1. #4701
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    I have no problem with content designed for flight, but even in previous xpacs this was just to access dungeons/raids and a few daily areas, which became stale.
    One the main points I've been arguing is to take the existing and past examples of flight and expanding or improving them. This is not, and has never been, a call for a simple cut and paste of flight onto ground content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    The problem is, they can put it in to level with and design leveling quests around it, which I could be for but runs the risk of new players not having flight. The problem this brings is they have to design ways for players to access the flight based leveling areas, and the arguement that then follows is, if it's there for non fliers, why would fliers need it as well, so what's the point of flight to level.

    Then they could have it just accessible at max level, but again comes the problem of new players and people that might not be able to afford flight. The very obvious counter would be to make flying cheaper than dirt, but track record alone I don't see that.
    I have to admit that I'm having trouble following your writing style, but I'll give my responses my best shot.

    I am not advocating some kind of separate content that can only be done from the back of a flying mount, which excludes people who choose to go with a ground mount. While I think that would be kind of cool if Blizzard was willing to create double the content(one set for ground, one set for flight), I doubt that's entirely feasible.

    What I AM advocating is allowing for different approaches to the same content. Someone on the ground has to fight their way past guards to reach a boss, while someone in the air has to dodge cannon fire to get to the same place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Pushing the subject is fine, talking about it is fine, presenting good strong arguements for it is fine. To put simply, if you have a table of 10 people, who are you more than likely to listen to and work with, the guys talking calmly with good reasoning? Or the guys yelling their heads off and calling the decision maker a conniving, shady piece of crap?
    Not so much a straw man as much as just calling it like I see it. I'm not diverting the issue, just touching base on a trend I've noticed as the thread continues.
    Except when no one is yelling, and is instead simply pointing out the flaws of trusting someone with a proven track record of not living up to the hype in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    On a side note: just saw Blizz posted Pathfinder Part One. So at least the fear it won't be in at all should be slightly abated.
    It's good to have confirmation that they're actually finalizing a plan of going with a pathfinder unlock, because now we don't have to guess at their intentions: To relegate flight to being a side show, and unusable in anything relevant.

    Guess I won't be buying after all. So much for hoping they'd change their minds.

    Edit: I used the wrong phrase.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2016-04-28 at 03:29 AM.

  2. #4702
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Holy god, are you in politics? Because that twisted, doublespeak logic would work there. Not here though.


    Wh y*should* I compromise? you in fact are refusing to admit that the game was fine for 8 years with flight, even when flight wasn't integral to an area. Flight hurt nothing aside from the feelings of some whiny asshats.


    Oh fuck right off. I'm done with you. You've utterly refused to give even good reasons why flight as it was for most of the game should't be restored. And of course they get to design the game. Me, I get to tell them I'm not buying it because they're being pigheaded asshats.
    No I'm not in politics, but seeing as how stating truth and fact don't belong there I don't think I'd have a shot.
    Ive already stated why players would have to compromise, not going to repeat myself for the 5th person to post the same mind numbing question as to why it would be a good idea, if you want to see it go look at previous posts. I've never said flight hurt the game, so not sure why it's surprising to you I never offered reasons why it did. I've simply stated that nothing in WoD was designed for it, all other xpacs it was required for to reach something, such as dungeons/raids, daily areas, and the occasional quest area (which still didn't offer new gameplay, just an NPC on a floating island). Hence, of course the game was fine for flight during those xpacs/years, it was required. Pretty sure that every time I've said that it's an indirect admitt to flight having been fine. Maybe subtelty is too strong for you, so here it is: FLIGHT WAS FINE IN PREVIOUS XPACS AS IT DIFECTLY TIED INTO THE WORLD DESIGN AND WAS NECESSARY FOR THINGS IN GAME. That being said, neither WoD nor Legion (so far) requires flight for anything.
    I literally have the best reason it shouldn't be restored (not my viewpoint technically): IT'S BLIZZARD'S GAME. We are invited to play it if we choose. If you don't want to play because it doesn't have flight, please be careful on your way out.

