Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[AeneasBK]

Something else then. it was 11 years ago. There was a raid frame we used in vanilla, and it wasnt perl.

Grid was what we were first recommended when we started raiding in TBC... If that rings any bells.

[gamingmuscle]

Something else then. it was 11 years ago. There was a raid frame we used in vanilla, and it wasnt perl.

CTraid? I think that was one of the must have mods.

[Gadzooks]

Grid was what we were first recommended when we started raiding in TBC... If that rings any bells.

Grid may have been it.

[Typhoria]

What was your progression? You didn't have to farm much until you were at/past c'thun, really.
At least imo. Most of the early vanilla bosses weren't dying because of numbers, but bad play.

That was a problem due to raid size too I think. People wanted to fill the 40 man raid groups and didn't care who they got, when realistically MC could be cleared with 25-30 competent people of appropriate gear level. Those 10-15 people could bomb the group, or disregard dispelling in the case of MC. This is also the reason guilds collapsed at Razorgore. Since groups had to be spread out, there was much less room for slack in the first phase.

[Putin-Chan]

Thank god this is now a megathread.

[kary]

That was a problem due to raid size too I think. People wanted to fill the 40 man raid groups and didn't care who they got, when realistically MC could be cleared with 25-30 competent people of appropriate gear level. Those 10-15 people could bomb the group, or disregard dispelling in the case of MC. This is also the reason guilds collapsed at Razorgore. Since groups had to be spread out, there was much less room for slack in the first phase.

Yep. You didn't need to know how to play until at least ragnaros. All you had to do for MC was farm BRD for enough FR to live long enough to see bosses die.
While nostalrius was trending, there was a video of a 32 min BWL clear. That's what would happen if a group of 40 competent people did the instances. On every private server, people basically clear all the content in a reset because they weren't complete shit.

[Santoryu]

NO. I know your elitist ego wants that to be true, but it was a symbiotic relationship - raiders needed and bought the mats and pots and such that non-raiders gathered and made and sold. The entire game was an ecosystem, with support at all levels, feeding other parts of the game. Leveling was easily THE focus of the game, as it took so long, and there was so much to do. Raiding was a goal for *some* players, but not all.

I wouldnt and am not saying raiding shouldn't have existed, and that it wasnt part of the greater whole, but you're exaggerating it's place in the game wildly, and it's hilarious. Wow was successful because 6 million players bought subs - most of whom probably never stepped foot in a raid instance. The game would have died without them. Casual play paid for raids to continue to be made, along with everything else in the game.

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Something else then. it was 11 years ago. There was a raid frame we used in vanilla, and it wasnt perl.

Agreed. Vanilla was more casual friendly than what we have now, mainly because there was challenging and rewarding content to be had at all stages: questing, 5 mans, 10 mans, 20 mans and 40 mans. Those who didn't have time to raid could find accomplishment elsewhere and feel satisfied with their time spent. This is no longer the case.

[cirdanx]

Totalbiscuit and Jesse Cox weigh in on the issue:

Look, i love these guys and i´m a long time fan of all three of them, BUT:

There are some faults with this. I do agree with most they said, but Jesse was always a Blizzard fanboy and so are the others. Look TB hasn´t played WoW in ages, Genna did, but he doesn´t know the state of the game and for example, his reasoning about players bleeding because it´s just the end of the x-pac is factually wrong.

Another point was that Nost could barely do it, it´s also wrong, the server ran very well. Also, his argument about the real accounts/active players is nonsense. Yes we don´t know how high the real numbers is, but the same can be said about Blizzard. How many of their subs are bots? Goldsellers? Multiple account holders? There sub number were NEVER really accurate as the asian area doesn´t even have subs like the west does anyway.

Dodger had not much to say anything about it and also was never that big into WoW.

But they made good points, Blizzard had every right to shut them down and it wasn´t really legal. But that´s kinda beside the point, because it´s more about players wanting Blizzard to make one. As Jesse said, the question gets always asked at Blizzcon. This is true. They always said no, this is true too. But here is another thing that is true, their word doesn´t mean shit. The past shows that they change their stance on subjects they were formerly against.

I really dislike Jesse´s argument about where the rage comes from. One reason it came after it, is because many didn´t even know that this existed but are in favor of Blizzard making one, another is that Blizzard was long silence and their comment was PR crap, that ironicly even showed they didn´t listen (pristine is not vanilla). Yes there will always be people who just jump on the bandwagon. But i can´t even fault players who are unhappy with Blizz after WoD. They certainly lost a lot of fan credit.

But in the end, TB and Jesse said it themselves, Blizzard should offer some sort or vanilla/TBC servers and both also agree that the game went downhill after BC/during WotlK. Most of it is just talk about copyright and what is legal or not, but again, that´s not really the point.

