[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Reghame]

nemmar yes there is no such thing as a pure utility spec. Im not asking for you to throw away all of your damage to simply use utility spells. Im arguing its stupid for the complete opposite knee jerk reasoning this forum has in where they want ALL of our utility removed to simply do dps like a fucking arms warrior. taking away healing and meaningful healing from paladin specs makes them not be paladins anymore thats just fact.

As for the love for DP andd the synergy people think JV will have with it. JV will not be used with DP's effect unless you need the heal. Sure its a nice bonus but baseline before any traits or buffs or anything TV outdoes JV in damage. ( btw comments on bosses never being stunnable is false, there are a number of bosses in the past that have stun mechanics, not even including add spawns)

the removal of blessing of justice is something im half and half on. i understand its removal because its just a passive buff and with the recent changes coming to blessing being unable to recast in combat i find this to be an easier way to deal with it. i will miss the large bonus effect of being able to buff those who i knew were big deeps with even bigger buffs but i guess overall this would be for the best.

The change to equality however...... they are going down a dangerous path in how this will work out. They seem intent on allowing a mechanic like this to pass but need i remind you that people standing in fire to do more damage is directly contradictory to what they have done for DPS and tanks so its going to be very harmful in any group play scenario where this talent becomes good enough or better than the other options of the tier (also shows some insight as to how developers think, remember that kalgan said it would be doing about half damage in PVP builds ago but now we are just seeing it. This means for those who do not know that devs are on builds WAYYYYY past the ones testable.)



BTW ret's damage seems to be complete shit ATM compared to everyone else now, a holy paladin's crusader strike does 6 times my crusader strike's damage meanwhile he can holy shock me every 6 seconds for 3 times the damage of my TV. PVP atm is so out of whack i cant even reliably test new skills because im dead in 2 seconds and i cant kill anything anymore.

[Deleted]

Even the reduction in armor the 300% is still more damage than that of the 60% holy. I think armor mitigates 30%? The CD is honestly like 4 second difference. Which yea, more HP gen but the damage between the two is so vast.

I've made the general math many pages ago. Sol is the best person to do accurate theorycrafting. But from memory it ends up with quite a big lead to BoW due to the scaling of TV (aka the result of the extra HP) with the mastery and echo of the highlord.
Thats why i sugested it giving a damage increase to TV to compensate on my redesign sugestion. In order to balance the scaling of BoV due to TV benefits and its scaling.

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nemmar yes there is no such thing as a pure utility spec. Im not asking for you to throw away all of your damage to simply use utility spells. Im arguing its stupid for the complete opposite knee jerk reasoning this forum has in where they want ALL of our utility removed to simply do dps like a fucking arms warrior. taking away healing and meaningful healing from paladin specs makes them not be paladins anymore thats just fact.

As for the love for DP andd the synergy people think JV will have with it. JV will not be used with DP's effect unless you need the heal. Sure its a nice bonus but baseline before any traits or buffs or anything TV outdoes JV in damage. ( btw comments on bosses never being stunnable is false, there are a number of bosses in the past that have stun mechanics, not even including add spawns)

.

Hmm... its a tough one. Warriors have utility aswell. So, imo it would depend on the trade-off. I doubt anyone wants all utility out of the window though. Probably some miscommunication.
Casting heals as a melee is not ideal at all, so something like a mechanic that allows me to help the group without a cost to our damage is always something welcome.
For example, trading off hard cast heal for a word of glory that is more potent, no HP cost and a lower cooldown could be an enticing proposition. PvP'rs would probably disagree though.

On the other topic, i am willing to bet that DP isn't gonna work with JV. They are gonna fix it so it only works as 3 HP. Though if it does and JV ends up dealing more damage than TV, it could be interesting. But i doubt that is the intention.
Btw, i can't recall any raid boss that could be stunned. Wich one do you mean?

[Ulthane]

Makes sense.

[Lumineus]

Btw, i can't recall any raid boss that could be stunned. Wich one do you mean?

