1. #4641
    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    What was wrong with nagrand and gorgrond? quest flow was good and zones progressed quickly?
    They were an utter pain in the ass to traverse, with all the hills, cliffs etc., and losing a lot of time trying to just find the way to where I wanted to get. I'm talking about max level/endgame here, where there was still stuff to go to in the world - f.ex. trees for garrison's Lumber Mill, doing the quest for level 3 (finding those specific trees to cut down or something) was bloody annoying because of that, and what made me look into optimising the garrison so that I don't have to bother with doing that anymore (Inn->Scavengers->resources from missions, screw you and your trees, Lumber Mill).

    If they really wanted to create the world with ground experience in mind, they should have decided that early enough (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here, that they really couldn't make up their mind on how to handle flying, as opposed to just deciding to lie to players to get the pro-flight crowd to buy WoD and stay subbed because "it might yet return"), and build it appropriately* - I never had this sort of issues levelling 1-60, either pre or post Cataclysm, since those zones were built for the ground experience,

    *And come clean, telling players what's it gonna be, before we could even preorder WoD. See, what I'm pissed about with blizzard isn't just the removal of flight. If they would make up their mind, tell us before WoD preorders started, that flight won't be in, etc., I probably wouldn't buy it, and just quit. Not being happy about their decision, but regardless, that'd be fair on their part (Mostly? I wouldn't be happy about cash store flying mounts not working as they should in new content, but still - that'd be at least more fair than what they did or tried to do).
    However, they were either unable or unwilling (because that'd hurt sales and subs) to do that, and as a result, they not only have pissed off (possibly ex-) customers on their hands, but also their word about anything is worth squat. Null, nothing, zero.
    And that trust will be hard to earn back, if it's possible at all.
    (that's why I refuse to buy Legion until flying is actually in on terms I'll find acceptable, I just don't trust their word about it, and with a good reason)
    Last edited by Demoneq; 2016-04-27 at 09:50 AM.

  2. #4642
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoneq View Post
    After the colossal screw up that WoD is, and the possibility, that they indeed created zones like Gorgrond and Nagrand with ground travel -only- in mind, I'm not so sure about that (elaborating: if anyone really thought the exercise in frustration, that those zones are, will be entertaining for players, then that person or people is/are an utter moron(s), and should never again be allowed to work in any sort of gaming industry, video games or otherwise).
    I said they weren't stupid, not that they were infallible. I don't think even Blizzard would try to deny that mistakes were made with WoD. I'm just saying that, generally speaking, Blizzard tends to learn from their mistakes. Although they've obviously also been known to learn the wrong things from their mistakes too(garrisons, shaman for the first 5 years or so, over-focus on raiding to the detriment of all else, and of course, removing flight).

  3. #4643
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    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticGamer View Post
    Honestly, I think the best idea is mine. :-)
    Ultimately, the "best" idea doesn't matter.

    The point is that there are multiple ideas that meet the stated design goals of the game, without disallowing flight for a completely arbitrary period of time in order to string players along.

    That's what is frustrating players. There's no good reason for disallowing flight, but it's going to happen anyway... Just because. That forces people to conclude that it's a question of pacing, and given that mission tables are making a return, it's hard to argue that any fears aren't justified.

  4. #4644
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    SNIP...

    Don't you have designs like that already now that flight is in WoD? Don't misunderstand me, I'm not arguing the design of WoD being great or horrible, but with the Apexis zones, you have ways to go in on the ground, and now that flight is out you have ways to go in from the air. Or are you wanting more for WoW to become like a flight sim?
    I want blizzard to show me they are trying to expand the game and not hinder it with ground travel only once gamers get to max level. I want them to incorporate flying into the max level world. I'd like to see quests and areas designed with flight in mind. Some areas harder to navigate and some easier through design and mob encounters. Mobs that dismount, anti air devices that pull you in and capture you (stun like affect for more important areas). Mobs or devices that tie you to one spot or limit your movement like a tether. Sky really is the limit on creation of these mobs and areas if their willing. Sadly they are not all that interested in creating a more immersive world. blizzard would rather just say no flying on that flying dragon or no flying in that helicopter because that garbage is easy to implement and takes little effort.

