[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Ilir]

How good is Mania speed? How often are we at a high insanity level? The feathers meant that you could very quickly run through old raids and instances, or catch up after a wipe in a dungeon or raid, and it helped during questing in caves etc. Does Mania offer a similar level of convenient speed?

if you have 100 insanity (max), you get a 20% speed boost. I don't think it's really good to be honest unless you're specced into Surrender to Madness.

Tho you can use power word : shield more often now (i think).

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Oh Shadowfiend feels so useless if not talented... I spec into mindbender only because I hate Shadowfiend so much.

[Purple]

@Purple : the game you're reffering to is Aion. Aion also have some cool animations with the bard class.

That would be the one. Very neat little animation with the book. It shows you can make anything interesting as a weapon in fantasy, if you have the imagination to do so.

if you have 100 insanity (max), you get a 50% speed boost. Mania speed boost equals half of your current insanity. I don't think it's really good to be honest unless you're specced into Surrender to Madness.

Tho you can use power word : shield more often now (i think).

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Oh Shadowfiend feels so useless if not talented... I spec into mindbender only because I hate Shadowfiend so much.

I just generally like Mind Bender quite a bit at a base, even discounting your note on Shadowfiend. That said, nothing else in Mind Bender's tier really seems worth taking, so there's that.

Then again, that's still better than the level 100 tier, in which I dislike.. all of the talents.

[Naga Coatl]

if you have 100 insanity (max), you get a 50% speed boost.

Isn't it 20%?

[Ilir]

Oh you are right my bad. It's 20% at 100 insanity. Dunno where I got that 1% speed boost every 2 insanity from O.O

[Aeriel]

@Purple. We're not trying to argue. You clearly are very adamant about your opinions. No one has argued that MSpike isn't shit tier for a talent, but I was putting a historical basis on why it was originally implemented. The playstyle choice wasn't about "replacing MF" it was about playing with the VF stacks. Admittedly the spec is complicated enough without that.

You do not like Shadow Crash. Fine. Neither do I, but it is an Old God ability and does fit the rework. I would rather that AoE be based around our pre-existing spells, but it is what it is.

In short: please take a step back and try not to be so confrontational. It isn't necessary. Most of your arguments are ones that most people agree with.

[Ayanamii]

If you just want it to replace Mind Flay as our main damage filler, then, all I can say is there are plenty of nuke spam classes/spec in this game already. I didn't roll Shadow to play another nuke spam spec. I have no interest in that brand of nonsense. I want to play a Shadow Priest, not a nuke spamming Shadow Mage.

This is a prime example of personal preference. I, for one, would love a "nuke spamming Shadow Mage." Just the concept sounds amazing to me. This is something you and I will differ greatly on. Your perspective is perfectly valid, however, so is mine. I originally switched to Shadow since our guild had too many healers, and Shadow offered the most utility (i.e. mana battery, raid-wide healing). Since it seems they are trying to make Shadow a "pure" dps spec, I like the idea of the Shadow Mage concept.

If you ask me, that was what CoP was supposed to be in WoD. Some people did not like CoP, I personally did. It felt nice to actually contribute to single target damage while having the option to be the multi-dot AS spec (although, the damage difference could have been addressed a little better). If they made a way for Shadow Priests to have a Mind Spike spec and a dot spec, a single target and multi target respectively play style, I would be in bliss. Ideally, this would be two separate specs where Priests would have 4 options, 2 for healing, 2 for damage (caster druid equivalent).

[Ilir]

New build tonight. I wish they will implement the legendaries this patch or at least level 110 premade pve char (only because I think it's kinda sad to test raid boss/dungeon with people having broken gear or not equivalent artifact power.)

Also hope they'll fix what's broken with some classes (like DH chaos blade/anihilation spells) to have a better representation of the dps.

[Kilee25]

I was going to reply to Purple, but some people beat me to it.

I have greatly enjoyed CoP as a play style in WoD, and I would have loved to see some design similarity carried forward. I have enjoyed most of the versions of Mind Spike through the various expansions, and I felt that there was originally a good need for the spell in both PVE and PVP.

I agree that the spell as it is currently in Legion doesn't seem to have a solid foundation, and it seems like nothing more than a token throwback. Functionally it doesn't seem any different than MF since it doesn't change enough about our casting behavior to warrant the name or the talent.

