[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[aemaet]

So, how do you guys think, would this be a good replacement for shadow crash? http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=2169...evouring-force

[Seriv]

Shadow Crash doesn't need a replacement, it needs higher numbers or a shorter cooldown. It is meant to sacrifice single target damage for some burst multi target damage.

[Koire]

It depends. If the targets really need to be focused down rather than through mindless multidotting, then the best thing to do is probably to dot up a couple with Shadow Word: Pain and just single target nuke the target you're assigned to, preferably saving Void Torrent to do so if possible. This is assuming there's some sort of assignments going on of which players go on which adds. If it's FFA then you should just dot about 6 - 7 targets with Shadow Word: Pain whilst trying to refresh the targets you dotted up first with Void Bolt, saving Void Torrent until you have the amount of Shadow Word: Pains up that you desire if at all possible (unless the fix to Sphere next build doesn't include Void Torrent, which is more likely than not). You may even be able to dot up more targets within that timeframe but it's hard to judge that just by reading a hypothetical situation. If the adds die within the timeframe you mentioned putting up Vampiric Touch is a waste of time, Shadow Word: Pain ticks faster and synergizes with SI/AS/Sphere. Therefore, San'layn is also quite useless in this situation. In fact there's never going to be situation where San'layn will be the go to multidot talent, as Shadow Word: Pain is just superior in these types of pop up adds situations, unless they change things up significantly.

This is exactly what I was thinking but during the last test the other shadow priest in the raid was pulling significantly more damage on the adds by spamming VT while I was trying to put as many SWPs as I can, focus adds with VT/MB and game Torrent, just as you described. There were no assignments (FFA), we had the same talents (including AS) and the same number of sockets, but he had significantly more haste (11k vs 7,5k) and less other stats. Previously we were very close on single target. This got me thinking. Was it due to spells or due to gear? Unfortunately I can't post the logs since they are private.

[Isentropy]

It can have to do with a lot of things. Voidform timing, how many stacks, different stats, unluckiness, player skill. It's hard to determine what could exactly cause the disparity, even with logs, because nobody knows a whole lot yet when it comes to theorycrafting. My gut feeling and personal experience tells me that there's no way Vampiric Touch can single handedly outdamage Shadow Word: Pain + Sphere + AS/SI procs under equal circumstances, especially not when the timeframe you're describing barely covers the duration of one Vampiric Touch.

[Koire]

Thank you for the reply.

Edit: If some adds die in less than 10 seconds, but some would live for as long as 30, does that change anything?

[Kaesebrezen]

If a talentless VT outdamages SW:P + Sphere + AS, then there'd be a massive problem. Well, there's a problem either way. Either VT sucks, or SW:P and all associated mechanics with it suck.

Still very well in the realm of possibility that VT comes ahead of SW:P, even including AS and Sphere. It's just that much stronger.

As long as VT runs it's full duration, and it has higher damage than SW:P, it will see much more benefit from haste and mastery than SW:P ever will. You will ultimately get much more worth of your single GCD of VT, then you'd ever get from SW:P.
Haste does it's part, as it lets VT break even much earlier with SW:P, mastery is better for VT, as VT has higher base damage to begin with.

Just do some pen and paper math and compare a GCD worth of VT vs a GCD worth of SW:P at 20 and 50% haste. It's somewhere at the range of an additional 150% SP per GCD, ignoring mastery.

SW:P needs to deal either more damage, or it's duration has to go back up to 18 seconds for it to ever be worth it.

[Watchmeblock]

Is destro too strong right now or just have better defenses?

It's Cobrak playing ur Destro. He just have an amazing skill, u just can't compare his performance with some regular player.

[Purple]

It would have been really cool to have a spell/something where we use the books to cast. Like Scholars/Summoners do in FFXIV.

I remember trying out another MMO with a tome weapon as well. I don't believe it was used in casting, but it had this neat auto attack where the caster would open the book, and flick a page out of it that would turn into a magic missile and go flying at the enemy. Probably one of the more original attack animations I've ever seen in a game.

...Guild Wars?

I still really enjoy the original Guild Wars. Too bad it's rather barren these days. Factions being my favorite of its campaigns, I'd be hard pressed to dislike anything pulling from that school of thought (though I don't really think that's the case here).

Nice whisper, damn. I dunno but I really feel like in the end, our "dagger" will betray us or something... and we'll be the reason why the Void Lord will come.

That's not really surprising, the basic concept, as I understand it, guarantees it will always betray its wielder. It's one the reason that you cannot necessarily believe everything it's whispering to you. It's the sort of things that laces truth with lies, and slips outright lies in when least expecting them.

