Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[ro9ue]

I used to like the fact I could basically be immortal by playing my Blood DK in a way where I use CDs at the right time and stack up Death Strike bubbles. Looks like on Alpha that just won't exist.

Death Strike tied to Runic Power instead of runes completely changes the feel of the spec, I don't like it at all. With the rune generation talents, you could basically get a random DS in here and there to help keep that bubble rolling, and you had enough abilities on hand to keep yourself healed. In Legion, it's just way too hard with such a limited kit to really master Blood.

Sad but I have to walk away from this spec. ... I think they ruined it.

[Zorish]

Honestly, my plan is to wait until next build and see what changes we get (including stuff they post about that didn't make it in the build).

did i miss another BDK blue post? O_o

[Deleted]

I don't think so. That said, should be a new build today/tomorrow and I am curious if any of the feedback we have given will be reflected in it (or the post they like to do if changes were made that didn't make it into the build).

[Murderdoll]

The problem I think we will have is soon the developers will throw up their hands and simply say, "We have given Blood several changes, you just cannot be pleased".

They have a direction they want to go in and that does not overlap with what the players desire. There is a serious disconnect here and Celestalon can jump into peoples twitter feeds all he likes and act like a child telling us how we are imagining a gaping hole between player concerns and developer actions, but we see it black and white, we feel it and a lot of the people giving feedback know it.

At the start of the cycle we were told we could make meaningful choices between DPS and Survival. Tradeoffs. This just has not happened. Changing a talent here and there does not add complexity nor does it add exciting gameplay. The bonestorm change is an absolute joke and nothing short of a slap in the face.

The skill celining has been lowered drastically and while that in itself is not a bad thing. Giving players the chance to become better, to challenge themselves and have something to do, is important.

[Xeoshades]

Newest build. Don't want to be a nay-sayer, but looks like its nothing more then a text clean up... and the most recent "shutting down alpha forums" post... Blizzard is mostly set in stone at this point?

[Deleted]

The problem I think we will have is soon the developers will throw up their hands and simply say, "We have given Blood several changes, you just cannot be pleased".

I'm afraid this might happen as well. However, the feedback changed over time because our concerns shifted with each iteration, from most important to ever less important issues, and I'm pretty sure the devs are aware of that.. So far, the devs have addressed most of the issues that were brought up, and hopefully they'll continue to do so.
However, we already got a lot since the beginning of alpha. Most of the mechanical and gameplay concerns have been adressed, and I personally think that DKs are at least OK the way they are now. The issues being brought up now are mostly fantasy-related, as well as the issue of tank gameplay as a whole. Since Legion puts such a focus on fantasy, it's possible they'll address this as well, although it's equally likely they'll just point at leech (I wouldn't disagree with them. It's not been part of the blood DK before, but since their new blood fantasy shifted more towards vampirism it fits extremely well).
The other point of tank gameplay as a whole I'm not sure about either. They might be set on their current tanking model in order to make tanking more accessible (I doubt it would work though), or they might still be discussing it internally, perhaps we'll get a blog post about it at some point. I'm guessing the latter is more likely.

Newest build. Don't want to be a nay-sayer, but looks like its nothing more then a text clean up... and the most recent "shutting down alpha forums" post... Blizzard is mostly set in stone at this point?

It's been one build without changes. There's no way to conclude that blizz is set in stone on blood. Last build contained massive changes, so it's very likely the devs just waited and watched for one week, see how the community reacts to them before iterating further (everything else would be stupid). I already expected not seeing much for blood this week, but I'm sure there will be changes next build or at least the one after that. There's almost no way they'd make such big changes and then not iterate on it further.

[Murderdoll]

Most of the mechanical gameplay issues HAVE NOT been addressed, which is part of the problem. People see buffs and stuff and think ohh ahh.

The spec is still not fun to play by any stretch of the imagination.

[Nayami]

It's been one build without changes. There's no way to conclude that blizz is set in stone on blood. Last build contained massive changes, so it's very likely the devs just waited and watched for one week, see how the community reacts to them before iterating further (everything else would be stupid). I already expected not seeing much for blood this week, but I'm sure there will be changes next build or at least the one after that. There's almost no way they'd make such big changes and then not iterate on it further.

