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  1. #81
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    when you are forced to rely on another to protect your freedoms and liberates you are then living under thumb of being a dependent of the one you rely on protecting your freedoms and liberties
    Yes, citizens are all dependent on their government. You've discovered the concept of "citizenship". Good for you.

    the authors and signers of the US constitution understood that and one of the reasons for the 2nd amendment so one has the means to protect ones own freedoms and liberties and not being reliant on being dependent on not forced to live under the thumb of another
    They just as clearly thought that everyone needed to abide by rule of law and that the rights of citizens should be legally protected by the government. The entire document is setting out legislative powers. And as for protecting rights of citizens, you've got the entire Bill of Rights, and particularly the 9th Amendment. And even the 2nd Amendment, which you hilariously cite as if it's a reflection of independence free of government, when the only reason it exists as a right is because the government grants it to you. The 2nd Amendment makes you as much a dependent as any other right.

    the less government a society is required to have is a direct reflection of the quality of that society If everyone in a society always did the right thing took care of each other you wouldn't need hardly any government
    Yes, if everyone did the best thing, we wouldn't need government.

    That isn't how humanity works, which is why anarchy never functions, and no advanced society exists without governance. And this concept necessarily means that your initial statement, that less government means a better society, is utterly incorrect.

    Hell, if you really believed it to be true, you'd agree that Somalia, which is practically anarchic these days, is a better-quality society than the USA, which has a relatively large government, even among developed nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    reason for the 2nd amendment so one doesn't have to live as a dependent to government and able to protect ones own individual freedoms and liberties
    Direct hypocrisy, since the only reason you have that right is because you're dependent on the government protecting it.


  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    Venezuela is indeed socialist on paper, which ought to illustrate the real problem surrounding socialist power structures: They're prone to become dictatorships because when the state directs the flow of resources, whomever controls that position is in a place to become enormously wealthy and powerful.
    It isn't a dictatorship. They have free and fair elections. You swallowed a load of bullshit somewhere.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yes, citizens are all dependent on their government. You've discovered the concept of "citizenship". Good for you.



    They just as clearly thought that everyone needed to abide by rule of law and that the rights of citizens should be legally protected by the government. The entire document is setting out legislative powers. And as for protecting rights of citizens, you've got the entire Bill of Rights, and particularly the 9th Amendment. And even the 2nd Amendment, which you hilariously cite as if it's a reflection of independence free of government, when the only reason it exists as a right is because the government grants it to you. The 2nd Amendment makes you as much a dependent as any other right.



    Yes, if everyone did the best thing, we wouldn't need government.

    That isn't how humanity works, which is why anarchy never functions, and no advanced society exists without governance. And this concept necessarily means that your initial statement, that less government means a better society, is utterly incorrect.

    Hell, if you really believed it to be true, you'd agree that Somalia, which is practically anarchic these days, is a better-quality society than the USA, which has a relatively large government, even among developed nations.

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    Direct hypocrisy, since the only reason you have that right is because you're dependent on the government protecting it.
    the concept of Inalienable Rights has no meaning to you does it? the constitution isn't a granting document it is a limiting document
    the constitution didn't grant us any rights the purpose was to limit government from taking them

  4. #84
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    the concept of Inalienable Rights has no meaning to you does it? the constitution isn't a granting document it is a limiting document
    the constitution didn't grant us any rights the purpose was to limit government from taking them
    "Inalienable" means they can't be taken away, not that they exist prior to government granting them. It's a basic English word, dude.

    Edit: To make your claim even more silly, your 2nd Amendment rights aren't inalienable. Hence why a background check will prevent ex-felons from buying a gun.
    Last edited by Endus; 2016-04-27 at 11:40 PM.


  5. #85
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Here is a good picture illustrating that socialism-capitalism has little to do with freedom-tyranny:



    Socialism-capitalism is an economical scale, while freedom-tyranny is social one.
    Communism and Socialism aren't the same thing, you're confusing the two. All words which end in -Ism do not share the same meaning.

