Legion classes seem to be in an unfinished state and this is concerning.

[Wootmonkey]

Legion isn't going to be released for 4 months.

They are going to tweak things between now and Aug 31st.

[schwarzkopf]

Why are we still in alpha only 4 months away from release? T

Because they are choosing to call the BETA 'Alpha' for some reason... probably marketing.

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They are going to tweak things between now and Aug 31st.

LOL.... not sure if intentional humour

[Mafic]

Actually this thread is a classic case of naive people throwing quotes of "it's alpha" around like they do every pre expansion when people voice their concerns of upcoming changes or lack of upcoming changes.

The entire build up to this expansion people have voiced their feedback about how classes feel incomplete, lacking an extra button in the rotation etc and it's always met with the same braindead replies of "it's alpha", yes its alpha THAT IS THE POINT of why they are voicing the feedback in the first place so that it gets changed.

It is now 4 months until the expansion is released, we are now at the point where we will not really see any more drastic changes to how the classes play, what you see is what you will get and it is for the most part all number tuning from now on in. How long are we gonna wait before the "its alpha" comments become "you should have voiced your opinions during alpha" when the stuff people have been talking about still does not get changed. Happens every single expansion and it's really irritating to see people just mindlessly comment "it's alpha" to anyone posting feedback about the expansion in the most important feedback stage of an expansion.

Luckily my class and spec seems to be one of the very very few who are actually happy with the vast majority of our stuff and our only main concern is how easy it is to get a certain legendary to remove a big weakness of ours and the fact that we still have an artifact trait that "buffs" psychic horror which was removed quite a few builds ago now.

Shadow Priests are one of the few that have escaped pruning by a thousand cuts that Blizz employed once more for Legion. Other casters are falling on the way side though sadly.

[Deleted]

Shadow Priests are one of the few that have escaped pruning by a thousand cuts that Blizz employed once more for Legion. Other casters are falling on the way side though sadly.

Due to our rework we have not really suffered in the rotational department yes, however we have lost psychic horror, cascade, halo, searing insanity, resurrection, spectral guise, angelic feathers, leap of faith and devouring plague, mind spike is also now currently a poor talent. (in some situations we also have lost twist of fate as it is now in a tier that has good competition but that is nit picking), our pretty poor aoe has actually gotten even worse for legion.

We would welcome the prune for a couple other abilities such as mind vision and shackle undead, shackle being pretty useless outside of pvp dk pets in this orc / demon expansion and looking to again be useless in a demon expansion. Can't have it all.

We are however for the most part really happy, but the vast majority of other specs/classes are not and that is a pretty concerning issue with only 4 months to release which will also include a 1-4 week pre patch

[Taeldorian]

After this patch (4/27/16) ret is looking good for pve, just waiting for tuning to happen so our damage is actually what it should be.

[Artunias]

Also for the fan boys crying "it's only Alpha"

They have straight up posted in multiple class threads recently that there are no changes outside of number tuning coming. So yes, the concerns are legitimate and real. The class team is wildly incompetent. Which is a damn shame, because the other parts of the game are looking pretty good.

[Kryos]

The #1 goal was to ensure WoD Arms did not happen again...Legion Arms is shaping up to be as exciting as watching paint dry.

When the dps is good, that's irrelevant and people will play it.
Check Vanilla Retribution Paladins or Frost Mages... people play the most boring shit ever if the dps is good.

[Letdown]

Looking at the current state of specs, it looks like they are oversimplifying them even more in this expansion. Ability pruning is one reason but the gameplay is globally more simplistic for almost every spec. While it may attract more casual players, it may also scare players who like being challenged. Not sure it's a good move from Blizzard.

Some specs are definitely in an unfinished state at the moment. 4 months to go and beta has not yet started.

This is a bit of a false narrative. Over-saturation of utility actually takes away from difficulty, not adds to it. If every class is a swiss army knife, then there's no point in ever bringing a swiss army knife. A lot of the complaints of "ZOMG THERE'S NO MORE UTILITY WTF M8" is a bit of a false-narrative of a difficulty scale decrease because having every tool for every situation is a false sense of "difficulty" to begin with. When you look at the nostalgia-boners in the community (Vanilla, BC, Wrath), utility was no where near as broad as it was post-wrath. You still had advantages to bringing certain classes, some classes were better at interrupting, etc. Always having the tools available and recognizing/utilizing them isn't inherently that difficult. Knowing how to work around the absence of a tool, or planning to make sure you have that tool available, is far more difficult imo.