I don't think there's been one since WotLK. The smallest one of the Iron Council trio in Ulduar. Some bosses stun themselves, however the most recent one i can think of was Hagara in Dragon Soul.

[Ulthane]

BTW ret's damage seems to be complete shit ATM compared to everyone else now, a holy paladin's crusader strike does 6 times my crusader strike's damage meanwhile he can holy shock me every 6 seconds for 3 times the damage of my TV. PVP atm is so out of whack i cant even reliably test new skills because im dead in 2 seconds and i cant kill anything anymore.

Good lord.....

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This also could be exactly what I was talking about with our defensive if we are getting blown out of the water fast or maybe Holy is over tuned. I found it VERY odd that Holy got Holy Avenger and a super Avenging Wrath in the PvP tree and we did not honestly. Never touched up on that in here but it made 0 sense.

Regardless this goes into exactly why I was saying instant FOL and higher uptime Shield of Vengeance. You think its op til you see what happens to you without it.

[Deleted]

Don't panic about the damage yet. It sucks for the testing, but they haven't balanced it.

Nah seriously, no reason to panic about that at this point. Though i am sure the flawed mechanics that Blizz cooked up are partially responsible. Ergh... i don't get why they are so stubburn sometimes. Would be so much simpler for judgement to be a buff. They sure like to complicate things.

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I don't think there's been one since WotLK. The smallest one of the Iron Council trio in Ulduar. Some bosses stun themselves, however the most recent one i can think of was Hagara in Dragon Soul.

Wow... i totally forgot about that little guy. Was he stunnable really? I remember him doing some spinny bladestorm thing but thats about it. Been such a long time.
I didn't raid Dragon soul so the other one i missed completely.

[Bolt66]

So...one talent fixed and still missing mobility, reliable defenses (oh divine protection...), any sort of real/run synergy in our rotation, interesting talents, and meaningful utility. Running a pretty good deficit from live Ret still.

[Reghame]

Good lord.....

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This also could be exactly what I was talking about with our defensive if we are getting blown out of the water fast or maybe Holy is over tuned. I found it VERY odd that Holy got Holy Avenger and a super Avenging Wrath in the PvP tree and we did not honestly. Never touched up on that in here but it made 0 sense.

Regardless this goes into exactly why I was saying instant FOL and higher uptime Shield of Vengeance. You think its op til you see what happens to you without it.

its less an issue about defensive capabilities and more that a lot of specs got damage buffs for no reason this patch as well as PVP templates being all fucky since last build.

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I don't think there's been one since WotLK. The smallest one of the Iron Council trio in Ulduar. Some bosses stun themselves, however the most recent one i can think of was Hagara in Dragon Soul.

last one i remember was last phase garrosh mythic when you ramme an iron star into him, there are more cases than this im sure because it is more common than people think but this is one i know for absolute sure exists from a boss fight.

[Snegovik]

Honestly HW has to become instant or not to share locked out time with out holy spells (aka bubble), in order for it to be viable for PvP, since atm DP is too good to pass up especially if DP procs will work for 5 HP JV strikes, instant heal + high dmg attack proc for PvP, this is pretty sexy if you ask me.
Did you guys notice how Blizzard removed (lvl 30 talents) judgement dmg buff from Greater judgement talent and instead reduced its cd by 2 seconds, thoughts?

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For example, trading off hard cast heal for a word of glory that is more potent, no HP cost and a lower cooldown could be an enticing proposition. PvP'rs would probably disagree though.