See what a planet corrupted by old gods looks like =O O.O

Glorious. I mean, how horrible.

So, how do you guys think, would this be a good replacement for shadow crash? http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=2169...evouring-force

I like the flavor of it, but the damage and range would need hugely tuned down.

Shadow Crash doesn't need a replacement, it needs higher numbers or a shorter cooldown. It is meant to sacrifice single target damage for some burst multi target damage.

I disagree entirely. I don't really care the specifics of what it's replaced with, as long as it is replaced with something visually/thematically fitting and useful/viable.

Shadow Crash isn't a Priest spell or a Shadow Priest spell, it's a Warlock spell at best, much like Mind Spike, it's something from another class or spec or game that's found it's way over to us as a sad hand me down no one else wanted. That slow projectile, sad damage and cooldown, as well as its graphic that doesn't fit with the new void theme? There's not really a single thing I like about it, even if the speed were increased, the damage better tuned and the cooldown reduced, I'd still prefer something more void themed.

I certainly don't speak for everyone on Shadow Crash, or anything else, but just like Mind Spike, I'd rather it go away, and stay gone.

-

On another note, or somewhat related, since this is mostly about magic type/school and visuals more than actual functions of abilities..

The new themes of Shadow as a Void Priest has such rich visual themes to pull from, it's sad to see things like Shadow Crash still shoved off on us, and so many of our old abilities ignoring those concepts on a visual level. Blizzard have a great opportunity here, and, for myself, the greatest proof that they still have no idea what to do with us is the fact that they won't even go full in on the visuals and themes they've presented us with.

This extends to things like our Power Word: Shield. It's nice to have something not Shadow school to use in pvp, to help us deal with lock outs, but at this point there's no reason it should still look like it does or be called what it is. The Shadow Frost concept of Mind Spike is a key element here, one of the few positives of Mind Spike, and it should be present in far more of our abilities. Our PW Shield is an example of this, for my money, where it should be converted in school and visual to this creeping, lovecraftian death concept. Shadow and Frost.

Where already pulling away from Holy is most regards. Why not make the final break? Even our heal isn't Holy school now. Why is our defensive shield? Even when the abilities function the same as their holy counterparts their school and visuals should be updated to fit that shadow/frost lovecraftian void priest concept.

Obviously, this is just me, but in my view we're already making the break. I'd like to see the break be complete.

That said, I am in favor of the people asking for more visual glyphs (Sha stuff, Raven stuff, etc), since I do understand, for many, the visuals are a very important part of Shadow, for some just as important as the gameplay. I can understand this as I've read a lot of posts over the years, from people who started playing a Shadow Priest for the Shadow Form visual. Visual themes are something I see Shadow Priests talk about a lot, so it's hard to deny their importance to a portion of the community, even if specific preferences do not match up to my own.

[Awbee]

Oh, another question. Does Shadow still have access to the feathers?

[Aeriel]

A few things: Mind Spike was originally added to replace a quick damage spell (Mana Burn), and give a requested utility (DoT extinguish). However, those uses really no longer apply. I've asked for Mind Spike as baseline so that it vs MF is damage (MF) vs insanity generation(MSp). Then there is a playstyle choice with it that is missing from the talent.

Shadow Crash is a Void based ability. It is originally from the Faceless Ones, which are Old God creations. Homestly it does fit with the new Void theme. It just needs a lot of work. (Higher damage, faster speed, and/or lower cooldown)

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, another question. Does Shadow still have access to the feathers?

No. That has been removed. Holy and Disc has it. We get Mania speed based on Insanity level.

[Ilir]

@Purple : the game you're reffering to is Aion. Aion also have some cool animations with the bard class.

[Isentropy]

Shadow Crash is an iconic spell used by Faceless Ones, most notably by General Vezax in Ulduar. You can argue about its practical use, but it's very fitting thematically.

[Chantique]

I don't know if Nerity is a poster here but i thanks him in advance for the feedback he provided on the alpha forums and i'm bringing his post here so we can discuss Shadow Crash too.

So, I did some Raid testing on Mythic Skorpyron today, which I believe is a fair example of a real-time AoE dps fight. Here's my story:

I went with this setup, because I assume it would be the best AoE setup for something spawning 5+ adds constantly, with one target always staying alive:

15: ToF
30: B&S
45: Mind Bomb
60: Reaper of Souls
75: AS (scaled up, I was around 29% crit)
90: Shadow Crash (it might be good. Right?)
100: LoTV (STM isn't good on this long of a fight, and Mind Spike is more of a dead talent than void entropy)

___

Just as a fun thing to know: In scaled 898 gear, Shadow Crash averages around 285-300k damage per target

But, Shadow Crash has a huge problem: You can't get a high amount of Voidform stacks; so you're sacrificing your dot damage.