    WTF does flight sim have to do with it? I'm not asking for a cockpit view with dials and switches. I'm asking for a TBC or WotLK effort or better. Not a cop out with flying toy mimics and an over use of forced ground travel well past it's life cycle.

    Here's your quest, now choose to deploy by land and fight thru or go by air while executing extreme aerodynamics (do a barrel roll!) while on an on rails path into the keep? Cuz yeah, that sounds awesome, but it also sounds like a lot more design and development time, and with so far between xpacs even this would become stale at some point and we'd be right back where players are complaining about content drought.
    Flying was never the stale point in TBC or WotLK. Having flying all the time in cataclysm didn't make that expansion stale nor was it the cause of why it sucked. Similar for MoP and WoD. Flying is the scapegoat for blizzards lack of interesting design and forced ground travel for much to long of a time. They created a world to fly in and then said no flying as they continued to sell you flying mount and present them as rewards. IT doesn't have to be a flight sim but it sure as hell doesn't have to be an equestrian sim either.

  5. #4645
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    You're confusing what that said with what they did. There's nothing in WoD that would be hurt by flight. NOTHING. There's no content that they did because, now that players can't fly they can do X. IN fact, there was less open world content in WoD that in MoP, Cata, LK, etc.
    Well there's 12 areas dedicated to max level questing, over 200 treasures to collect, over 170 rares to kill and a smattering of garrison related activities including companions to find, mounts to tame and waygates to activate. Are you confusing "things you don't like" with "things that don't exist?"

  6. #4646
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    This argument never goes anywhere. The plebs who cry "Immersion!" whenever they get dismounted trying to make it from point A to point B on their shitty ground mounts are still and forever will be perfectly happy trying to ruin things for those of us who want to take to the skies whenever we please. They want us to play the game the way they want to play the game and are constitutionally immune to reason and logic.

  7. #4647
    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    5 million people didnt stop their sub because of flying mounts.
    Keep telling yourself that.

    Perhaps some day you will even believe that.

    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    They already said flying would be in legion, your point?
    Being there when there is no more content to use it in is the same as not having it.

    Not acceptable for me, many of the pro-flight players, and is a dick move that will guarantee that many of the (at least) 5 million players who left in WoD Won´t come back.

    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    A tire business doesnt need to take up spray coating just because customers want them to.
    if over half of its customers demand spray coating, then it needs to. Unless it prefers bankrupcy. Try harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    Feedback doesn't include an expectation
    Bullshit. Expectation is the whole reason why feedback even exists.




    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    "IF YOU DONT DO THIS, THEN IM GOING TO DO THAT" is an ultimatum.
    Nice strawman you build there. Allow me to fix it for you, before you are accused of not being truthful:

    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    "IF YOUR PRODUCT DOES NOT MEET MY REQUIREMENTS, I WON´T BUY IT" is the prerrogative of all consumers.
    Much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    I never said you dont have a choice in where to spend your money. That is entirely up to you.
    When you try to distort truth, pretending that a consumer/customer prerrogative is an ultimatum, you are trying to shame said consumer into doing, or occasionally not doing, something other than he intends to.

    So no, your statement above is also false.

    Edit:

    P.S: I almost forgot: I´m STILL waiting for ONE place in the ENTIRE world where a consumer making use of his prerrogative of spending his money where he wants for whatever reason he wants is considered an ultimatum.
    Last edited by Connll; 2016-04-27 at 02:39 PM.

  8. #4648
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Dammit I wish I wasn't at work. These posts deserve better than I can give while typing on my phone during break.

    I will shorthand: You guys are right when you say that 3 months from launch is too short of a time to make significant changes to the fundamental nature of the flying mechanics. But remember that this argument has been going on since WoD beta, at the very least.