Anyway, basically what I wanted to say is.. thank you for your opinion.

[Naga Coatl]

The problem is that while loving CoP or not is a matter of opinions, people get angry over it because it was somewhat forced. Many of use chose a Shadow Priest for its visuals (Shadowform) and for its dot-based/channeling gameplay that differed from the more common nuke caster type.

Year after year, they seem to reduce DoT damage and put emphasis on the 'nuke' aspect, changing the old basis of the class. It's quite normal to see people disagree with this I think, and to an extent I agree with phrases like "If you want a nuke spammer you should play another class". I have total respect for different tastes, but I don't like the fact that the class is being changed so much from its origin because it's not what I chose years ago. CoP was 'forced' because it was/is the best instead of a 'weaker, simpler, spammier alternative' as many thought it would have been, shadowform-mount now requires a glyph, out of combat shadowform is being forcefully 'glyphed' in Legion, and so on.

I feel like they are (slowly?) turning shadow in something else catering to 'new tastes', not returning it to its origins, and I don't like it.

[Purple]

@PurpleI was putting a historical basis on why it was originally implemented

Historical basis doesn't change the fact that even then the dot wipe functionality should never been on a damage ability, as the primary function of a dot wipe mechanic is to cease damage. I stay by my statements that the positive functions of Mind Spike (from various iterations) are better rolled into mind flay (shadow/frost, mind blast enhancement, etc). I also stand by that a dot wipe should just be its own, non-damaging, ability. When I need to stop all damage, I actually want to 'stop' said damage, not do more.

I don't think there's ever been a time that Mind Spike's implementation didn't annoy me, and that's certainly one aspect to it, even the things that it was meant to do never seemed implemented right.

The playstyle choice wasn't about "replacing MF" it was about playing with the VF stacks. Admittedly the spec is complicated enough without that.

You proposed MS as the damage filler and MF as the insanity pumping filler. I referenced this, and spoke on it as I did separately from what you seem to think was directed at it, right afterward in fact.

You do not like Shadow Crash. Fine. Neither do I, but it is an Old God ability and does fit the rework. I would rather that AoE be based around our pre-existing spells, but it is what it is.

As I already said, it doesn't fit, at all. I even referenced the fact that the nameless ones use it, and that it never even fit them, because, as I've stated multiple times now, it looks like a warlock throw away to me, not something related to the void or otherwise.

If you ask me, that was what CoP was supposed to be in WoD. Some people did not like CoP, I personally did. It felt nice to actually contribute to single target damage while having the option to be the multi-dot AS spec (although, the damage difference could have been addressed a little better). If they made a way for Shadow Priests to have a Mind Spike spec and a dot spec, a single target and multi target respectively play style, I would be in bliss. Ideally, this would be two separate specs where Priests would have 4 options, 2 for healing, 2 for damage (caster druid equivalent).

There is something of note here, and you sort of pointed out the core issue. There's a reason they eventually split feral into separate tank and dps specs, instead of continuing to crowd it all into one spec. There really isn't room for a Mind Spike centered build and a Mind Flay centered build in one spec. I've spoken on Mind Spike getting in the way of proper updates to the spec before, and this is sort of why. Both play styles need their room to grow and be built upon.

As long as they're stepping on each other's toes, that can't happen.

A Shadow Mage isn't the issue, turning a spec that wasn't a Shadow Mage, into a Shadow Mage, is.

[Gnarilex]

@Purple : the game you're reffering to is Aion. Aion also have some cool animations with the bard class.

My first thought was Royal Quest's mage. It's a hack and slash mmo that grinds to a halt once you hit lvl 20 and I wouldn't recommend it, but the combat was fun and the mage's basic attack involved holding a tome and flinging spells with your other hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WspvoX1_jQs

[Aeriel]

@Naga. I get your complaints. I haven't played at max level in WoD because of CoP. I just do not necessarily agree with how DoT oriented you want us to be. I would rather be more like this iteration than Aff locks. They almost exclusively DoTs now and it's like whack-a-mole. Now, I do think MF should be a little more forefront than basically falling out of your rotation. Fillers should be more central, but most classes play like that.