I hope you're right. I'm a little worried though as usually a number of class/specs get a post from Celestalon in their class feedback thread where they are told about upcoming changes in the next build. I thought that no spec got one of these, until the prot pala blue post so there's that single one at least. But then, looking at the warrior feedback thread, Celestalon pretty much told warrior players that there won't be many changes (if any) and that they will focus on tuning warrior spells/talents now.

I just hope that they will fix the few remaining issues with DK specs before moving on to the beta stage.

Just to highlight the things which I'm not particularly happy about (although overall I'm quite satisfied with all 3 specs):

Blood:
- Blood worms proc on Auto Attack crits instead of Ability crits.
- Wraith walk having a talent to break CC. I'd prefer having my sprint and CC breaker as separate spells.
- Exsanguinate not allowing other abilities to be cast during its channel (Not sure if this is still happening)
- I still hate Tightening Grasp with a burning passion as I'd like 2min GG baseline but it seems that I will have to accept it and move on
- Leech during blood shield instead of for a duration after blood shield expires

Frost:
- Icy Talons doesn't work with BoS
- Avalanche only procs from MELEE critical strikes
- Frostscythe not being baseline
- Obliteration having a duration instead of 'your next X attacks' or at least make Frost Strike increase its duration by 1 second
- Sindragosa's Fury long cooldown and it being weak (easily fixed with tuning though)
- Killing Machine (Active - PvP talent) seems really bad and not worth replacing passive KM

Unholy:
- No interaction at all with All Will Serve pet, even having DT apply to this pet would at least provide some interaction
- The level 60 tier is a no brainer, we will (almost) always pick Abomination since it provides extra damage and festering wounds
- I don't like Necrosis. I would prefer not having to weave in DC before every SS, especially with 1.5s GCD. Could at least make it stackable.
- Would like to see FW cap increased while keeping Apocalypse capped at 8 FW (Waste is bad, m'kay?)
- Necrotic Strike not working with FW talents (Bursting Sores, Pestilent Pustules, Castigator, Unholy Frenzy)

[Deleted]

Most of the mechanical gameplay issues HAVE NOT been addressed, which is part of the problem. People see buffs and stuff and think ohh ahh.

The spec is still not fun to play by any stretch of the imagination.

A few of the things they've fixed due to player feedback:
0 mobility (WW isn't exactly good, but it's more than they originally intended)
The whole BS vs MR nonsense at the very beginning
No AoE outside of DnD
Dead talents
Brain-dead gameplay with 0 talent options to alter it
No cc

Until last build, many blood DKs were complaining about our talents, but didn't provide feedback on what should replace it (Not specific talent ideas, but in general). So the devs came up with what we currently have. Now the feedback is "Too much DR/Leech/Boneshield, not enough DS". They'll probably listen again. Claiming it's all over after every build is simply nonsense. Instead, keep providing feedback on what exactly you want changed, and why you want it changed. If you keep claiming the spec is ruined over and over again that doesn't help, all it does is overshadow actual specific concerns.

Small guide to giving good feedback:

"This spec is ruined / The devs don't listen / They probably don't play blood" - Bad, very bad. Feedback like this has 0 value.
"Our gameplay is boring / our talents are bad / The spec feels bad" - Slightly better, but it's missing information. Why is it boring? What would make it less boring? Which talents are bad and why?
"We need slows/movement / We have too much leech / Talent X should do Y instead" Better feedback, as it helps tells the devs what's problematic. But it's missing why it's problematic. (Note: "it feels bad/it's boring" can be a valid reason)
"We need more movement to deal with raid mechanics, for example on boss X... / We have too much leech, which doesn't scale with incoming damage, unlike other tanks, which causes balance issues / Talent X should do Y instead, because Z" That is actually good feedback. Do this. This requires more thought, and takes longer to write down, but it's worth it, as it explains exactly what the problem is and possibly even how to fix it.

[Maxweii]

Them 'giving' us WW shouldn't be noted as listening to feedback. They simply had some builds in between the taking out of DA and adding in WW. It's a joke to think otherwise that they really would have let us go without any mobility option.

