight at max level and not at a TBA date of the xpac. Being offered are things people have come up with to compromise so the pro flight playerbase as well as Blizzard get something close to what they are both looking for.
People are trying to come up with ways to have Blizzard make flight not only viable but also fun upon reaching max level. The issue with that is the design ideas are already out. The ideas the playerbase is coming up with needs to be iterated and echoed thru Legion to hopefully get their vision in the game, not roughly 3 months before the release of the game that would take a major rework of not only quests but zone design as well. At this point, the arguements on all sides are moot because the xpac is technically done, the general idea of how things will be released is done, and Blizzard designed all of it a certain way. Namely, the beginning of the xpac without flight, and maybe somewhere down the line when flight is introduced in Legion people might get some of the things the ask for in some new zone content.

[PragmaticGamer]

Honestly, I think the best idea is mine. :-)

Instead of restricting/disabling flying mounts, how about buffing ground mounts?

For instance, give bonus ore/herbs (for gathering professions) to anyone who hasn't been flying in the last 30 seconds.

Or give a bonus to PvE or PvP combat to anyone who hasn't been flying in the last 30 seconds.

Or only allow people to access world treasures if they haven't been flying in the last 2 minutes.

*********

In addition, restructure quests so that people can't bypass the "nuisance" mobs. One example I recently heard was that attacking the "leader" mob or opening the treasure chest spawns "nuisance" mobs, which you have to defeat to get credit. Then it doesn't matter if you flew or rode there.

[Connll]

Dont spend it with blizzard, i dont believe they will care.
In that case you are not a customer at all.

You are right. As of 3 days before 6.2 hit, I, alongside at least 5 million others, am an EX-customer.

And your belief is not required; Blizzard cared enough to reverse their "no-flight ever again" stance in 2 weeks after their announcement. Sooner rather than later, they´ll do the same for Legion.

Any business will laugh at you if you go in demanding something they do not provide.

A business that doesn´t do what their customers demand doesn´t stay in business for long. Just to keep in the MMO side of the question, I´ll give you 4 words. Stars Wars Galaxies. NGE.

Try productive feedback instead, and even then, expect a 'thanks, but no thanks' reply if the business doesnt agree

You mean, like me and the pro-flight crowd have been doing for the last few hundreds of posts?

Your projection is showing.

P.S: I´m still waiting for ONE place in this entire world where a customer making use of his prerrogative of spending his money wherever he wants for whatever reason he wants is considered an ultimatum.

[clevin]

Very specifically and literally what is being talked about is the fact that Blizzard designed last xpac and the next one to be based off of ground, where flight is not only necessary but also hampers the design of how they are making the game.

You're confusing what that said with what they did. There's nothing in WoD that would be hurt by flight. NOTHING. There's no content that they did because, now that players can't fly they can do X. IN fact, there was less open world content in WoD that in MoP, Cata, LK, etc.

People want flight at max level and not at a TBA date of the xpac. Being offered are things people have come up with to compromise so the pro flight playerbase as well as Blizzard get something close to what they are both looking for.

And this is bullshit. You refuse to admit it, but we don't want a compromise because any compromise is backsliding from the way we had flight before and there's no demonstrated reason for it

[SirCowdog]

Dammit I wish I wasn't at work. These posts deserve better than I can give while typing on my phone during break.

I will shorthand: You guys are right when you say that 3 months from launch is too short of a time to make significant changes to the fundamental nature of the flying mechanics. But remember that this argument has been going on since WoD beta, at the very least.

Regardless, I should personally be more clear about the scope of my individual posts. At this point in time I think the best fliers can realistically hope for is a pathfinder style unlock that can be completed in 7.1. There's a tiny chance that the unlock includes a Green-fire style quest as well.



While I'm obviously not 100% OK with that, I think even I would grudgingly accept it depending on how much more content was left in the expansion for flight to be used on, and what level of quality we see out of the live 7.0 content. If 7.1 and beyond is just a pile of no-fly islands, or the unlock contains a bunch of time-gated nonsense like the epic ring/cloak, then Blizzard can shove Legion where the sun don't shine.

[Connll]

If 7.1 and beyond is just a pile of no-fly islands, Blizzard can shove pathfinder where the sun don't shine.

Unfortunately, this is the most likely scenario. By far.

[Eapoe]

You're confusing what that said with what they did. There's nothing in WoD that would be hurt by flight. NOTHING. There's no content that they did because, now that players can't fly they can do X. IN fact, there was less open world content in WoD that in MoP, Cata, LK, etc.