I actually rather have instant WOG that does not cost HPs than hard cast heal, since the only time i really hard cast in rated pvp when it is 1v1 and i rather not get to that point, so from PvP pov i agree with you :P even though generally i very dislike hard casting heals in PvP so my opinion is biased, other PvP rets may think otherwise

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P.S. I wouldn't worry about Holly Palla doing more dmg than Rets atm, if you remember during WOD beta Shockodins were OP there were even 2s skrimish videos where they just tore ppl apart, and now look at them :P, the moral of the story when ever Hpals do good dmg on alpha or beta, just ignore it cuz it will never make live )

[Reghame]

Honestly HW has to become instant or not to share locked out time with out holy spells (aka bubble), in order for it to be viable for PvP, since atm DP is too good to pass up especially if DP procs will work for 5 HP JV strikes, instant heal + high dmg attack proc for PvP, this is pretty sexy if you ask me.
Did you guys notice how Blizzard removed (lvl 30 talents) judgement dmg buff from Greater judgement talent and instead reduced its cd by 2 seconds, thoughts?

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I actually rather have instant WOG that does not cost HPs than hard cast heal, since the only time i really hard cast in rated pvp when it is 1v1 and i rather not get to that point, so from PvP pov i agree with you :P even though generally i very dislike hard casting heals in PvP so my opinion is biased, other PvP rets may think otherwise

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P.S. I wouldn't worry about Holly Palla doing more dmg than Rets atm, if you remember during WOD beta Shockodins were OP there were even 2s skrimish videos where they just tore ppl apart, and now look at them :P, the moral of the story when ever Hpals do good dmg on alpha or beta, just ignore it cuz it will never make live )

its so that it was not the only choice, the judge buff made it best for single and AOE.
As for holy wrath, im not even sure you can interrupt it. i have not seen a single person stop the cast ever since alpha came out with it.

[Snegovik]

Finally (just caught up with all the reading lol) I find it silly to argue about healing since both parties are correct in their own way, since all of the examples brought above are situational , sometimes it is better to spend your HPs even hard cast heals to keep some1 alive and other times it better for just go for a kill and let some1 in your raid die, it is all about the situation you find youself in, and this is what separates good players from average players, to know what is the best thing to do and follow ur guts instead of actions "by the book". Personally from my PvP experience some games in 3v3 i had a chance to hard cast save my healer (he was 5% hp with 2 dps on him) or go for a kill on enemy healer, in those moments if i know there is a high chance i can get a kill, i leave my healer on his own, because i know me and my dps teamate can 2v2 other 2 guys, but other times if we did not kill enemy within 1st minute of the game or i know there is little chance of me getting a kill, then i play very defensively and actually hard cast heals to help out healing who is being trained or 2nd dps if healer is sitting in a cc-chain so that we stay alive untill our 2min cds are up again for a 2nd kill window. Hence you can not say that healing is wrong or right, it is all about the situation you are facing.

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its so that it was not the only choice, the judge buff made it best for single and AOE.
As for holy wrath, im not even sure you can interrupt it. i have not seen a single person stop the cast ever since alpha came out with it.

Can you test it in a duel and get back to us )))) plz ?

[Woop Woop]

P.S. I wouldn't worry about Holly Palla doing more dmg than Rets atm, if you remember during WOD beta Shockodins were OP there were even 2s skrimish videos where they just tore ppl apart, and now look at them :P, the moral of the story when ever Hpals do good dmg on alpha or beta, just ignore it cuz it will never make live )

I hope it means ret's damage will be buffed. From raid tests it looks like ret is at the bottom of the dps meters, near the tanks.
Makes me think about not leveling my ret even though...you know, Ashbringer.

[Snegovik]

I hope it means ret's damage will be buffed. From raid tests it looks like ret is at the bottom of the dps meters, near the tanks.
Makes me think about not leveling my ret even though...you know, Ashbringer.

I honestly don't think that Blizzard is THIS much ignorant to Rets, i highly doubt that after pushing the new Niche on us being low mobile, but hard hitting ST melee class, they will let us sit at the bottom of the DPS meters.