Adding in the delay it takes to hit, ontop of the long CD, it's really not that powerful. My Go-To AoE talent was around 7% of my damage, and it made my DPS around 365-385K.

I wanted SHadow Crash to work, but at this point I'm barely doing more than I did in heroic testing for single target, so I had to drop the talent.
___

Then, I swapped up my talents, I traded Shadow Crash for Mindbender. Which gives me more insanity generation, increasing Sphere of Insanity, and my dots damage. Because this is a more single target based spec, I would normally sit on Skorpyron using my abilities as much as possible on him (ignoring the 25% DR)

I tried to still focus on AoE, because you know, this should be a decent AoE spec since I'm choosing what I believe to be the best AoE setup.

Putting SW:P on as many targets as I can, while still using VB/MB on Cooldown put me at around 350-400K DPS. Turns out, I found out that Sphere of Insanity has a huge DR on its effectiveness. so I had to use a new strat.

___

Then, after 3 pulls, I decided to harshly limit the amount of targets I'd SW:P, if there's more than like 5 targets, I would ignore the rest (aside from the obvious mouseover SW: Death macro to gain insanity). Unless, of course, I had Void Torrent coming off CD, I would apply it on around 8 targets, then VT into something to get a huge return on Sphere.

The only reason I had SW:P out on targets was to force AS to generate more insanity, to increase my single target. It had absolutely nothing to do with AoE damage. I only spammed my mouseover SW: Death macro, because it would generate 30 insanity whenever SW: Death was up, which is the highest insanity generation in the game.

Now, my damage would go anywhere between 425-500K DPS, by sitting on SKorpyron as much as possible.
Which feels like what it would be on any other boss for testing, if I was sitting at 898 iLv.

I was doing around 360K to Skorpyron alone, and the other adds were taking around 130K damage per second purely from SW:P, AS, SW: Death, and Sphere of Insanity. Over 50% of my damage was purely a side effect of me just trying to single target as much as possible. (effective DPS was around 50k/50k/13K, but the time they were alive was around 130k damage taken per second each).

Once I found my realistic SW:P cap was around 5 targets normally, I found myself feeling worse and worse when I saw 6, 8, 10, 15, 20 adds out, because I knew that I couldn't contribute.


Why is it the less I try to AoE, in my AoE talents, the more damage I do?

Seriously, don't make me have to grind a legendary, just to have AoE. It feels terrible, and the ring is so powerful that it WILL drastically increase my damage on a majority of the fights to the point where I'm going to need it.

Based on the feedback he provided, imo shadow crash should have a lower CD and hit more than 5 targets. Or at the very last have more than 1 charge. Also, i think it should generate insanity on cast, since as it is right now, is a dps loss because it lowers your VF stacks.

[Yvaelle]

It's a good post that the devs are likely to respond to, but it doesn't mean Shadow Crash is bad. Shadow Crash is awesome (visually, at least), it just needs to be better. .

A 30 second cooldown is about right (for feel), but it needs to hit like a train. It could probably stand to have its damage doubled or more.

Currently it is 400% of SP, by comparison, the Frost Mage spell Comet Storm is also an instant cast 30 second cooldown spell, and it deals 700% of SP: nearly double that of Shadow Crash - and it hits ~instantly, where Shadow Crash is very hard to land optimally. Fire Mages have Meteor which deals 562% + 150% over 8 seconds, again it's ~700% of SP - nearly double Shadow Crash. Destruction's similar AOE spell, Cataclysm, also hits for 700% of SP (it has a 3 second cast, but it also applies DoTs to all targets hit, so I call that a wash).

Shadow Crash needs to probably hit for like 1000% of SP, due to the lack of other Shadow interactions (DoT applications for Cataclysm, chill for Frost spells, DoTs for Fire combustion), if all Shadow Crash is to us is damage, and if it's going to be the hardest spell to land, and it's going to bear a large portion of our AOE capability - it needs to be lethal.

[Kretan]

Yeah that's a good post on how shit shadow crash is especially.

I wonder if when he refers to a serious DR cap on sphere he is referring to dot duration or an actual mathematical DR.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a good post that the devs are likely to respond to, but it doesn't mean Shadow Crash is bad. Shadow Crash is awesome (visually, at least), it just needs to be better. .

A 30 second cooldown is about right (for feel), but it needs to hit like a train. It could probably stand to have its damage doubled or more.

