1. #4921
    Herald of the Titans Northem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Here we go again. Have you SEEN Fire/Frost? Stop with the drama/doomsaying about a spec that's actually pretty decent overall.
    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann View Post
    Arcane I am not too worried on the MoA, it's part of Artifact and they have plenty of motivation to get that right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Opinions aside, I will tell you once more, Northem, if Arcane gets any touch-ups, you should almost expect Fire and Frost to get 100% revamps. Arcane is quite solid right now whether you believe it or not. Fire still needs fixing (and only they get to be called the "most neglected), and Frost could use some love. Arcane is fine.
    Let's see, maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough.

    At no time I've wanted to say that the Arcane Mages are an absolute disaster so that they can't even be playable. I'm just saying that, for months now, there are still several issues that need to be corrected but that, nevertheless, Blizzard ignores them and doesn't even deign to respond.

    Being myself an Arcane Mage, I don't know the state of the rest of specializations and classes, but I am aware that it is possible that the other specializations and perhaps other classes need more attention than the Arcane Mages.

    Therefore, I can admit that the Arcane Mages' issues have to be ignored because there are other specializations or classes that need more urgent attention, but what I can't accept under any circumstances is that people say that the Arcane Mages are perfect and don't need any fixes…

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I see a spec with a few issues.
    Exactly, that's the point. Arcane Mages still have a few issues to be fixed, therefore they are not "perfect". Compared with other specs/classes perhaps they are in a better place, but that doesn't make them "perfect".

    PS. Sorry, I hadn't noticed that this wasn't the Arcane thread :S
    Last edited by Northem; 2016-04-25 at 08:16 PM.

  2. #4922
    Northem you literally said "Arcane Mages are the most neglected specialisation of the most neglected class".
    Nobody is saying Arcane Mages are perfect, we're all saying that you're talking out of your ass. You've even just admitted that actually you have no idea how much Arcane Mages are neglected compared to literally any other specialisation.

    If you want your concerns to be taken seriously then stop pairing them with completely ridiculous claims that even you yourself have pointed out you do not have the knowledge to back up.

  3. #4923
    If I understand correctly, the following is being called "the most neglected class in the game":
    - A class that just got its mastery flipped upside-down, and along with it the core rotation's resource management.
    - On the same vein, a class that has just been granted proper choice of when and where it can spend resources to do priority target damage, instead of feeling powerless when dangerous enemies don't appear at the 0, 2, 4 or 6 minute mark.
    - The first and only class in the history of WoW capable of teleporting from fire in the middle of a spell, and then teleport back when the fire is gone, without even cancelling a cast...
    - ...also the first and only class to gain a legit counter to the "enemy ran out of range/LoS" problem, because it can do last minute blinks to reposition where it completes a cast.
    - A class that just gained the capability to reactively, generate full damage resources on demand, with burst damage that can be synchronized with trinket effects, eliminating the old weakness of ramp-up time
    - A class has been intentionally designed as unchallenged king of the single target damage niche, for 3 raid instances in a row...
    - ...and yet this class isn't even confined to a single target niche anymore, but has been changed to be capable in both AOE and single target.

    I'm quite ok with this level of "neglect". When the legion preview was released, it was explicitly stated that devs thought we were in a good spot in terms of fantasy, and did not expect big overhauls to our specs. Since then, aside from the above, we've seen...
    - A new auto-spreading Ignite mechanic (that's actually different from Necrotic Plague)
    - Rune of Power completely revamped into a cooldown
    - Mechanical adjustments to weak performing old talents such as Comet Storm
    - Long cast-time spells added to Frost to make haste work as a tier 1 secondary, so we don't run into MoP "haste capping" land again
    - A never-seen-before off-gcd-usable-while-casting-multi-charge damage spell in the new Inferno Blast
    - A triple revamped Phoenix's Flames into the current version that no longer clashes with Pyroblast and contributes to Hot Streak
    - And many other mechanic changes that I won't bother listing one-by-one.