While WildStar failed on many levels, its PvE design was excellent, but it was excellent because classes had limited and specific utility that they could bring to create synergy. I think the playerbase in Legion is struggling with Blizzard heading back toward their 2008 and before design paradigm of synergy over utility.

People are complaining about simplified rotations or whatever, but then they're specifically taking passive talents to prove that point. I hate to break it to you guys, but both Pandaria and WoD were filled with "hit the glowing button," and even if Blizzard came up with a spec that required a degree in advanced theoretical mathematics to play, people would just use WeakAuras or other add-ons to play it for them.

That narrative is false. You want to whine because you want to whine. But if you're going to do that, then at least admit it to yourself.

As far as Arms and Brewmaster looking boring...I disagree with the videos I've seen, but I'm not in alpha. What I do know is the gloom and doom before anyone touches anything, or the gross hyperbole to make a point because you're a 1337 PvPer and you know it all, is getting old.

[Deleted]

When the dps is good, that's irrelevant and people will play it.
Check Vanilla Retribution Paladins or Frost Mages... people play the most boring shit ever if the dps is good.

From memory frost mages were played because in vanilla bosses had elemental resistances, i do not remember ever seeing a level 60 ret paladin who had not just dinged until after the tbc pre patch although i was horde and my only real memories of paladins were bubble hearthing and being out of mana because of my mana burn

Your point though is valid and true, Tbc warlocks are the biggest testament to that, they literally just spammed shadow bolt.

[Wootmonkey]

Because they are choosing to call the BETA 'Alpha' for some reason... probably marketing.

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LOL.... not sure if intentional humour

I try to sprinkle in sarcasm whenever possible

[kalaratic]

so many naive people saying "it's only alpha". if they haven't been listening to the majority of complaints for the past MONTHS, they aren't making major class changes now that it is so close to beta. the devs have this notion that every spec must be bland, boring, with no depth and they achieved that goal.

[Wootmonkey]

so many naive people saying "it's only alpha". if they haven't been listening to the majority of complaints for the past MONTHS, they aren't making major class changes now that it is so close to beta. the devs have this notion that every spec must be bland, boring, with no depth and they achieved that goal.

I don't think there will be any major mechanic overhaul, but they have 4 months to tune the classes.

Some classes need more than others, but for the most part (at least with the classes I am looking at) things look decent.

Also, classes don't need bloated toolkits to be satisfying to play.

[Mafic]

Due to our rework we have not really suffered in the rotational department yes, however we have lost psychic horror, cascade, halo, searing insanity, resurrection, spectral guise, angelic feathers, leap of faith and devouring plague, mind spike is also now currently a poor talent. (in some situations we also have lost twist of fate as it is now in a tier that has good competition but that is nit picking), our pretty poor aoe has actually gotten even worse for legion.

We would welcome the prune for a couple other abilities such as mind vision and shackle undead, shackle being pretty useless outside of pvp dk pets in this orc / demon expansion and looking to again be useless in a demon expansion. Can't have it all.

We are however for the most part really happy, but the vast majority of other specs/classes are not and that is a pretty concerning issue with only 4 months to release which will also include a 1-4 week pre patch

This is true that a lot has been lost but the Shadow Priests are still diverse. The problem is some specs have lost so much it border to comical. An Assassination Rogue with no Blind and Gouge? Why not choose an Unholy DK instead if you want a melee with spread DoT damage? What is the appeal of an Assassination Rogue in Legion? Especially with the lost of Dispatch?

[Tharkkun]

The recent blue posts about Brewmasters and Arms Warriors in no uncertain terms said they are happy where the specs are and that means they are pretty much 99% done with the tuning that remains.

That means the abilities themselves are working from a mechanical standpoint.

