[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

Does flash of light work as utility? no it does not, not at the moment i agree.
Does a talented WoG count as possible utility? yes it does.

The problem i have with this entire argument is people asking that "i dont want to heal others" sort of thing.
No one is forcing you to heal them, but you asking for their flat removal shows how stupid the argument is and why blizzard does not want to listen to you.

i said this in the past and ill repeat it once more.
Retribution is not a fucking class, its a sub spec.
YOU ARE PALADINS FIRST AND FOREMOST. AND THEIR ROLE IS TO SUPPORT OTHERS IF YOU DONT LIKE THAT LEAVE.

/endrant

You are wrong. There is no support role in WoW. There hasnt been since Vanilla and TBC. And to be honest, i don't think any of us want to see the spec going back to those dark days.
Retribution is a damage dealing spec. It says so in your game when you choose a role. Theres no support role. Sorry, but that is how it is.

This is in regards to the caps statement btw. The heals could be better suited to our role and we could offer utility in that regard. But we aren't a support spec. That doesn't exist.
Hard casting heals isn't something a melee should be doing. It's not even viable to do so outside pvp and maybe 5 mans because you only got 1 healer. In raids? Impossible.
Not saying that there couldn't be heals, but these can't come at the cost of damage wich is the role you need to fill in group content.

Something like hand spells that heal the damage taken for x seconds and the sort. Thats the kind of healing that makes sense for a melee to do. Nothing with cast times.

[Yardu]

@Reghame 100% agree.
@Nemmar : You are so wrong it's laughable. Read my post on the previous page for a long detailed description as to why you are wrong.

[Deleted]

THANK FUCK, THEY'VE GIVEN US DIVINE PURPOSE BACK!

Now with Divine Purpose, it will give us the chance to get more TV's off during the Judg Window.

Yup. It's finally possible to use 3 finishers in one judgement window.

[scrappybristol]

Why hasn't Equality moved to the PVP tree yet?

They keep trying to make it work for PVE

[Wyrt]

Another buff to Equality. I wish Blizzard would learn that buffing poorly designed talents doesn't make them less poorly designed.

[Ulthane]

Oh thank the light

[ruiizu]

Another buff to Equality. I wish Blizzard would learn that buffing poorly designed talents doesn't make them less poorly designed.

Even more hilarious they keep buffing Holy Wrath too. I think they're seriously thinking "how powerful do we have to make these talents before people will use them?"

But thank god Divine Purpose is back. It's the talent I like the most, although if they keep buffing Holy Wrath, it'll be a serious competition. I think Divine Purpose is crappier as a result of the smaller Judge window, but the new Greater Judgment is kinda cool. Lets you hit more often with one of your stronger attacks (which is also ranged) and gives less downtime in the damage window.

Also new Greater Judgment means switching/new targets are potentially less punitive because there's less time till next damage window.

Edit: Misread Equality. 50% of missing health is still better than the 20% it was doing, but it's not going to be lethal very often. It could be devastating in the flag room before dying in RBGs though.

[Deleted]

Another buff to Equality. I wish Blizzard would learn that buffing poorly designed talents doesn't make them less poorly designed.

So much this. They are going to have to replace it eventually, it's either useless or broken, and they know that.

Fix the design, don't just keep mindlessly buffing it in the hope it magically fixes the problem.

But that would require too much common sense.

[ruiizu]

So much this. They are going to have to replace it eventually, it's either useless or broken, and they know that.

Fix the design, don't just keep mindlessly buffing it in the hope it magically fixes the problem.

But that would require too much common sense.

It's more funny because they said it was actually overtuned before and would do on par damage with the other talents, yet here they are buffing the crap out of it.

[Deleted]

@Reghame 100% agree.
@Nemmar : You are so wrong it's laughable. Read my post on the previous page for a long detailed description as to why you are wrong.

Err... wrong about? The role thing i'm not wrong about. Just open your group content pane and its right there. Theres only 3 choices. Tank, healer and damage dealer.

Edit: Oh you're the guy that goes around healing his raid. I already explained to you why you should'nt do that. That really will get you kicked from a serious raid. I'm not joking. You could get away with it in WoD with selfless healer, but if someone catches you hard casting a heal or doing Word of glory heals in the raid outside of a mechanic your group struggles with... brace yourself.