    No, I'm not saying everything is in a great spot. There are plenty of issues that still need work, and plenty of issues that devs will never change to our liking, simply because of our demographic as deeply invested players. But it's outright silly to be complaining that we're not "getting enough attention". We've gotten quite a bit - maybe even more than devs expected to give us. And if you ask me, most of it probably happened only because people provided great feedback. Feedback that made great arguments for why a change was needed. Feedback that identified the pain points and provided laser-precision solutions to solve them.

    Feedback that isn't bullshit like "Arcane Mages are the most neglected class".
    Last edited by Komman; 2016-04-25 at 08:54 PM.

  4. #4924
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Komman View Post
    snip
    You made me love the Arcane even more...and I'm just looking at it from the outside like a kid with his nose pressed up against the sweet shop. I am not sure what sold me on a spec I have been sour about since Cataclysm. The liberation from our old mastery, the fact Arcane Explosion is now an Area Effect Arcane Blast...or any one of the many things you mentioned but Arcane looks like too much fun to pass up.

    I still think we have a few issues, and some things still stick on my craw a bit,but I am excited for our class for Legion. It's probably going to be in the best shape it has been for a long, long time (Mists of Pandaria was a great expansion, but it was a class design nadir for us).

  5. #4925
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    Let's see, maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough.

    At no time I've wanted to say that the Arcane Mages are an absolute disaster so that they can't even be playable.
    No, but saying it's "the most neglected spec" without even knowing about Fire/Frost's issues is pretty laughable and makes it hard to take you seriously. You really should stop doing mental 180s when someone disagrees with you or points out when you said something odd or just incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    I'm just saying that, for months now, there are still several issues that need to be corrected but that, nevertheless, Blizzard ignores them and doesn't even deign to respond.
    Look at Fire. They just obliterated Living Bomb and finally made Phoenix Flames not a total piece of shit. You think Arcane is being ignored? Ffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    Being myself an Arcane Mage, I don't know the state of the rest of specializations and classes
    Classes I'll give you, but not even being aware of your other specializations is very, very sad. You really should educate yourself on the other 66% of the class (and trust me, it's far, FAR more neglected/ignored than Arcane has been this alpha).

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    Therefore, I can admit that the Arcane Mages' issues have to be ignored because there are other specializations or classes that need more urgent attention, but what I can't accept under any circumstances is that people say that the Arcane Mages are perfect and don't need any fixes…
    No one is saying Arcane is perfect. We're saying that Arcane is solid compared to Fire/Frost.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  6. #4926
    My overall impression is all three specs are pretty solid, with each having a few tweaks that would be nice. We also have great representation for each spec. Having paid close attention to Frost, would say that almost every concern Kuni has raised has been addressed. He listed a couple on forums two weeks ago, waiting to see if any movement happens

    Would have loved to see the class reduced from 3 common tiers, however not upset that did not make it for Legion.

    Now if I can just get an invite to play all 3 specs, happy camper! Want to try Arcane because Komma is so damn passionate about it!

  7. #4927
    Here are some Legion raid testing, sorry for the delay.

    From April 4th

    Elerethe Renferal Heroic



    Dragons Of Nightmare Heroic



    From today :

    Star Augur Etraeus Heroic



    Krosus Heroic (Kill)



    I couldn't attend April 15th and 18th testing due to me being in hospital, so no Mage PoV for these ones.
    I also have a Court of Start Normal PoV on the way, but I might skip to heroic directly.

  8. #4928
    Herald of the Titans Northem's Avatar
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    It's okay! I agree! Maybe I should have deleted that "wonderful phrase" before it became viral (which apparently is the only thing that has attracted the attention of everyone ...).

    I understand that the Arcane Mages may be in a better position than the rest of specializations/classes, but at least several basic issues about them should be solved:

    • We are a ranged class, so that we do not want to rely on melee abilities ([Arcane Explosion], [Aegwynn's Ascendance]).
    • For years, our basic spells' graphics have not been updated, making them by far the worst of all classes/specializations.
    • Our artifact's active skill is pure garbage, impossible to use in most aspects of the game. Definitely [Mark of Aluneth] is the most disappointing artifact's active skill of all others.
    • Many of our talents require a profound revision, plus they are not even organized in an understandable way.
    • The amount of random effects for our specialization has increased in an alarming way. Randomness is not fun, it's frustrating.

