Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Smaxy]

All you have to do is just read this thread

P.S. Symbols just got turned into HfB. I'd rather see it removed than play with current iteration.

I'll take it over the previous iteration. HfB > Savage Roar.

Oh also: from doing testing, this change also opens up some gameplay changes via talents. Specifically Vigor and either Subterfuge or Shadow Focus. So.. Another positive.

[Mafic]

I don't like the concept of HFB or Saveage Roar. Why does it have to be a choice about which stinks less lol?

MoS to me should be baselined and then the level 15 talent tier can be reworked to actually offer meaningful game play choices. Outlaw and Assassination level 15 talent tiers respectively are miles better (especially with the recent change to Outlaw's Ghostly Strike to 30e).

[Deleted]

One thing I'd like to maybe see is adding a cooldown on it, at least a second or two. The goal of this would be to prevent players accidentally wasting energy by hitting SoD twice in quick succession. Again, still off the GCD, just to prevent double uses.

That's something very relevant you brought up on the Alpha thread that I didn't even thought about. It really can screw you if you happen to mash a macro twice. I think just giving it its own "internal GCD" is sufficient. I assume you already tested it and has nothing of sorts?

I don't like the concept of HFB or Saveage Roar. Why does it have to be a choice about which stinks less lol?

MoS to me should be baselined and then the level 15 talent tier can be reworked to actually offer meaningful game play choices. Outlaw and Assassination level 15 talent tiers respectively are miles better (especially with the recent change to Outlaw's Ghostly Strike to 30e).

Indeed. It's a no brainer. Right now MoS is essential to make SD more engaging and meaningful, otherwise it's just a means to maintain a buff and cast a slightly better Backstab. I hate the fact that they took away the bursty aspect of SD and placed it in a talent tree. It shouldn't be optional, it should be an important core mechanic. Let alone put it in the same row of a very bad talent in Weaponmaster and an ability that removes the annoying positional requirement, which should also be baseline.

[Smaxy]

I don't like the concept of HFB or Saveage Roar. Why does it have to be a choice about which stinks less lol?

MoS to me should be baselined and then the level 15 talent tier can be reworked to actually offer meaningful game play choices. Outlaw and Assassination level 15 talent tiers respectively are miles better (especially with the recent change to Outlaw's Ghostly Strike to 30e).

I don't like it either at 35sec, I was pushing for lower duration, higher dmg bonus- but as I've said before, it seems very unlikely that they'll completely scrap SoD or significantly alter it.

Agree totally about MoS and lvl 15 tier, brought that up in my post for this build.

- - - Updated - - -

That's something very relevant you brought up on the Alpha thread that I didn't even thought about. It really can screw you if you happen to mash a macro twice. I think just giving it its own "internal GCD" is sufficient. I assume you already tested it and has nothing of sorts?

Correct, I tested it. Also found SoD being off the GCD made Shadow Focus and Vigor/Subterfuge play better. It's hard to describe, you need to experience it firsthand.

[Deleted]

Correct, I tested it. Also found SoD being off the GCD made Shadow Focus and Vigor/Subterfuge play better. It's hard to describe, you need to experience it firsthand.

As it makes one of your 3 Shadowstrikes cost, in essence, 75 energy, I imagine Shadow Focus becomes more meaningful. It's good that this improvement isn't just about casting one more Shadowstrike.

I read someone complaining that Subterfuge is basically useless unless paired with Vigor, did you find that true?

[Deleted]

Finally!!! SoD change makes me happy, getting that GCD back during dance is pretty huge for PvP

Progress is progress.

[Geckoo]

It is a good change, but it's also like a confirmation that the concept won't change.

[dak1]

It's still clunky. You pool your energy, hit your Shadow Dance+SoD macro, and suddenly are missing 35 energy.

It's almost the equivalent of making Shadow Dance cost 35 energy and increase damage by 20% for 35 seconds.

The only reason the energy cost is there is because if that was removed too, it would be absolutely mindless and you'd just macro it in to every stealth/dance, making it effectively a passive... which is probably what it should be anyway (the new Find Weakness).

SoD is not the kind of button Sub Rogues wanted when we felt there wasn't enough to do in stealth. It would add basically the same depth of gameplay if it was a passive (which is why it's a terrible button). And flat damage buffs are boring and were purged for a reason.