[Canderous1]

Welcome to 3 days ago and some 700 pages or so.


No.
(Operating costs were covered for the next 3 months - until end of June - and 3 months was the only chunk of time that could be payed for at a time on the provider)

haha. sorry, not going to read 700+ pages about nostralius. ty for the info though.

[cirdanx]

Agreed. Vanilla was more casual friendly than what we have now, mainly because there was challenging and rewarding content to be had at all stages: questing, 5 mans, 10 mans, 20 mans and 40 mans. Those who didn't have time to raid could find accomplishment elsewhere and feel satisfied with their time spent. This is no longer the case.

Yes but today is aslo more casual friendly, it just fails to retain the players so i semi-agree.

Raiding became more difficult, ONLY mythic. The fights became more complex, more bloated. If that´s a good thing or not is open to debate. (i think it´s not good) The rest of the game is more casual and instant rewarding than anything ever before. You can deck out in hero raid gear in a month, let´s say two months if you are slow. There is no need to do mythic, unless you do it for prestige. Thanks to them, and dummies who defend them, they treat different difficulties as content and people get burned out on it.

Since everything else is easy as f*ck, you get a stream of newer players who can´t play their class and then hit the raiding wall. But there is not much reason for them to improve and this is why there is NO real flesh blood for high end progression guilds and they struggle to find people to play with.

This is why they are slowly dying out, just look at Paragon. Yes they are a finish (mostly) only guild but you can also see others needing to restart (Method/Serenity) or others needing to go together (Nihilum&SK Gaming). Or older once just leaving, because they were sick of the direction. There is hardly any race anymore and not many real progression guilds left.

And why do we have this system in place? So that your average grandma can see the content in lfr when she is awake for a few hours. The whole system is a disaster, if you are interested in progression you run out of things to do very fast and if you are the majority you also run out of content very fast, but hey, at least we have gimmicks like pet battles and facebook games in the game.

Great, really great and nothing changes this is in Legion either.

[kary]

Yes but today is aslo more casual friendly, it just fails to retain the players so i semi-agree.

Raiding became more difficult, ONLY mythic. The fights became more complex, more bloated. If that´s a good thing or not is open to debate. (i think it´s not good) The rest of the game is more casual and instant rewarding than anything ever before. You can deck out in hero raid gear in a month, let´s say two months if you are slow. There is no need to do mythic, unless you do it for prestige. Thanks to them, and dummies who defend them, they treat different difficulties as content and people get burned out on it.

Since everything else is easy as f*ck, you get a stream of newer players who can´t play their class and then hit the raiding wall. But there is not much reason for them to improve and this is why there is NO real flesh blood for high end progression guilds and they struggle to find people to play with.

This is why they are slowly dying out, just look at Paragon. Yes they are a finish (mostly) only guild but you can also see others needing to restart (Method/Serenity) or others needing to go together (Nihilum&SK Gaming). Or older once just leaving, because they were sick of the direction. There is hardly any race anymore and not many real progression guilds left.

And why do we have this system in place? So that your average grandma can see the content in lfr when she is awake for a few hours. The whole system is a disaster, if you are interested in progression you run out of things to do very fast and if you are the majority you also run out of content very fast, but hey, at least we have gimmicks like pet battles and facebook games in the game.

Great, really great and nothing changes this is in Legion either.

again, players asked for this. People who didn't see end bosses asked for this.
Not many people saw end bosses as current content. Vanilla, TBC, WoTLK were far less inclusive. It doesn't bother me, since I've seen all the relevant bosses, but if people cry out that "our sub fees pay for content we don't see" and blizzard makes it so they can see the content, who is at fault?

Anyway, whatever. I still think LFR is a horrible thing and is unnecessary, but I understand why it's there. Without LFR, you'd have something like 50% of the population stuck on gorefiend N, or if mythic were the only difficulty, likely stuck on HFA for months.

[Santoryu]

Yes but today is aslo more casual friendly, it just fails to retain the players so i semi-agree.

Raiding became more difficult, ONLY mythic. The fights became more complex, more bloated. If that´s a good thing or not is open to debate. (i think it´s not good) The rest of the game is more casual and instant rewarding than anything ever before. You can deck out in hero raid gear in a month, let´s say two months if you are slow. There is no need to do mythic, unless you do it for prestige. Thanks to them, and dummies who defend them, they treat different difficulties as content and people get burned out on it.

Since everything else is easy as f*ck, you get a stream of newer players who can´t play their class and then hit the raiding wall. But there is not much reason for them to improve and this is why there is NO real flesh blood for high end progression guilds and they struggle to find people to play with.

This is why they are slowly dying out, just look at Paragon. Yes they are a finish (mostly) only guild but you can also see others needing to restart (Method/Serenity) or others needing to go together (Nihilum&SK Gaming). Or older once just leaving, because they were sick of the direction. There is hardly any race anymore and not many real progression guilds left.