First you design an ability. Then you code/implement it. Then you test if it works as you intended it to. Are there bugs? When you use ability X does ability Y suddenly not work? Etc. Etc. Once that's all completed then you start to tune. You can't tune when the abilities themselves have bugs. Otherwise you buff something, only to nerf it a week later after you find that xyz was buffing it by accident.

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The bigger problem is prepatch is around the corner and it seems that there is a danger of specs falling the wayside as it did happen in WoD.

Pre-patch will go to PTR for at least a month. Beta testing will continue to happen separately of the PTR for the prepatch. After the Pre-patch goes live they will continue testing Beta up until a few days before launch. We'll get a volley of hotfixes and tuning during launch week. I specifically recall Hunters getting those last minute changes to make them viable.

[Mafic]

That means the abilities themselves are working from a mechanical standpoint.

First you design an ability. Then you code/implement it. Then you test if it works as you intended it to. Are there bugs? When you use ability X does ability Y suddenly not work? Etc. Etc. Once that's all completed then you start to tune. You can't tune when the abilities themselves have bugs. Otherwise you buff something, only to nerf it a week later after you find that xyz was buffing it by accident.

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Pre-patch will go to PTR for at least a month. Beta testing will continue to happen separately of the PTR for the prepatch. After the Pre-patch goes live they will continue testing Beta up until a few days before launch. We'll get a volley of hotfixes and tuning during launch week. I specifically recall Hunters getting those last minute changes to make them viable.

No one is talking about damage tuning. But thanks for the bump I guess? ???

[Letdown]

No one is talking about damage tuning. But thanks for the bump I guess? ???

That's part of the problem though. Feedback clarity can sometimes be obfuscated by poor tuning.

For the sake of easy example, let's say Assassination rogues have 5 different finishers, but they have 1 finisher that 1 shots everything. Rogue immediately becomes "We only have 1 finisher!" not because the other 4 finishers don't exist, but because only 1 is viable.

Now in all fairness, balance tuning hasn't REALLY been that egregious for the most part, but it serves as an example where balance tuning can make a huge difference in how a class plays. You can have 400 abilities on a class, but if only 6 of them are viable, that class has 6 buttons, not 400.

[Mafic]

That's part of the problem though. Feedback clarity can sometimes be obfuscated by poor tuning.

For the sake of easy example, let's say Assassination rogues have 5 different finishers, but they have 1 finisher that 1 shots everything. Rogue immediately becomes "We only have 1 finisher!" not because the other 4 finishers don't exist, but because only 1 is viable.

Now in all fairness, balance tuning hasn't REALLY been that egregious for the most part, but it serves as an example where balance tuning can make a huge difference in how a class plays. You can have 400 abilities on a class, but if only 6 of them are viable, that class has 6 buttons, not 400.

I am going to have to disagree because there is reasons beyond damage to use an ability...as there is synergy between abilities, feedback, priority, rotation, interaction with stat values. In short, no tuning is not going to fix the mess that Brewmasters are in. You are literally simply there and not playing your character.

[Azgraal]

How dare they have unfinished stuff in an alpha/beta version that's a couple versions behind the internal work and four months before release??

[Mafic]

Regarding the comments on interactivity, we've noticed that this seems to go hand in hand with whether you're still trying to treat ISB as an always-up thing or not. So much of the gameplay is tied to intelligently using your abilities right now, and perhaps it's too easy to gloss over that and think that A) Purify was nerfed (it wasn't), B) Purify is less important than ISB (it's not), or C) you should be keeping ISB up in order to survive (you shouldn't).

I'm curious to hear how people who are making use of both ISB and Purify feel.

EDIT: Same with Gift of the Ox. Skilled Brewmasters should be actively managing Gift of the Ox with very similar gameplay to how Expel Harm was used before. What happens when you try that?

EDIT 2: Further example: We're finding skilled Brewmasters are virtually unkillable right now, significantly overpowered.

Brewmasters are "overpowered" to Blizzard..meanwhile mythic level tanks on the alpha forums posting the spec is broken are somehow doing it "wrong".

[Deleted]

It's funny, if specs were 100% done people would be yelling "Legion must be releasing in 2 months!", now that some specs still need quite a bit of work "Legion is doomed! Nothing will be ready for the release date!" what the hell