    Regardless, I should personally be more clear about the scope of my individual posts. At this point in time I think the best fliers can realistically hope for is a pathfinder style unlock that can be completed in 7.1. There's a tiny chance that the unlock includes a Green-fire style quest as well.



    While I'm obviously not 100% OK with that, I think even I would grudgingly accept it depending on how much more content was left in the expansion for flight to be used on, and what level of quality we see out of the live 7.0 content. If 7.1 and beyond is just a pile of no-fly islands, or the unlock contains a bunch of time-gated nonsense like the epic ring/cloak, then Blizzard can shove Legion where the sun don't shine.
    This argument started before the WoD Alpha. Blizz is simply being lazy and are hoping another backlash doesn't happen in Legion...they are acting childish hoping the big momma bear is not going to notice the kids have their hand in the cookie jar again...

    The backlash will be more stronger in Legion than it was in WoD, more sudden, and within the first three months of the expansion. If they are hoping players will not raise a firestorm till 6 months later then they are the epitome of incompetent fools.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    I want blizzard to show me they are trying to expand the game and not hinder it with ground travel only once gamers get to max level. I want them to incorporate flying into the max level world. I'd like to see quests and areas designed with flight in mind. Some areas harder to navigate and some easier through design and mob encounters. Mobs that dismount, anti air devices that pull you in and capture you (stun like affect for more important areas). Mobs or devices that tie you to one spot or limit your movement like a tether. Sky really is the limit on creation of these mobs and areas if their willing. Sadly they are not all that interested in creating a more immersive world. blizzard would rather just say no flying on that flying dragon or no flying in that helicopter because that garbage is easy to implement and takes little effort.

    WTF does flight sim have to do with it? I'm not asking for a cockpit view with dials and switches. I'm asking for a TBC or WotLK effort or better. Not a cop out with flying toy mimics and an over use of forced ground travel well past it's life cycle.



    Flying was never the stale point in TBC or WotLK. Having flying all the time in cataclysm didn't make that expansion stale nor was it the cause of why it sucked. Similar for MoP and WoD. Flying is the scapegoat for blizzards lack of interesting design and forced ground travel for much to long of a time. They created a world to fly in and then said no flying as they continued to sell you flying mount and present them as rewards. IT doesn't have to be a flight sim but it sure as hell doesn't have to be an equestrian sim either.
    Legion is simply a copy pasta of WoD design thrown in with some paint. World objectives are simply bonus apexis quests that you fill a bar which is not interesting at all.

  9. #4649
    why this serious a discussion? they said we get flying like wod did.

  10. #4650
    Quote Originally Posted by Fieranda View Post
    why this serious a discussion? they said we get flying like wod did.
    That is unacceptable as they said there would be a meta you can start to work on at launch of Legion but no sign of meta thus far. They have three months left to put in the meta but they obviously care more about raid testing which they have been doing since November of 2015 on the alpha.

  11. #4651
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    That is unacceptable as they said there would be a meta you can start to work on at launch of Legion but no sign of meta thus far. They have three months left to put in the meta but they obviously care more about raid testing which they have been doing since November of 2015 on the alpha.
    its alpha stop complainign spoiled brat and maybe complain when legion is released.

  12. #4652
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    That is unacceptable as they said there would be a meta you can start to work on at launch of Legion but no sign of meta thus far. They have three months left to put in the meta but they obviously care more about raid testing which they have been doing since November of 2015 on the alpha.
    When we get new zones we don't even get the achievements for them for multiple builds (the base quest achievements)

    Until maybe 2-3 weeks ago all rep items were linked to klaxxi rather than their actual reps.

    Basically, the pieces for the pathfinder achievement arent in alpha so why would the achievement be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  13. #4653
    Quote Originally Posted by Fieranda View Post
    its alpha stop complainign spoiled brat and maybe complain when legion is released.
    Who said it (obtaining flying via meta that will complete god knows when / not in the first patch for sure) will change from alpha to release?