[Deleted]

Dont know whats worse... Reghame post or that guy agreeing with him and calling Nemmar laughable. Its quite obvious to anyone sane that Nemmar is right and Reghame rant is the laughable one.

Those that think dps heals qualify as utility need to wake up or try playing something else, like a healer and then let me know what they feel about dps not doing their job and interfering with you and thinking that they did good, or helped the raid at all.

And calling ret support dps is the joke of the year, considering that ret has probably one of the worst utilities out there.

Yes, i dps as ret usually first half of exp, as i always hope they will wake up and make ret good and paladiny for once, but then i give up due to bad gameplay and heal rest of the exp as resto druid. Tho, ret is still my first choice.
@Yardu If i see you doing that kind of shit in raid where i heal, you will have a lot of cursing coming your way.

[Wyrt]

Even more hilarious they keep buffing Holy Wrath too. I think they're seriously thinking "how powerful do we have to make these talents before people will use them?"

I'm pretty sure it's because they defended it in the alpha thread as a talent there for "fun" and not for min/maxing so a bunch of idiots that don't play ret paladins now defend the talent to the death. Now Blizzard can't remove it.

[Ulthane]

@Thete do me a favor. Use DP and see how dps looks when you use the proc from it on JV if it is a dps buff or stable.

TV for proc and use proc to do JV

[ruiizu]

Dont know whats worse... Reghame post or that guy agreeing with him and calling Nemmar laughable. Its quite obvious to anyone sane that Nemmar is right and Reghame rant is the laughable one.

Those that think dps heals qualify as utility need to wake up or try playing something else, like a healer and then let me know what they feel about dps not doing their job and interfering with you and thinking that they did good, or helped the raid at all.

And calling ret support dps is the joke of the year, considering that ret has probably one of the worst utilities out there.

I've played a healer and I don't see how it hurts when a DPS uses a skill that lightens your load. It's not that DPS healing isn't a utility at all: it's that they typically make healing too weak on a DPS to count it as a valid utility.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but raid DR buffs or speed buffs aren't the only utility. Occasional life saving healing, things like the old Judgment of Light or Judgment of Wisdom all count as utility. Utility is, simply put, anything you do outside of your primary role. If your main job is DPS but you can add healing without being a detriment to your DPS, that IS utility.

The fact that our healing isn't done in that way is more a testament to how poorly constructed the utility is. Word of Glory, if anything, should increase our damage done, rather than hurting it. When you make utility cost DPS, that's when that utility is junk. Imagine if Word of Glory radiated holy energy, dealing damage to enemies and healing allies. Would it be junk? I doubt it, if the numbers were tuned well.

See: Justicar's Vengeance. Even if it does less than TV, the trade off can be occasionally worth it even in a high end raid because you may get a life saving heal from it. Not because healers weren't doing their job, but because the fight you're doing is really difficult and your raid doesn't have gear to put it on "farm" yet.

- - - Updated - - -

@Thete do me a favor. Use DP and see how dps looks when you use the proc from it on JV if it is a dps buff or stable.

TV for proc and use proc to do JV

That's an interesting idea actually. Divine Purpose on JV should be a DPS increase over TV, right?

[Lunavale]

It's more funny because they said it was actually overtuned before and would do on par damage with the other talents, yet here they are buffing the crap out of it.

Idk what's more sad, that Kalgan actually thought he could pull one over us on equality maths (giving him the benefit of the doubt that he isn't in fact THAT bad at math) or that there were some players that actually believed him.

[Yardu]

Err... wrong about? The role thing i'm not wrong about. Just open your group content pane and its right there. Theres only 3 choices. Tank, healer and damage dealer.

Edit: Oh you're the guy that goes around healing his raid. I already explained to you why you should'nt do that. That really will get you kicked from a serious raid. I'm not joking. You could get away with it in WoD with selfless healer, but if someone catches you hard casting a heal or doing Word of glory heals in the raid outside of a mechanic your group struggles with... brace yourself.