  9. #4929
    What do you think about the 3 Speccs in Legion?

    a) Which has better kit for Single Target?
    b) Which is better for Cleave? (2-3 Targets)
    c) Which is better for AE?
    d) Which is better for Multi Target (Spreaded)

    Or do you think, that the speccs are so good designed that we really need only one specc in the expansion?
    If you look at moonkin, i think thats their goal for the hybrid speccs. They can specc for every possible situation same for ele

  10. #4930
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    I understand that the Arcane Mages may be in a better position than the rest of specializations/classes, but at least several basic issues about them should be solved:
    Okay, I'll bite. Let me put a pretend-I'm-a-dev hat on, and see how this goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    • We are a ranged class, so that we do not want to rely on melee abilities ([Arcane Explosion], [Aegwynn's Ascendance]).
    "Oh, you mean your instant cast, 0 cooldown, mobile, arcane-charge-generating-with-arcane-barrage-and-torrent-synergy generator spell that still does lots of damage, needs to also be usable from ranged and positioned wherever you want it? You want a ranged spammable Supernova with no cooldown? Cool."

    Seriously now. Arcane was weak in AOE by design, and it wasn't even that bad because of Supernova/Nether Tempest/stupid trinkets like Prophecy of Fear. Yet you're asking for an AOE spell that has no limitations and no weaknesses. Have you even put any thought into it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    • For years, our basic spells' graphics have not been updated, making them by far the worst of all classes/specializations.
    "I see. You've never used Arcane Orb, Supernova, Nether Tempest, I guess. Nor have you seen the new Mark of Aluneth or Touch of the Magi or Aegwynn's Ascendance."

    I know there have been a lot of complaints about Arcane graphics, but I've always preferred subtle effects instead of flashy ones. Fire is flashy because it is naturally affiliated with flames. Frost should be flashy in the "I'm conjuring gigantic things out of ice" way. Arcane is often associated with smoke, illusions, runes and other things that take no form, so I actually prefer it keeping a mysterious, subtle aura with the graphics. It's a graphical representation of "Ordered magical energy". Bright yellow solar beams telling the world "HEY GUYS, LOOK AT ME!" are holy, not arcane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    • Our artifact's active skill is pure garbage, impossible to use in most aspects of the game. Definitely [Mark of Aluneth] is the most disappointing artifact's active skill of all others.
    "Interesting. This user hasn't said anything about what's wrong with the spell, other than that he doesn't know how to use it, and thinks the spell is garbage. I guess we'll just have to make sure the tooltip specifies that it isn't garbage."

    Have you even bothered looking at other specs? Ebonbolt right now is a single target nuke that literally doesn't do anything other than damage. Phoenix's Flame, until the recent updates, was a scheduled override on Pyroblast without the gameplay interactions, interrupting the natural flow of the rotation. Also take a look at Blast Furnace - right now, it does nothing other than add a weak DOT that cannot be extended through pandemic to Inferno Blast, does mediocre damage and has no interaction with any other spell, provides no meaningful visual feedback, and has no consequence on how you play. What makes Mark of Aluneth "the most disapponting of all others"?

    Mark of Aluneth, despite the frustrations in using it, is still a very powerful spell that you can set up for. That applies even more so in AOE situations. In addition, because of how Savant works, every mana-positive spell that does damage, also plays into how we manage mana. Your comment shows that you see none of these values, nor do you have any insight on the problems, which also means you have nothing to offer in terms of solving them. It has zero value to any reader, whether it is a player or a dev. It is pure garbage, a most disappointing comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    • Many of our talents require a profound revision, plus they are not even organized in an understandable way.
    "'We hold these truths to be self evident: that many of mage talents are terrible and need work in both design and placement.' Cool story."

    This is useless to anyone because it is a claim that there is a problem without saying what it is, nor does it show any evidence of there really being a problem. It's about as useful as saying "Mages feel really clunky and need attention".

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    • The amount of random effects for our specialization has increased in an alarming way. Randomness is not fun, it's frustrating.
    "Ok. 'RNG is bad'. That sure isn't something we've heard repeated a million times already. Doesn't make it right in this case."