  14. #4654
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    Point and click bombing runs were not exciting. I didnt mind one in ogrila for example, those and the simon says games were interesting additions, but i wouldnt want them to be the core quests.
    I surely had more fun with such quests than with WoD treasures because Jump & Run is simply BAD in WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Nothing in WoD would be hurt by flight, except the fact that Blizzard designed content to be ground based. The main point is that unlike previous xpacs with flight, WoD was the first designed where you didn't have to have it. I've never said flying would hurt it, I quoted what Blizzard stated that it would trivialize it. When a game is designed to be completely accessible without something, and then something is introduced that negates the way that world was designed, that trivializes it.
    I'm not refusing to admit nothing. I know you don't want a compromise, but that's kind of where all of your frustration is coming from. Legion, in the vein of WoD, will not have flight at launch and is, again, completely not necessary. Therefore there is no obligation or even need for Blizzard to put it in game at max level or even soon after launch. To get them to do that, you WILL need to compromise to get what you want. The compromises are things to take to Blizzard in ways to convince them to include flight sooner. You compromise by giving up free landing wherever (in this case, and a very small price to pay), and Blizz compromises by giving you flight sooner.
    The fact you are so unwilling to attempt a compromise and demand something from the other party when there is no reason to, is not only absurd, but just the playerbase being pigheaded in their views. Yes, I'm willing to agree Blizz is pigheaded in their design, but here's the problem with the comparison, THEY get to design the game.
    The thing is, I have never complained about outdoor content being too easy with flying. I usually did most of the content while leveling on my first character on the ground, and after I was max level, I got a shiny new max level talent, gear upgrades etc. and these were trivialising the content much more than the odd case where I could directly go to the "boss" of the quest.

    Seriously, Blizzard developers are either dumb or lazy. There are many ways to get people to stay on the ground / to follow the intended questing path - they just don't consider to do this. And even if people find ways to stray from the path? So what? The devs make the game so gamers can have fun, and if you only can have fun without flying, then DON'T FLY. It's simple as that. I have been practising such self-restrictions many, many times in this game because I wanted to - like questing as a holy priest or resto druid or holy paladin in Classic because I had the healer concept for my characters. Why should some people suffer for the lack of self-restraint of others?

  15. #4655
    Quote Originally Posted by Fieranda View Post
    its alpha stop complainign spoiled brat and maybe complain when legion is released.
    Three months left till launch. Complain now.

  16. #4656
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Three months left till launch. Complain now.
    Spoiler alert, the Meta achievement will require reputations and discovering the entire map, thus you can already start working on it.

    If you are going to complain about something as trivial as a meta achievement, maybe you should just not purchase Legion and move along.
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  17. #4657
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    Spoiler alert, the Meta achievement will require reputations and discovering the entire map, thus you can already start working on it.

    If you are going to complain about something as trivial as a meta achievement, maybe you should just not purchase Legion and move along.
    No one knows what the meta achievement entails until Blizzard finds the courage to put it on alpha. If it can't be tested, and we don't know the exact parameters of the meta then as far as I am concerned the meta DOESN"T exist.

  18. #4658
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    No one knows what the meta achievement entails until Blizzard finds the courage to put it on alpha. If it can't be tested, and we don't know the exact parameters of the meta then as far as I am concerned the meta DOESN"T exist.
    The meta will obviously exist. Blizzard understands people's need for flying, for whatever reason. Honestly the way they are doing is a great compromise, at least in my opinion.

    Having flying out the gate just trivializes everything. Having to actually play and earn flying seems like the right thing to do. And this is coming from someone who would rather have ZERO flying at all.

  19. #4659
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    If you are going to complain about something as trivial as a meta achievement, maybe you should just not purchase Legion and move along.
    May I complain about the date on which I will be able to complete it, which is currently unknown and in all likelihood is far into Legion?

  20. #4660
    Quote Originally Posted by Fieranda View Post
    its alpha stop complainign spoiled brat and maybe complain when legion is released.
    Sure, that worked so well for WoD.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

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