And why do we have this system in place? So that your average grandma can see the content in lfr when she is awake for a few hours. The whole system is a disaster, if you are interested in progression you run out of things to do very fast and if you are the majority you also run out of content very fast, but hey, at least we have gimmicks like pet battles and facebook games in the game.

Great, really great and nothing changes this is in Legion either.

Well said.

again, players asked for this. People who didn't see end bosses asked for this.
Not many people saw end bosses as current content. Vanilla, TBC, WoTLK were far less inclusive. It doesn't bother me, since I've seen all the relevant bosses, but if people cry out that "our sub fees pay for content we don't see" and blizzard makes it so they can see the content, who is at fault?

Anyway, whatever. I still think LFR is a horrible thing and is unnecessary, but I understand why it's there. Without LFR, you'd have something like 50% of the population stuck on gorefiend N, or if mythic were the only difficulty, likely stuck on HFA for months.

The players asked for this...hmm...why didn't Blizzard turn around and say "you think you do, but you don't"?

Also, the sub fee you pay is for access to the game and support, it's not a free pass to beat the game.

[kary]

Well said.



The players asked for this...hmm...why didn't Blizzard turn around and say "you think you do, but you don't"?

Also, the sub fee you pay is for access to the game and support, it's not a free pass to beat the game.

Demons only die when killed in the twisting nether.
You only kill archi in the twisting nether in mythic

They say "you think you do, but you don't" because of their previous experience with whiners. Yep.

[Typhoria]

The players asked for this...hmm...why didn't Blizzard turn around and say "you think you do, but you don't"?

Also, the sub fee you pay is for access to the game and support, it's not a free pass to beat the game.

I feel that in the interest of a growing game, they are interested in showing off their material to everyone. If the player seeks the challenge they will go further than just tourism mode.

They don't want to backtrack to a primitive version of their game. They understand that if there is "no content" now, when people clear vanilla content they don't want to risk people complaining about nothing to do there or worse unsub and have that whole business venture wasted.
They need to get the *feel* of the game back to vanilla, but not go back where everything takes tons of time just to get a group together.

[Eleccybubb]

Nostalrius. More like NOT-stalrius AMIRITE?

[Bapestar]

again, players asked for this. People who didn't see end bosses asked for this.
Not many people saw end bosses as current content. Vanilla, TBC, WoTLK were far less inclusive. It doesn't bother me, since I've seen all the relevant bosses, but if people cry out that "our sub fees pay for content we don't see" and blizzard makes it so they can see the content, who is at fault?

Anyway, whatever. I still think LFR is a horrible thing and is unnecessary, but I understand why it's there. Without LFR, you'd have something like 50% of the population stuck on gorefiend N, or if mythic were the only difficulty, likely stuck on HFA for months.

Lol what? Btw I never saw some content in Vanilla, TBC, and WoTLK. But I was fine with that because I knew I wasn't as skilled and didn't put in alot of time and effort in my toon. Not all players asked for LFR.

[Ielenia]

his reasoning about players bleeding because it´s just the end of the x-pac is factually wrong.

Really? Factually wrong? Are you really going to stand there and claim that no one that unsubbed from WoW did so because of the content drought, with the intention of returning for Legion? That none have left the game simply to take a break while the next expansion doesn't go live? Have you asked every single player that left to be able to say he is factually wrong?

[kary]

Lol what? Btw I never saw some content in Vanilla, TBC, and WoTLK. But I was fine with that because I knew I wasn't as skilled and didn't put in alot of time and effort in my toon. Not all players asked for LFR.

But a substantial amount did. They agreed that the content should be available for everyone. I disagreed with them but I don't sit here throwing an internet tantrum about it.

[Deleted]

Except we're not delusional to think that just because a company made a mistake it means said company is 'incompetent'.

Except thats not even close to what your whole previous rant was about, nor what the people your argued against said or implied and you are now just backpeddling to some hyperbolic 'Blizzard is incompotent' strawman that another whiteknight started out of nowhere, just like that that Overwatch thing you tried to throw at me that popped out of nowhere.

But its all okay now I repeat myself:

At least we come to the conlusion where you admit its pure speculation, Blizzard can indeed do wrong and that includes everything regarding Vanilla server too and you closeminded whiteknights have no actual argument to refuse peoples arguments in favour of retro server with the appeal to Blizzards authority and all you can do is continue to pretend to sit on a high horse made of pure blind trust.

You can now have the last word to make yourself feel better in continued denial and delusion.

[Orby]

If Blizzard release private servers lets say 6 months down the line, I am sure people still wouldn't be happy. Coming soon, a "This isnt what I wanted" thread.

Blizzard can't win. I feel for them I really do.