Currently it is 400% of SP, by comparison, the Frost Mage spell Comet Storm is also an instant cast 30 second cooldown spell, and it deals 700% of SP: nearly double that of Shadow Crash - and it hits ~instantly, where Shadow Crash is very hard to land optimally. Fire Mages have Meteor which deals 562% + 150% over 8 seconds, again it's ~700% of SP - nearly double Shadow Crash. Destruction's similar AOE spell, Cataclysm, also hits for 700% of SP (it has a 3 second cast, but it also applies DoTs to all targets hit, so I call that a wash).

Shadow Crash needs to probably hit for like 1000% of SP, due to the lack of other Shadow interactions (DoT applications for Cataclysm, chill for Frost spells, DoTs for Fire combustion), if all Shadow Crash is to us is damage, and if it's going to be the hardest spell to land, and it's going to bear a large portion of our AOE capability - it needs to be lethal.

You also have to remember that mage spells are meteor style in that they split damage. On two targets shadowcrash will out damage the mage spells, but fall short of cataclysm.

[Ilir]

yeah that post Nerity made explains exactly how I feel/what I do in Legion atm.

Let's hope Celestalon will answer.

[Aeriel]

You also have to remember that mage spells are meteor style in that they split damage. On two targets shadowcrash will out damage the mage spells, but fall short of cataclysm.

If Shadow Crash meteored, generated insanity per target, and did 1000% SP, then that may make it work as an AoE/ST talent. Though Mindbender will still likely win in ST.

[KrakHed]

Some more random and not-so-random Xal Quotes:

Awesome! Do you know what triggered the more specific ones?

[Purple]

A few things: Mind Spike was originally added to replace a quick damage spell

This is pointless as a talent, and never should be in a position to replace Mind Flay. Anything that Mind Spike did, that was actually useful (Shadow/Frost school, empowering Mind Blast, etc as examples) should just have been rolled into Mind Flay. As a base line ability is makes some sense, but in the current mechanics where it wouldn't cost Mana you couldn't add on the function of it being too expensive to use in long encounters. It needs that high mana cost to force its use only in short, quick, fights, a short spike of damage (hence, mind spike).

and give a requested utility (DoT extinguish).

This never should have been on a damage spell, since the general reason you want to end DoTs is because you need to stop doing damage to "thing" as an encounter mechanic of one sort or another. It is a thing we needed, and, in my opinion, still need, but having it tied to a damage ability was and still would be ridiculous.

However, those uses really no longer apply. I've asked for Mind Spike as baseline so that it vs MF is damage (MF) vs insanity generation(MSp). Then there is a playstyle choice with it that is missing from the talent.

If you just want it to replace Mind Flay as our main damage filler, then, all I can say is there are plenty of nuke spam classes/spec in this game already. I didn't roll Shadow to play another nuke spam spec. I have no interest in that brand of nonsense. I want to play a Shadow Priest, not a nuke spamming Shadow Mage. The idea of separation based on damage versus insanity (mind spike/mind flay) fillers doesn't interest me either.

Mind Spike is trash, always has been trash, at best, or getting in the way of proper changes to our class at the worst. I tend toward the, "it's trash" school of thought, and that's where it belongs in my opinion. Roll what few useful aspects it has into Mind Flay. The rest, throw out.

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In regard to Shadow Crash, I've yet to hear anything that changes my mind. Mechanically it has no place. Thematically it still looks and feels like a Warlock throw away that we've been saddled with, I don't care what has used in content. That's what it comes off as to me. That's what it looks like. It looks as off for the faceless ones to use it as it looks for us to use it. Again, that's me, I don't pretend anyone here agrees with me, but that's what it always has and always will look like from my view.

I much prefer Sphere as a concept for AoE, but, unfortunately, in its current implementation, I've heard some rather discouraging things about its effectiveness, simply due to the issues of keeping the pain DoT up on multiple enemies. The concept itself seems sound, so I imagine, at this point, people either talk about a rework of Sphere at a base or think about ways to spread pain around more easily and gripe about the legendary some more, not without some justification.

Whatever I think of Shadow Crash or Sphere, one thing I still see when looking at our AoE situation is that it needs tons more work. It's not in a good place.

[Awbee]

No. That has been removed. Holy and Disc has it. We get Mania speed based on Insanity level.

How good is Mania speed? How often are we at a high insanity level? The feathers meant that you could very quickly run through old raids and instances, or catch up after a wipe in a dungeon or raid, and it helped during questing in caves etc. Does Mania offer a similar level of convenient speed?