[Icedcoffeee]

Them 'giving' us WW shouldn't be noted as listening to feedback. They simply had some builds in between the taking out of DA and adding in WW. It's a joke to think otherwise that they really would have let us go without any mobility option.

Well they buffed WW after the first iteration (which was atrocious). Its still bad, but they did respond.

[Deleted]

Them 'giving' us WW shouldn't be noted as listening to feedback. They simply had some builds in between the taking out of DA and adding in WW. It's a joke to think otherwise that they really would have let us go without any mobility option.

We never had DA on alpha, and we only got WW months into the alpha, after constant bitching, and when it was finally added it was lackluster to the point of uselessness. It required even more bitching to get it to where it is now. And it's still bad. I think it's absolutely fair to assume the devs didn't want DKs to have any movement abilities at all.

[Deleted]

your posts genuinely make me angry, stop thinking blizz cares, all writing good feedback does is expose you as a target, the people who gave good feedback have been insulted/called names/treated like garbage behind closed doors, of course very few are giving good feedback anymore

it took me an afternoon to reshuffle whatever mechanics legion brought into a somewhat playable state, including the time to write it down and put down ideas in a presentable state. one afternoon. if a random person like me can do this in such a pathetic amount of time, people paid for the job and with years of experience under their belt can do it too, and the reason it is not done is that they do not want to.

arguing with brick walls is a waste of time.

[Maxweii]

your posts genuinely make me angry, stop thinking blizz cares, all writing good feedback does is expose you as a target, the people who gave good feedback have all been insulted/called names/treated like garbage behind closed doors, of course noone is giving good feedback anymore

it took me an afternoon to reshuffle whatever mechanics legion brought into a somewhat playable state, including the time to write it down and put down ideas in a presentable state. one afternoon. if a random person like me can do this in such a pathetic amount of time, people paid for the job and with years of experience under their belt can do it too, and the reason it is not done is that they do not want to.

arguing with brick walls is a waste of time.

I can get the salt you have but also, if you're that sensitive to critisism about what you give as feedback then that's more of an issue than what Blizz is doing. Should they be insulting people giving feedback? No. Should people be getting so hurt about it and giving up from it? No.

[Deleted]

0 mobility (WW isn't exactly good, but it's more than they originally intended)

What Maxweii said. Left hand (class designers) didn't know what the right hand (encounter designers) was doing. WW is still utter garbage compared to the other immobile class though.

The whole BS vs MR nonsense at the very beginning

Sort of, but more of a tuning issue. We showed them never using Marrowrend was a better rotation so they tried various things until they added the Haste and higher ICD.

No AoE outside of DnD

That's one.

Dead talents

We still have those.

Brain-dead gameplay with 0 talent options to alter it

Considering that slotting passive talents is superior than the active ones in most cases this isn't true either, at least the talent altering version.

No cc

Maybe? Can't remember people asking for CC specifically instead of better snares but that is what we got.

Small guide to giving good feedback:

[...]

"We need more movement to deal with raid mechanics, for example on boss X... / We have too much leech, which doesn't scale with incoming damage, unlike other tanks, which causes balance issues / Talent X should do Y instead, because Z" That is actually good feedback. Do this. This requires more thought, and takes longer to write down, but it's worth it, as it explains exactly what the problem is and possibly even how to fix it.

Please lets not put the fault at the the players. Aside from there being such "good" feedback as defined by you which was ignored/not acted upon, it is not the players' job to tell Blizz how to fix this. If they can provide suggestions, cool. But if not, that doesn't make their feedback worthless. There is merit to listening to players saying "I don't like playing Blood because it feels so slow when we have to catch up to mobs" or whatever.

I mean look at stuff like the recent WotN nerf, Tombstone or March of the Damned. These talents are utter garbage in their current state and any feedback given to improve them has been ignored so far. Are you seriously going to say that this, too, is our fault? It is not even recent feedback, it has been mentioned a couple of weeks ago.