[kalaratic]

i think it's kinda funny how WoD, the shitstain of WoW, will be remembered as the golden age for subtlety. i feel like legion will be the expac where the majority of classes are unfun but all the outdoor content makes it fun. kinda like the opposite of WoD

[Jaronicity]

It is a good change, but it's also like a confirmation that the concept won't change.

I think deep down, we all knew this to be true anyway

[Wow]

i think it's kinda funny how WoD, the shitstain of WoW, will be remembered as the golden age for subtlety.

I think Cata was the golden age for sub not this it all went downhill after 5.0 hit.

[Smaxy]

"With the removal of Symbols of Death from the GCD the ability has become even more inconsequential, and thus should be pruned due to it being simply macro'd into Shadow Dance and forgotten. The ability doesn't add any depth to gameplay and isn't a fun mechanic. " -Zholik

Do people actually test the spec before they post on the official forum? If you macro it in with SD and "forget" about it have fun wasting hundreds of energy over the course of an encounter.

You know how I know this? Bc I wanted to see what happened if you did this so I actually tested it.

[shade3891]

"With the removal of Symbols of Death from the GCD the ability has become even more inconsequential, and thus should be pruned due to it being simply macro'd into Shadow Dance and forgotten. The ability doesn't add any depth to gameplay and isn't a fun mechanic. " -Zholik
You know how I know this? Bc I wanted to see what happened if you did this so I actually tested it.

They should just make it so whenever you use Stealth,Shadow Dance or vanish you get the buff..
It really feels like a button for the sake of having an extra button! Useless and not fun!!

Anyway if unchanged i will still macro it, if take some time you can macro so it won't cost you any extra energy!

[Smaxy]

They should just make it so whenever you use Stealth,Shadow Dance or vanish you get the buff..
It really feels like a button for the sake of having an extra button! Useless and not fun!!

Anyway if unchanged i will still macro it, if take some time you can macro so it won't cost you any extra energy!

Oh, you can use two macros or a key modifier. But you still have to actively think of what to do, nether to use/refresh SoD or not. It's not "forgotten". If you macro and forget it, you'll lose lots of energy.

[shade3891]

I'm using Gnomesequencer addon for alot of this stuff, but i think this should work without it aswell.

Macro1: (anywhere on actionbar)
#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/click MultiBarRightButton1
/click MultiBarRightButton2
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();


Macro2 (on MultiBarRightButton1):
/cast [nostealth] Shadow Dance

Macro3 (on MultiBarRightButton2):
/castsequence reset=34 Symbols of Death, stop,

[Deleted]

They should just make it so whenever you use Stealth,Shadow Dance or vanish you get the buff..
It really feels like a button for the sake of having an extra button! Useless and not fun!!

I agree. They could even change the name to something more fitting as well, like... Master of Subtlety?

[Deleted]

i think it's kinda funny how WoD, the shitstain of WoW, will be remembered as the golden age for subtlety. i feel like legion will be the expac where the majority of classes are unfun but all the outdoor content makes it fun. kinda like the opposite of WoD

Mists sub was my favourite, from a PvP perspective.

"With the removal of Symbols of Death from the GCD the ability has become even more inconsequential, and thus should be pruned due to it being simply macro'd into Shadow Dance and forgotten. The ability doesn't add any depth to gameplay and isn't a fun mechanic. " -Zholik

Do people actually test the spec before they post on the official forum? If you macro it in with SD and "forget" about it have fun wasting hundreds of energy over the course of an encounter.

You know how I know this? Bc I wanted to see what happened if you did this so I actually tested it.

^This

SoD is now our version of Heroic Strike, in the sense of its a noob trap to macro it to anything really, you'll end up energy starved or the very least wasting energy.

It goes where my SnD bind was, and now its off the GCD its not hard to press that bind at the same time as dance if you want the buff. Its win win, pve'rs get their extra button, and PvP'rs no longer have to suffer losing that GCD during their burst windows, not that we have to worry about the energy cost with PA pvp talent, but i still won't macro it, as i will be playing with thiefs bargin in BG's no doubt.

Great change, that we've been lobbying for weeks!!!

[Smaxy]

It's the best thing that could've happened IMO, given that they increased duration and energy cost a few builds ago. Id prefer it to have a lower duration and higher damage bonus (I suggested this) but it's clear that's not what they wanted.