  3. #4703
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondercrab View Post
    Indeed. The meta achievement seems even more time consuming than the WoD version, and this is only "part one".

    I really think that the issue of flying is suffering from an extreme amount of over-design at the moment, maximising the negatives for as many players as possible rather than pursuing solutions that work for everyone. The model in Pandaria was excellent: Flyable overworld with small dedicated no-fly zones for endgame content. People who loved flying had plenty of content that was designed around it, incentivising things like gathering professions, rare hunting, and the whole cloud serpent faction that was *specifically* tailored to flying. Similarly, those who preferred to stay grounded had three tight, well-built endgame areas where they could enjoy lots of players running around together without flying mounts ever being enabled. There was something for everyone.

    The way WoD and Legion have handled it ensures that most people will have to endure a lengthy period of time in which they're stuck with their least favourite option, with no content specifically designed around it in the long term. Add lengthy, offputting grinds to that, and you've got a system that predominantly serves to alienate rather than cater to large amounts of the playerbase.

    Before, everyone got thrown a bone. Now, we have to take turns with it, and someone's always going to get the gross end.
    It seems to me they are going to stagger the achievement as follows:

    Part one: Launch

    Part two: First patch

    Part three: Second patch

    Part four: Third patch

    I suspect they go to a model of having three big patches for Legion because they were leaning towards that for WoD. For Mop they had two big patches and two little patches

    If the are going to sequester the meta this way then a lot of players will not bother doing the achievement or staying subbed for the duration of the expansion. Thus, they are shooting themselves in the foot if their goal is maximize up front box sales and also maximizing transactions in their store. If a player isn't subbed they are less likely to transfer characters, buy a store mount, etc.

    So even their RMT model starts to fall apart, as well as their box model by sequestering the meta out if that is their end goal.
    Last edited by Mafic; 2016-04-28 at 03:32 AM.

  4. #4704
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    One the main points I've been arguing is to take the existing and past examples of flight and expanding or improving them. This is, and has never been, a call for a simple cut and paste of flight onto ground content.



    I have to admit that I'm having trouble following your writing style, but I'll give my responses my best shot.

    I am not advocating some kind of separate content that can only be done from the back of a flying mount, which excludes people who choose to go with a ground mount. While I think that would be kind of cool if Blizzard was willing to create double the content(one set for ground, one set for flight), I doubt that's entirely feasible.

    What I AM advocating is allowing for different approaches to the same content. Someone on the ground has to fight their way past guards to reach a boss, while someone in the air has to dodge cannon fire to get to the same place.



    Except when no one is yelling, and is instead simply pointing out the flaws of trusting someone with a proven track record of not living up to the hype in the past.



    It's good to have confirmation that they're actually finalizing a plan of going with a pathfinder unlock, because now we don't have to guess at their intentions: To relegate flight to being a side show, and unusable in anything relevant.

    Guess I won't be buying after all. So much for giving them the benefit of the doubt.
    Yeah, I get your point, but the problem is it calls for a total redesign of the game and will tie directly into what I'm about to follow up with.
    The problem with your idea (although I don't have a personal issue and like it) is that it directly affects new players. Depending on the flight progression system, it's entirely feasible to see new player not having the gold to afford the choice. As far as the cannon idea, once you learn the aspects of them, it's just too easy or too difficult to fly past cannonballs and still trivializes the content somewhat. Things to include would be patrolling mobs that knock you down off the mount into more mobs or makes it to where you can't mount again for a long while, preventing you from just flying back out. The main issue is that people that have played longer have an advantage over people that haven't.
    You and I have been in this thread long enough to know there's been pointless name calling and derogatory remarks on both sides.
    Unfortunately, we've known this for a while. There just was no definitive answer so people were clinging to hope something else would happen.

  5. #4705
    I'm very happy there is a long, drawn out meta broken into 'part 1' and presumably more parts to come. Its reassuring Blizzard knows most players do NOT want to fly until late in the expansion. (preferably not at all of c - but i'll settle for final patch).