[Vintersol]

Divine Purpose <3

[Kuriyama]

Praise be unto Divine Purpose. I'm glad that horrible and boring Blessings of Justice talent is gone. Now they're bringing back the RNG "look at all your abilities light up!" gameplay...I'm okay with that. I'd really like to know if Justicar's Vengeance procs off it. Equality's change is bleh for raiding. I'd still never take it. However, it seems they're trying to get people to take it for solo play but with DP back, I'd probably never touch Equality or Holy Wrath.

The Greater Judgment change probably won't change too much. So its CD will be reduced to 10 seconds, that might go down to 6 seconds when geared for haste? Maybe 7 seconds, I don't know, I'll leave that to the math buffs. Either way, not too big a change and we'd still be able to keep the buff up quite a lot.

Holy Wrath damage buff. Erm...meh. I really don't care about Holy Wrath at this point, especially when Wake of Ashes will give us 5 HP once we unlock the trait. If they made it so you could channel while moving, I'd possibly be interested but I don't fancy standing still to channel an ability.

[Deleted]

Good lord.....

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This also could be exactly what I was talking about with our defensive if we are getting blown out of the water fast or maybe Holy is over tuned. I found it VERY odd that Holy got Holy Avenger and a super Avenging Wrath in the PvP tree and we did not honestly. Never touched up on that in here but it made 0 sense.

Regardless this goes into exactly why I was saying instant FOL and higher uptime Shield of Vengeance. You think its op til you see what happens to you without it.

There was a recent blue post suggesting Holy's dps is actually TOO LOW compared to other healers, and said they were going to increase it, so they may be about to do even more damage than Ret.

I don't envy them though, I still don't understand how Holy is supposed to heal itself when it's only strong instant heal option doesn't work when selfcast. They pretty much can't heal themselves when focused. The fact they have to kill themselves (LoTM) to do the same as other healers is also pretty amusing.

Very paladiny though. Not the martyr aspect, the bit where your kit is the same as others except has horrible drawbacks.

[Woop Woop]

Holy Wrath would actually be really cool if it was immune to interrupts (I mean, come on, we're melee, not a caster! Interruptable Slam would be stupid for warriors when they had it) and channel while moving. Equality has too long cooldown for what it does IMO, not an interesting talent, making it good/overpowered won't change that.

[Snegovik]

I think if blizzard wants make HW work (from PvP POV) they need make it 1.5 sec cast time + 2x dmg on stunned targets, then we will have a nice mini burst window opportunity or even a big burst with wings popped: Wings, judgement, hoj, HW, JV, Ashes, JV = target dead? if did not trinket, i like the idea 2x dmg on stunned targets (like back in wrath), thus people will always double think if they should trinket that stun or eat it, if they do, it opens up window to chain ccing them and swapping to different target =)

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Equality is still crap dmg wise compared to DP, i mean 50% of your missing hp? so lets say you will cast it when you are above 20% hp, since when you are in an execute range, i doubt u will be chasing any1 to cast Equality (since its crap range) when warrior, shadow, destro, hunter in the picture, who can end your Ret's life in a global, so we will cast it when we are anywhere 25-30% hp, hence it will be doing roughly 35-37% hp dmg, which is not much in a 3 min window which is very very situational and can not be used when you may need it the most, compared to DP.

[Woop Woop]

I think if blizzard wants make HW work (from PvP POV) they need make it 1.5 sec cast time + 2x dmg on stunned targets, then we will have a nice mini burst window opportunity or even a big burst with wings popped: Wings, judgement, hoj, HW, JV, Ashes, JV = target dead? if did not trinket, i like the idea 2x dmg on stunned targets (like back in wrath), thus people will always double think if they should trinket that stun or eat it, if they do, it opens up window to chain ccing them and swapping to different target =)

I remember them saying they didn't like abilities doing more damage on stunned targets, it's why they made Deep Freeze break on damage and removed it from fire and arcane spec. Would be stupid for them to go back on their word, but it wouldn't be the first time I guess.

[Snegovik]

Yes i know that ) but lets face it, it wouldnt be 1st time Blizzard has done something stupid nor the last time..cough cough Equality at 10 yard range.