    A much, much, much better political compass is this one:



    Note the "Anarcho-Communists" in the bottom Left, those are full fledged communists who have Zero government = communists do not require big government, some of them hate it.

    To put some people on the chart, that might provide a frame of reference:
    - Hillary Clinton is Authoritarianism
    - Bernie Sanders is Democratic Socialism
    - Donald Trump is Nationalism
    - Ted Cruz is Traditionalism
    - Rand Paul is Libertarianism

    As an Anarcho-Socialist, I'm closer to Rand Paul than Hillary Clinton, and Hillary/Trump are so far away from me (and aligned from my perspective) that I struggle to perceive their differences.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2016-04-28 at 12:07 AM.
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  6. #86
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Communism and Socialism aren't the same thing, you're confusing the two. All words which end in -Ism do not share the same meaning.

    A much, much, much better political compass is this one:

    [IMG]http://www.candidatex.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/political-compass-zones.jpg[IMG]

    Note the "Anarcho-Communists" in the bottom Left, those are full fledged communists who have Zero government = communists do not require big government, some of them hate it.

    To put some people on the chart, that might provide a frame of reference:
    - Hillary Clinton is Authoritarianism
    - Bernie Sanders is Democratic Socialism
    - Donald Trump is Nationalism
    - Ted Cruz is Traditionalism
    - Rand Paul is Libertarianism

    As an Anarcho-Socialist, I'm closer to Rand Paul than Hillary Clinton, and Hillary/Trump are so far away from me (and aligned from my perspective) that I struggle to perceive their differences.
    Eh, I mean to talk solely about socialism-capitalism, not about communism; just noticed that they put communism instead of socialism on the right plot, which is a bit misleading.

    Eh, my views aren't very popular... I've always been somewhere to the right-bottom; probably Anarchism, according to this plot. Never considered myself Anarchist, and yet all quizzes always dropped me in that region.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  7. #87
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Eh, I mean to talk solely about socialism-capitalism, not about communism; just noticed that they put communism instead of socialism on the right plot, which is a bit misleading.
    No, it's not misleading - capitalism and communism are mutually exclusive. Socialism and Capitalism are not. Every developed country on Earth is a Mixed Economy: the mix is Socialism+Capitalism. This includes the US, you have social safety nets, you have a military, you have a government - your all socialists - you all believe that the society should involve some degree of looking out for one another. What you are not, is communists.

    Please get it right. Bernie is a socialist, he is not a communist - by virtually any measure he is better for Capitalism than any other candidate - because he believes in regulating markets to ensure competition and innovation.

    Capitalism is not a stable system, it requires a guiding hand to keep it functioning. That hand is a functioning government with Socialist regulations against monopolies, cartels, and cronyism. Without that, Capitalism has never survived.

    Eh, my views aren't very popular... I've always been somewhere to the right-bottom; probably Anarchism, according to this plot. Never considered myself Anarchist, and yet all quizzes always dropped me in that region.
    I'd believe you are an Anarchist. I'm not sure why you would be, because having roads and not getting murdered is pretty sweet - but I'd believe you'd believe that'd be grand?
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2016-04-28 at 04:46 AM.
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    "More government" doesn't necessarily mean "less freedoms" though. Government doesn't only work as a controlling mechanism, it also works as an active economical force, redistributing and investing wealth.
    Problem is that politicians rarely have the brains to do it right, because they are... well, politicians, not economists; and they often tend to ignore advise from experts, believing that just because they got elected, it also makes them the smartest person around. People get reckless when they get to spend money that's not their own and have no idea where wealth initially comes from. Especially socialist politicians tend to act based on ideology rather than reality -- and also tend to have extremely low tolerance towards criticism.
    Last edited by mmocf7a456daa4; 2016-05-04 at 06:21 PM.

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