    People should quit complaining about the requirements, because they basically amount to saying 'play the game'. They arent stipulating you do anything special within a super-limited timeframe. You simply... play the game. Shocking requirement - I know.

  6. #4706
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    The problem with your idea (although I don't have a personal issue and like it) is that it directly affects new players. Depending on the flight progression system, it's entirely feasible to see new player not having the gold to afford the choice.
    Then don't make it an issue of gold. Make it an epic quest line. Make it a green-fire style skill-based objective. Make it unlockable in whatever way you choose to approach it from(gold, quest, or skill).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    As far as the cannon idea, once you learn the aspects of them, it's just too easy or too difficult to fly past cannonballs and still trivializes the content somewhat.
    How is that any more or less trivial than any other open world quest that people skip past on the ground, though? It was just an idea off the top of my head. I'm certain that a team of professionals working for Blizzard could come up with better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    The main issue is that people that have played longer have an advantage over people that haven't.
    This is always true, no matter what game, no matter what format. I'm not sure what your point is here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    I'm very happy there is a long, drawn out meta broken into 'part 1' and presumably more parts to come. Its reassuring Blizzard knows most players do NOT want to fly until late in the expansion. (preferably not at all of c - but i'll settle for final patch).

    People should quit complaining about the requirements, because they basically amount to saying 'play the game'. They arent stipulating you do anything special within a super-limited timeframe. You simply... play the game. Shocking requirement - I know.
    This viewpoint is new and interesting, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  7. #4707
    Quote Originally Posted by RoxyBlue View Post
    Oh ffs, it will be a meta like wod, im sure you will need reps and explorations..treasures prob not. The main difference between wod and legion is wod they never wanted to put flight in at all. I dont care what people backtrack on and say, their intention was no flight. They caved under pressure because no one expected the tantrums that people threw, that left them scrambling to add flight. I rem flight testing on the ptr it was a buggy mess because they never designed wod with free flight in mind.
    Yeah, no.

    "No flight ever" was announced AFTER WoD was released. Up until release, it was still announced for the "first major patch". Then it became "maybe later than that".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    OK, it's out for testing. Now what?
    So when can we expect to be able to fly?
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  8. #4708
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    OK, it's out for testing. Now what?
    Great that it is out.

    Bad that it won't give you flying and is only the first step (yes, like they said before, but that's bad, so that's bad stuff confirming).

    Now I want to know when I am going to be able to fly. In fact, I want them to make this very achievement grant flying already, they can make the next steps grant some mounts or whatever.

  9. #4709
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondercrab View Post
    Indeed. The meta achievement seems even more time consuming than the WoD version, and this is only "part one".

    I really think that the issue of flying is suffering from an extreme amount of over-design at the moment, maximising the negatives for as many players as possible rather than pursuing solutions that work for everyone. The model in Pandaria was excellent: Flyable overworld with small dedicated no-fly zones for endgame content. People who loved flying had plenty of content that was designed around it, incentivising things like gathering professions, rare hunting, and the whole cloud serpent faction that was *specifically* tailored to flying. Similarly, those who preferred to stay grounded had three tight, well-built endgame areas where they could enjoy lots of players running around together without flying mounts ever being enabled. There was something for everyone.

    The way WoD and Legion have handled it ensures that most people will have to endure a lengthy period of time in which they're stuck with their least favourite option, with no content specifically designed around it in the long term. Add lengthy, offputting grinds to that, and you've got a system that predominantly serves to alienate rather than cater to large amounts of the playerbase.

    Before, everyone got thrown a bone. Now, we have to take turns with it, and someone's always going to get the gross end.
    In my view what SHOULD "work for everyone" is the continent accessible via the ground, with flying being an option later.
    I just think they are so hellbent on forcing people through this experience that they forget it isn't universally appealing.
    If it was, why would so many opt to fly and not use ground mounts unless absolutely forced to.

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    I'm very happy there is a long, drawn out meta broken into 'part 1' and presumably more parts to come. Its reassuring Blizzard knows most players do NOT want to fly until late in the expansion. (preferably not at all of c - but i'll settle for final patch).