I like that the Legion version is kind of a mixed playstyle more similar to TBC. DoTs, direct nuke, and channeled.

[Gnarilex]

This is a prime example of personal preference. I, for one, would love a "nuke spamming Shadow Mage." Just the concept sounds amazing to me. This is something you and I will differ greatly on. Your perspective is perfectly valid, however, so is mine. I originally switched to Shadow since our guild had too many healers, and Shadow offered the most utility (i.e. mana battery, raid-wide healing). Since it seems they are trying to make Shadow a "pure" dps spec, I like the idea of the Shadow Mage concept.

If you ask me, that was what CoP was supposed to be in WoD. Some people did not like CoP, I personally did. It felt nice to actually contribute to single target damage while having the option to be the multi-dot AS spec (although, the damage difference could have been addressed a little better). If they made a way for Shadow Priests to have a Mind Spike spec and a dot spec, a single target and multi target respectively play style, I would be in bliss. Ideally, this would be two separate specs where Priests would have 4 options, 2 for healing, 2 for damage (caster druid equivalent).

I'd love to have an option for the filler spell to be a cast and not a channel. The head beam doesn't do it for me. I think they could get away with it being a cosmetic glyph if it ended up doing the same damage as mind flay. Although from what I've seen that spell is hardly used in Legion so maybe I won't have to worry about that.

[Aeriel]

Ok. I tried. Next topic.

[Gnarilex]

Also I'd like to point out to @Purple mindspike has a completely different functionality in Legion. Still useless compared to LotV and StM, but it doesn't function the same.

[Naga Coatl]

I get your complaints. I haven't played at max level in WoD because of CoP. I just do not necessarily agree with how DoT oriented you want us to be. I would rather be more like this iteration than Aff locks. They almost exclusively DoTs now and it's like whack-a-mole. Now, I do think MF should be a little more forefront than basically falling out of your rotation. Fillers should be more central, but most classes play like that.

Well, I never said 'full dots' or something like that - I've said 'about/at least 50%' like we were during Cata would be a good target for my tastes, with adequate mechanics to support it.

In my opinion, a dot spec should at the very least:

- Have dots as the main (~50%+) source of damage not only in the 'multidot heaven' scenario
- Have dots with high priority instead of being only above the filler | You don't want them to fall off, you want to delay other spells a bit for them, you want to use them on mobs - but you DO have other meaningful non-dot spells
- Be able to multidot freely

How to balance this? I don't know, but I don't think it would be impossbile/unfun/horrible by definition as many seem to think. I mean, I think Legion's SP would have appeared absurd a year ago. It's counterintuitive/complex in many aspects, yet many find it extremely funny and strive to get it prefectly functional.

Legion's SP mechanics appear way, way better than WoD's for my tastes anyway, so it will be an upgrade regardless.

[Aeriel]

Yeah. Like said earlier: CoP is too far in the opposite direction. Legion is a happy medium for me.

[pixelated senpai]

Also I'd like to point out to @Purple mindspike has a completely different functionality in Legion. Still useless compared to LotV and StM, but it doesn't function the same.

I still dont understand why they want it so high in spikes , is that like a pvp burst thing or what?

[Kretan]

I still dont understand why they want it so high in spikes , is that like a pvp burst thing or what?

It's not even good in pvp.....you can dispel the stacks.

[Gnarilex]

I still dont understand why they want it so high in spikes , is that like a pvp burst thing or what?

They're trying desperately to save a talent no one is going to choose. At least earlier in the alpha StM could be seen as valuable during an important execute phase, but was overshadowed by the benefits of old LotV. I think they're trying to make Mind Spike the spriest version of demo's Demonbolt, but it just isn't working. It's almost like they tried combining it with Doom, since it would take around the same amount of time to build up the maximum number of stacks for the big burst at the end. That big burst is only 900% spellpower too if you manage to get to 10 stacks, which just isn't realistic as mind spike hits worse than mind flay (200% SP over 3 sec vs. 90% SP in 3 sec if your latency is good enough for two casts; excluding haste) and using the spell would put you at a disadvantage dps-wise. As Kretan pointed out it isn't even good in PvP. I'm hoping they'll replace it one of these builds with something better.