    To start, what are you even smoking? The biggest RNG-fest has ever seen, the combination of T18 and PoF, are going to be obsolete. Arcane Explosion's 30% chance to proc AC is replaced by a guaranteed 100%. Multistrike is gone for good, removing another 2x30% multiplier from the dice roll. Your mana level no longer affects your throughput, which means 4AC burn phase strength and duration no longer swing as wildly from AM procs. ALL of these reduce the variance of Arcane.

    This is also one of those classic forum posts that I have a personal grudge against. A lot of players throw out the "RNG is not fun" card as if it were some god-given fact, and think it makes them sound convincing. It really isn't. It only weakens their argument, because "RNG = bad" isn't established at all. It's also really easy to refute, because many of the most successful games in the history of mankind are rooted in the a basic form of randomness: shuffled cards.

    Whether it's poker, or blackjack, or almost any type of card game really, all of them are rooted in the randomness of shuffling the deck. In fact, many players would argue that true skill at card games comes from mitigating bad hands and capitalizing on good ones. If it isn't blatantly obvious already, there wouldn't even be a game if the cards weren't shuffled and randomized.

    If you ever find yourself about to use the "RNG is bad" blanket statement, it's worth rethinking whether you have a point to make at all.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't like using people to make a point, but your post was a perfect showcase of what we should avoid. You made a fancy list with 5 points as if you had a meaningful argument to make, except none of the points were actionable. In other words, any dev reading your list would have found zero reasons to support or dissuade him/her from making a change. The only thing they have learnt is "A person called Northem really doesn't like Arcane". It doesn't tell him what is good and should be kept, it doesn't tell him what is bad and should be changed, it doesn't tell him how things can be changed or why such changes would help.
    Last edited by Komman; 2016-04-27 at 01:24 PM.

  11. #4931
    Burns like this belong in the Fire thread.

  12. #4932
    The raid tests from yesterday

    Xavius Heroic



    Skorpyron Mythic (kill)



    Fire Mage is fine

  13. #4933
    Herald of the Titans Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Teleportation Nexus seems to have begun to be implemented. Looks like one port to each zone, only Val'sharah is active atm. Takes you to the roof of Temple of Elune.

  14. #4934
    Quote Originally Posted by pyrostorm9001 View Post
    Burns like this belong in the Fire thread.
    Burns like that should be burning in hell.

    ... I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Teleportation Nexus seems to have begun to be implemented. Looks like one port to each zone, only Val'sharah is active atm. Takes you to the roof of Temple of Elune.
    That's the portal access choice thing, right?
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  15. #4935
    Herald of the Titans Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    That's the portal access choice thing, right?
    Yeah. Doesn't appear to be two way though, but the Hall teleport is a 1m CD anyway, so...

  16. #4936
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Araitik View Post
    Fire Mage is fine
    I'm sooooo happy to read this!

  17. #4937
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Araitik View Post

    Fire Mage is fine
    Sure it is when you have broken items/gems/gem bonuses to stack crit to +70%

  18. #4938
    Quote Originally Posted by Flow1 View Post
    Sure it is when you have broken items/gems/gem bonuses to stack crit to +70%
    Yeah I was kinda trolling. For Skorpyron test I was slightly overcapped in crit, so I could use int/mastery proc trinket, hence the 600+k DPS I had before I died.
    I don't know when they are gonna fix these stupid bonuses, my two 800 ilvl rings give me 22% crit at level 110 ...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Edit : In other news, Mages got exactly 0 changes in the last build. I guess that having two major artifact talents account for less than 2% of your damage is intended and should feel gratifying.

  19. #4939
    Deleted
    I was wondering, will frost still be the go to PvP spec or might we see some change it that with Legion?

    I play arena's with a healer and mage most of the time and was wondering if he should start looking into other specs.

  20. #4940
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla View Post
    I was wondering, will frost still be the go to PvP spec or might we see some change it that with Legion?

    I play arena's with a healer and mage most of the time and was wondering if he should start looking into other specs.
    Someone said the lack of frostfire bolt will make the spec useless but it might be an exaggeration. I wouldn't be surprised if it's still good. It's likely fire will be better because it appears to be going in a direction that is worse aoe but better single target (not by too much).

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