[Deleted]

Should people be getting so hurt about it and giving up from it? No.

why shouldn't they? no, really, give me a single reason.

do they have an history of listening to what you have to say? no. giving feedback has never been more than an opportunity to open doors (social networks/private forums/invites/ingame nods/career opportunities/whatever), they have very rarely listened to anything written in these threads lol

[Maxweii]

why shouldn't they? no, really, give me a single reason.

do they have an history of listening to what you have to say? no. giving feedback has never been more than an opportunity to open doors (social networks/private forums/invites/ingame nods/career opportunities/whatever), they have very rarely listened to anything written in these threads lol

So instead of giving the devs their players point of view and feeling on how the changes they put into the game feels, being silent and brooding over being insulted is the way to go. Sure.
I mean I expect this sorta argument from people, but not from someone who knows what they are talking about so much. The whole "well hue they aren't even listening to me so why bother saying anything anyways" is such a stale argument.

[Deleted]

This is a strange argument. If you want to discuss generalities or how it should work ideally? Sure, giving feedback is better than not giving feedback because there is always a chance they might listen though it does become an equation of time invested versus gain.

Doesn't change the fact that Mione can do whatever the hell she wants. If she doesn't want to provide feedback (and I definitely understand her reasoning as to why) then no one call tell her otherwise. There is no obligation to do so whatsoever, neither from Blizzard's side or from the DK community.

[Maxweii]

This is a strange argument. If you want to discuss generalities or how it should work ideally? Sure, giving feedback is better than not giving feedback because there is always a chance they might listen though it does become an equation of time invested versus gain.

Doesn't change the fact that Mione can do whatever the hell she wants. If she doesn't want to provide feedback (and I definitely understand her reasoning as to why) then no one call tell her otherwise. There is no obligation to do so whatsoever, neither from Blizzard's side or from the DK community.

I wasn't really arguing against Mione not giving feedback specifically, more as a generalization in response to what Mione wrote that basically said 'don't give feedback it's not worth it'. Using their own personal vendetta to justify telling others not to give feedback when you're a well respected name in a community? Not the smartest thing to do.

[Deleted]

your posts genuinely make me angry, stop thinking blizz cares, all writing good feedback does is expose you as a target, the people who gave good feedback have been insulted/called names/treated like garbage behind closed doors

What exactly are you referring to? That's the first time I've heard of the devs insulting anyone.
Yes, one person can redesign the class in one afternoon into something they think would be fun for them to play. But there are issues with that. There's inevitably something missing, there could be balance issues because of mechanics, it might be broken in pvp/solo play, what you come up with might not be fun for other people, it might even not be fun for yourself. You aren't restricted by time, or implementation details, or even other team members. There's tons of stuff that you simply ignored, but which the devs can't ignore. And keep in mind that the devs have to do the same thing for 35 other specs as well, all the while having to design other parts of the game as well, or at least keeping these designs in mind.
There are so many reasons that can explain why the devs are "not listening to you", but malicious intent is by far the least likely.

Sort of, but more of a tuning issue. We showed them never using Marrowrend was a better rotation so they tried various things until they added the Haste and higher ICD.

And then they realized it still doesn't work, and they turned MR into a maintenance spell.

We still have those.

But far less than a few builds ago. Most of them are a tuning issue now, instead of mechanical ones.

Considering that slotting passive talents is superior than the active ones in most cases this isn't true either, at least the talent altering version.

Tuning issue. But at least we now HAVE gameplay altering talents, we didn't before.

Please lets not put the fault at the the players. Aside from there being such "good" feedback as defined by you which was ignored/not acted upon, it is not the players' job to tell Blizz how to fix this. If they can provide suggestions, cool. But if not, that doesn't make their feedback worthless. There is merit to listening to players saying "I don't like playing Blood because it feels so slow when we have to catch up to mobs" or whatever.

I mean look at stuff like the recent WotN nerf, Tombstone or March of the Damned. These talents are utter garbage in their current state and any feedback given to improve them has been ignored so far. Are you seriously going to say that this, too, is our fault? It is not even recent feedback, it has been mentioned a couple of weeks ago.

You're not forced to give feedback, true. But if you don't, you have no right to complain about them not listening to your concerns.
The example feedback you gave is helpful, as I said. It explains what's the issue and why it's an issue. It's stuff like "The devs don't listen/hate dks" that's bad. There is literally nothing you can gather from feedback like that, except that someone probably doesn't like something. Maybe.
As I said, there's many reasons that can explain feedback not being immediately followed by changes.