Err... wrong about? The role thing i'm not wrong about. Just open your group content pane and its right there. Theres only 3 choices. Tank, healer and damage dealer.

I explained why you're wrong about that and so have others. If you actually read you'd know why you're wrong and I'm not going to type a wall of text explaining again. Just for a 2sec reply of what is essentially "lol you're wrong".

Oh you're the guy that goes around healing his raid.

I use my crit flash of lights on those about to die yes. If you actually read any parts of my posts you'd know that. If using a crit FoL twice in a raid is going to make you lose dps then you have a lot more to worry about. I have been talking about WoD only in every one of my posts. If you actually read you'd know this. No one is going to hard cast shit. Maybe I might hard cast once in a raid if it I know it would be useful yes.

[Deleted]

I've played a healer and I don't see how it hurts when a DPS uses a skill that lightens your load. It's not that DPS healing isn't a utility at all: it's that they typically make healing too weak on a DPS to count it as a valid utility.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but raid DR buffs or speed buffs aren't the only utility. Occasional life saving healing, things like the old Judgment of Light or Judgment of Wisdom all count as utility. Utility is, simply put, anything you do outside of your primary role. If your main job is DPS but you can add healing without being a detriment to your DPS, that IS utility.

The fact that our healing isn't done in that way is more a testament to how poorly constructed the utility is. Word of Glory, if anything, should increase our damage done, rather than hurting it. When you make utility cost DPS, that's when that utility is junk. Imagine if Word of Glory radiated holy energy, dealing damage to enemies and healing allies. Would it be junk? I doubt it, if the numbers were tuned well.

See: Justicar's Vengeance. Even if it does less than TV, the trade off can be occasionally worth it even in a high end raid because you may get a life saving heal from it. Not because healers weren't doing their job, but because the fight you're doing is really difficult and your raid doesn't have gear to put it on "farm" yet.

Well, obviously if it costs you 0dps, its not bad, its not that will ever happen or exist at all, at least not any meaningful stuff(you either trade time dpsing, HP that should be used for dps, or talents that trade dps for heals... and that is all BAD), but...

What exactly do people think healer is doing when someone is dying and needs heals fast? Ignore it and wait for dps to use their pathetic crap to save the guy or instantly react to save him themselves, using cds and big stuff? What happens when dps interferes? Healer wastes their cd, mana and time and because dps neglected his job to interfere with healers job the fight is prolonged and healer has to heal longer, but with less mana and cds... on top of longer fights meaning more room for mistakes etc...

But hey, if they ever make healing have 0 negative impact on dps and is actually meaningful healing, then im all for it(and would be op and never would happen without dps tradeoff)... But that might only work for, like you said, lightening the load, dps topping themselves up etc... certainly not saving people, as no healer will ever wait for dps to save the guy dying fast...
"Oh look, he is at 10% hp and dying, he is fine, he can save himself or some other dps will save him"... said no healer ever

Disclaimer: obviously, unless mechanics and tuning requires/allows it... it mostly does not tho

[Celebhil]

divine purpose has always been a handy talent, and i frequently prefered using it over its competing talents, but now that mastery is tied to judgement windows, I'm not sure how useful such proc will be (granted its not like we have more powerful talents atm). As for the judgement talent, both the current and this new build version demonstrates a weakness in judgement; unless haste can close the gap of judgement falling off, all the extra holy power generation and procs wont mean much.

Those of you who are in the alpha right now try to figure out a few things

-how many finishers can be done within normal/talented judgement window
-how often are you able to cap at 5 holy power b4 judgement can be refreshed?

[Zahlen]

Tier 100 talent change - Greater Blessings swapped for Divine Purpose.


Hooray!

Correction, Half hooray.
Why get rid of the one useful talent in the row (Let's ignore holy wrath until we can move while its channeled)

Why does blizzard have such a hard-on for equality.. my god.

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure it's because they defended it in the alpha thread as a talent there for "fun" and not for min/maxing so a bunch of idiots that don't play ret paladins now defend the talent to the death. Now Blizzard can't remove it.

Well... there will be a point where we will all stand in the fire to please them (cause they have made it crazy OP). I'm sure it will give great youtube comical moments.