    People should quit complaining about the requirements, because they basically amount to saying 'play the game'. They arent stipulating you do anything special within a super-limited timeframe. You simply... play the game. Shocking requirement - I know.
    "Playing the game" is what I can do when I can choose what to play, and do more of that.
    I actually play less of it when travel gets in the way.

    Ground travel means I choose one thing or another to experience.
    Flying lets me have both.
    The latter is "playing the game" - the former is repeating unappealing or irrelevant stuff and doing less as a result.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2016-04-28 at 06:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  10. #4710
    "Playing the game" is what I can do when I can choose what to play, and do more of that.
    Having zero barriers to playing how you want to play makes the game worse. Its barriers, as determined by the game designers, that make a game fun and compelling to play.

  11. #4711
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Having zero barriers to playing how you want to play makes the game worse. Its barriers, as determined by the game designers, that make a game fun and compelling to play.
    Well then, clearly the game designers on the wow team suck.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  12. #4712
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    If people spent the time they spend on the Forums complaining about the Meta just actually doing the objectives of the Meta in-game, you would all have it done before flying is/was enabled.

    The amount of people I saw on these forums when they announced the WoD flying requirements that spent months on the forums saying over and over "I'm not playing again until flying is back!" was insanely hilarious. Considering it took the whole of 2 weeks of casual playing to complete the Meta Achievement.

  13. #4713
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Well then, clearly the game designers on the wow team suck.
    Yes.... thats why their game has lasted 10+ years and still has millions of players, even to this very day....

    Could you point me in the direction of "Elim garak's" game, which presumably has enjoyed some level of success, for him to proclaim such an authoritative statement?

  14. #4714
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Yes.... thats why their game has lasted 10+ years and still has millions of players, even to this very day....
    It went from 12m to <5m, clearly where's a TREND? Will you parry that with "but it's 10 years old" refuting your own "has lasted 10 years"?
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Could you point me in the direction of "Elim garak's" game, which presumably has enjoyed some level of success, for him to proclaim such an authoritative statement?
    That would be self-doxxing? Why would I do that?
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  15. #4715
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jack Flash View Post
    If people spent the time they spend on the Forums complaining about the Meta just actually doing the objectives of the Meta in-game, you would all have it done before flying is/was enabled.

    The amount of people I saw on these forums when they announced the WoD flying requirements that spent months on the forums saying over and over "I'm not playing again until flying is back!" was insanely hilarious. Considering it took the whole of 2 weeks of casual playing to complete the Meta Achievement.
    Except for the fact that we can't, since the content will be added in future patches.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  16. #4716
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jack Flash View Post
    If people spent the time they spend on the Forums complaining about the Meta just actually doing the objectives of the Meta in-game, you would all have it done before flying is/was enabled.
    That achievement doesn't give you flying, so I am not sure what your point is. Even if your sentence was right (it's not), there's little point in doing that achievement.

  17. #4717
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    That achievement doesn't give you flying, so I am not sure what your point is. Even if your sentence was right (it's not), there's little point in doing that achievement.
    If you read carefully I said "before Flying IS/WAS enabled" meaning once the Meta for flying comes out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Except for the fact that we can't, since the content will be added in future patches.
    Come back at that patch it is implemented then? If Flying is such a huge fucking impact on your gaming experience.

  18. #4718
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jack Flash View Post
    If you read carefully I said "before Flying IS/WAS enabled" meaning once the Meta for flying comes out.
    Yes, I read that, I understand what you wrote, I just don't understand the point. It's like, "if you whiners weren't so busy whining, you could have leveled an alt". I mean, okay.

  19. #4719

    No buying Legion in 7.0 confirmed.

    Unless Blizzard won't implement "anti-pristine" servers, where flying will be enabled at launch.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  20. #4720
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post

    No buying Legion in 7.0 confirmed.

    Unless Blizzard won't implement "anti-pristine" servers, where flying will be enabled at launch.
    The less people that will be whining about flying in-game at launch the better, best of luck wherever you fare!

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