And this is bullshit. You refuse to admit it, but we don't want a compromise because any compromise is backsliding from the way we had flight before and there's no demonstrated reason for it

Nothing in WoD would be hurt by flight, except the fact that Blizzard designed content to be ground based. The main point is that unlike previous xpacs with flight, WoD was the first designed where you didn't have to have it. I've never said flying would hurt it, I quoted what Blizzard stated that it would trivialize it. When a game is designed to be completely accessible without something, and then something is introduced that negates the way that world was designed, that trivializes it.
I'm not refusing to admit nothing. I know you don't want a compromise, but that's kind of where all of your frustration is coming from. Legion, in the vein of WoD, will not have flight at launch and is, again, completely not necessary. Therefore there is no obligation or even need for Blizzard to put it in game at max level or even soon after launch. To get them to do that, you WILL need to compromise to get what you want. The compromises are things to take to Blizzard in ways to convince them to include flight sooner. You compromise by giving up free landing wherever (in this case, and a very small price to pay), and Blizz compromises by giving you flight sooner.
The fact you are so unwilling to attempt a compromise and demand something from the other party when there is no reason to, is not only absurd, but just the playerbase being pigheaded in their views. Yes, I'm willing to agree Blizz is pigheaded in their design, but here's the problem with the comparison, THEY get to design the game.

[wing5wong]

You are right. As of 3 days before 6.2 hit, I, alongside at least 5 million others, am an EX-customer.

5 million people didnt stop their sub because of flying mounts.

And your belief is not required; Blizzard cared enough to reverse their "no-flight ever again" stance in 2 weeks after their announcement. Sooner rather than later, they´ll do the same for Legion.

They already said flying would be in legion, your point?

A business that doesn´t do what their customers demand doesn´t stay in business for long. Just to keep in the MMO side of the question, I´ll give you 4 words. Stars Wars Galaxies. NGE.

A tire business doesnt need to take up spray coating just because customers want them to.

You mean, like me and the pro-flight crowd have been doing for the last few hundreds of posts?

Productive feedback doesn't mean your feedback will be implemented. Feedback doesn't include an expectation

P.S: I´m still waiting for ONE place in this entire world where a customer making use of his prerrogative of spending his money wherever he wants for whatever reason he wants is considered an ultimatum.

"IF YOU DONT DO THIS, THEN IM GOING TO DO THAT" is an ultimatum. I never said you dont have a choice in where to spend your money. That is entirely up to you.

- - - Updated - - -

Regardless, I should personally be more clear about the scope of my individual posts. At this point in time I think the best fliers can realistically hope for is a pathfinder style unlock that can be completed in 7.1. There's a tiny chance that the unlock includes a Green-fire style quest as well.

Personally the best option in my eyes, outside of game design changes (which wont happen at this point. be realistic. maybe next expac)

[SirCowdog]

Unfortunately, this is the most likely scenario. By far.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. With no new info at all about 7.0, it's little more than raw speculation as to what will be in 7.1. We could see anything from a selfie-cam to a full blown epic quest line. We just don't know.

Personally the best option in my eyes, outside of game design changes (which wont happen at this point. be realistic. maybe next expac)

It's far from the 'best' option, even for 7.1, which could include entire new zones or god knows what. The delay and lack of information about flying in Legion could theoretically be due to Blizzard keeping something very cool under wraps. While I think that's unlikely, it IS within the realm of possibility, especially considering the amount of controversy and feedback surrounding the issue. If nothing else, Blizzard is NOT stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

. Yes, I'm willing to agree Blizz is pigheaded in their design, but here's the problem with the comparison, THEY get to design the game.

This might just be the hope of a staunch supporter of flight, but let's look at a few things.


While 7.0 appears to be locked in for no-flying, Blizzard responded to player feedback and reversed their stance in 6.2. That means they've had at least that long to design something for flight in 7.1. That's what...almost a year and a half from then til whenever 7.1 goes live?

We already know that Blizzard has promised flight in Legion, and that the Broken Isles terrain is almost certainly designed to be flight-ready from launch(unlike draenor was). So even though 7.0 will not have flight at launch, it's at least possible there COULD be something fundamentally game-changing in the works for later in the expansion.

This all pure speculation of course. I just wanted to point out that while we are talking 3 months before launch right now, blizz could potentially have been working and looking at it for a lot longer.

[Demoneq]

If nothing else, Blizzard is NOT stupid.

After the colossal screw up that WoD is, and the possibility, that they indeed created zones like Gorgrond and Nagrand with ground travel -only- in mind, I'm not so sure about that (elaborating: if anyone really thought the exercise in frustration, that those zones are, will be entertaining for players, then that person or people is/are an utter moron(s), and should never again be allowed to work in any sort of gaming industry, video games or otherwise).

[wing5wong]

What was wrong with nagrand and gorgrond? quest flow was good and zones progressed quickly?