[maddnesskhaz]

pve'rs get their extra button

This is 100% not what PvE players wanted when we said "Shadow Dance is meaningless" - Buttons for the sake of buttons do no good; SoD adds no complexity and is boring, the GCD change just makes it more ignorable really, which is best case scenario for such a poor ability.

[Deleted]

You can be sure SoD is not going away, so this change is really big. The only thing left now is to give it an internal GCD which I hope you Alpha guys keep pushing for.

Bit by bit, they've actually been listening to some of our complaints. New Relentless Strikes and Goremaw's Bite helped solve the energy starvation, and now removing SoD from the GCD, while still an underwhelming ability overall, is very much welcome.

It's also a sign that they aren't done with the spec yet, or at least until now. Like I said, sooner or later a blue post should pop up telling us how the spec is finished and that they are happy with it. Until then, just keep up the great feedback on the Alpha thread and perhaps we might get lucky again. It's a bit frustrating not being able to advocate my concerns with the class and spec there, even if they're pretty much what's already been mentioned. Still, I'll bring them up here and what would be my ideas to solve them:

AoE: I don't really mind the multi-dotting and having the worst AoE of all Rogue specs, but we should all agree that it needs to be the very least competitive and more bursty. After all, Sub is the burst spec and dot damage is more of an Assassination thing now. Blizzard also has the chance to finally make Stealth, the main mechanic of Sub, to actually matter during AoE. And it's not through Shadow Nova, an inconsequential passive ability that deals a bit of damage when Shadow Dance runs out, that can fill that role. To enter Shadow Dance for the single purpose of letting out a weak fart when it's over is ridiculous. The solution for me would be to turn Shadow Nova into a Stealth debuff that lasts 5 seconds or so; once the debuff wears out, it releases an explosion that deals a % of the damage dealt to that enemy during the time the debuff was up as Shadow damage to every other enemy in a certain distance. I think this makes Stealth more meaningful and gives us an original mechanic.

Backstab: Honestly, I used to like how Backstab works, but the game has progressed and right now it's simply annoying. Even Ambush got spared of the positional requirement, and I'm pretty sure the only reason they haven't done the same to Backstab is simply because it's named... Backstab. The new Backstab is a shy attempt to minimize the issue, but we all know what really needs to be done. Because having an ability called Backstab being able to hit from all sides is indeed weird, I say to just replace it with Sinister Strike, a classic Rogue builder that has been left unused, and have it be the same as current Backstab but without the positional requirements. Or you could simply replace Backstab with Gloomblade, in the end all it matters it removing the positional requirement.

#SinisterStrikeForSubtlety

Talents: Most talents are boring and clunky. Some rows have one clearly best talent. With Find Weakness gone, MoS becomes its sucessor, but instead of being a core ability if got gutted into a passive; what's worse, it's competing with a useless talent in the shape of Weaponmaster (it's so bad I just get the feeling it's a placeholder) and the ability we all want baseline, Gloomblade. Indeed, in terms of choices the 15 row makes no sense, basically only Gloomblade currently fits the role of a relevant talent for leveling.
75 row should be a PvP row, plain and simple. It's a missed oportunity to introduce some QoL talents.
Taking into account Shadow Techniques, Goremaw's Bite and Shadow Blades it really feels like Sub is swimming in combo points (also from everyone else's feedback). On top of that, in the 90 row only Alacrity doesn't give you even more CPs, and let's not forget how poorly thought out of an ability it is. The general feeling is that you either take Anticipation or you WILL waste CPs. Despite that, Anticipation might actually turn out to not be best option, but that doesn't erase the fact that playing a spec that constantly overcaps on resources is bad game design. Oh, and Marked for Death is yet another talent that gives you even more CPs.

Shadow Dance: It's not meaningful enough. Former SD was great because it was a burst window so strong that you had to keep preparing for every minute it came up. Now, while I really like the current iteration of charged SD, it's been stripped out of its burst capability by removing Find Weakness and making MoS a talent. Right now, Shadowstrike is nothing but a slightly better Backstab, so the main reason why we even care to pop up Stealth is to maintain Symbols of Death active. The solution is obvious: since Symbols of Death is here to stay, at least make MoS baseline, tune it as needed to become the new Find Weakness and have Shadowstrike pack some serious punch, perhaps being a guaranteed Crit.

That's basically all. Most of these concerns have already been brought up several times, but I just felt like sharing my own view.

EDIT: Forgot about Shadow Dance.