[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[keqe]

The best fix I can think of without changing any mechanics would be to increase base stagger to something like 60-70%, and ISB made around 20%. (Fort brew stagger+others removed to make this balancing hell easier).

That way, our "ordinary" mitigation tool is to simply purify often, a lot. Pretty much we just purify. ISB is only used for massive tank killing hits, at cost of purify frequency. We probably take very low direct hits from everything but without purifying often the stagger will cause both DPS taken and damage in short interval to rise quickly.


At least that way we'd "only" have to worry about horrible offensive rotation (I guess subjective though) and GotO problems.

[Leblue]

As much as I disagree with some changes and the direction of tanking in general as it stands now in Legion, telling them what they're doing "wrong" is like telling them chocolate isn't as good as vanilla and strawberry is the worst thing ever. I think that for an absolute base to appeal to a newer generation of tanks (maybe even some older ones who aren't as big a fan of MoP or even WoD tanking) things are going in the right direction.

If anything, argue more if per a more hardcover preference seeking extra depth or ways to push extra throughput tanks are in general lacking and pointing out ways with what we currently have now can be tweaked to provide us with this (which is where talent trees should shine like a beacon of hope to everyone). Right now I think talents for at least Brewmaster is weak in this regard but it's nothing that can't be fixed.

The core base gameplay is there, and I think pushing for talent changes rather than base rotation changes will get further in making the spec better. Protection Paladins getting Seraphim back is an example of this actually being possible.

[keqe]

I think that for an absolute base to appeal to a newer generation of tanks (maybe even some older ones who aren't as big a fan of MoP or even WoD tanking) things are going in the right direction.

Newer generation of tanks won't like legion tanking because it won't make them feel powerful. "Regular" players want to feel powerful themselves and that is why DPS specs and "what is the best DPS class" majority mentality is well alive.

MoP iteration was probably the most popular and "veterans" even complained that people went tanks for just "dem deeps" since vengeance made them feel powerful. In MoP they did the DPS and were tough so it was probably the era tanks were the most popular.

In legion tanks are made to be weaker and more in hands of healer and thus the appeal for "majority" goes lower. How simple it is is irrelevant. They don't care or know better. That's how I see it.

[fringemoo]

Re: cooldowns of other classes you forgot Rage of the Sleeper for druid, 1.5m cd, 33% dr for 20 seconds. And probably a bunch of others from the other classes artifacts.

Pretty sure blizzard considers those as part of the toolkit, ie. they 'balance' classes with all artifact abilities.

[Deleted]

Re: cooldowns of other classes you forgot Rage of the Sleeper for druid, 1.5m cd, 33% dr for 20 seconds. And probably a bunch of others from the other classes artifacts.

Yeah, as i said: I only spotted basline abilities because it's crap to design a class around gear (and the artifact is gear) and if think on the duration of the prepatch (and the raiding while waiting on release) i'm a little bit scared.

[Brewschii]

On the new generation issue: It's an interesting question. Maybe the new tank model will be better for new tanks, but maybe it will be harder for them. The specs might be easier to play in one sense, because they have fewer spells etc., but here's the flip side: When your survivability is less in your own hands, it's harder to learn how to play. It's harder even to know what went wrong when you died, or whose fault it is. That might mean a lot of new tanks struggle for a long time without even realizing they're struggling. For ones who know they have a problem, it's harder to work on fixing it because the feedback mechanisms aren't as clear. For new players, there could be a ton of finger-pointing, mutual ignorance, and so on. The thought of LFR or even PUG raids in a healer-dependent scenario gives me chills. Then add a lot of new players in new roles -- even worse.

On live, here are the basics of learning to tank (not necessarily in this order; all are required):
1. Learn to keep up your AM
2. Learn to press CDs at the right time
3. Learn to taunt / get aggro and control and position mobs

Once you get the hang of this baseline stuff, you should be at least acceptable in dungeons, LFR, and Normal modes. Then you can start branching out into advanced survivability, or even better positioning, or utility, or doing more DPS, or whatever. In Legion, I'm concerned that new tanks won't get clear enough signals whether they're even doing #1 and #2 right.

For similar reasons, it may be harder for less experienced / less wonky players to evaluate tanks. Sure, they might have fewer abilities, buffs, and CDs to watch for, but it complicates things if you have to consider the possibility that you have a healing problem, not a tanking problem -- or both. It already takes a pretty careful analysis of logs and a strong understanding of the specs to evaluate a tank's performance beyond "did he die?" and "did he keep x buff up? / did he cast y spell z times?" Legion might import some of that messiness into the simplest of questions: "did he die?"

[keqe]

Regarding the comments on interactivity, we've noticed that this seems to go hand in hand with whether you're still trying to treat ISB as an always-up thing or not. So much of the gameplay is tied to intelligently using your abilities right now, and perhaps it's too easy to gloss over that and think that A) Purify was nerfed (it wasn't), B) Purify is less important than ISB (it's not), or C) you should be keeping ISB up in order to survive (you shouldn't).

I'm curious to hear how people who are making use of both ISB and Purify feel.

EDIT: Same with Gift of the Ox. Skilled Brewmasters should be actively managing Gift of the Ox with very similar gameplay to how Expel Harm was used before. What happens when you try that?

EDIT 2: Further example: We're finding skilled Brewmasters are virtually unkillable right now, significantly overpowered.

-Celestalon


Top kek

we all are just shitters.

Guys, remember to be polite and constructive. No subtle insults because blizzard wouldn't do that right?

[Inuyaki]

Yeah, so sad that everyone just sucks at this high ceiling spec

[keqe]

-Celestalon

[Hebb]

So can any skilled brewmaster teach me how to actively manage Gift of the Ox?

[Rilas13]

After reading Celestalon's post iv decided to hop off the bandwagon, I know all tanks in Legion are loosing quite a bit of sturdiness. But since I can't test anything for myself I don't want to assume its terrible until I try it.

Most people didn't like BM far before we could try it due to loosing beloved spells, and no I don't like that we are seemingly so passive now. I would prefer Elusive brew to a passive dodge bonus that is our new mastery. And the concept of healing at all(GoTo) I thought was going out of the window so I'm a little sad we are more about grabbing spheres rather than holding off death better, that includes Celestial Fortune.

I see a lot of passive RNG on our lineup. Which is disheartening, we should be the active tank. My perception of the class fantasy is always in motion, while many other specs are sturdy because they are covered in huge armor and can take a hit, while we are suppose to move around the damage. Right? Did I misinterpret that? Also on that note, is it that we were the mobile tank, until DH came along and became the more mobile tank? Curious what people think.

On a different topic though, how many people have tried all of the other tank specs as well as used BM as intended?

[Deleted]

Again: May some of the US posters can post it under Celestalon post? Would love it!

This is a joke, is it? I mean...What?

Purify was nerfed (it wasn't)

100% > 50% isn't a nerf? o.O

Purify is less important than ISB (it's not), or C) you should be keeping ISB up in order to survive (you shouldn't).

Ehm...If you getting completey smashed without ISB up there IS need to keep it up.

Same with Gift of the Ox. Skilled Brewmasters should be actively managing Gift of the Ox with very similar gameplay to how Expel Harm was used before. What happens when you try that?

What the hell? Did you ever test is by yourself in Alpha and not on you "cool" simulation tools? It's really cool to move 10 yard, move the boss to a shit position and get all the rage from the raid for a fucking 200k heal.

EDIT 2: Further example: We're finding skilled Brewmasters are virtually unkillable right now, significantly overpowered.

Rofl. Jeha, you can be killed with 2 auto attacks but we are overpowered.

My Legion hype getting destroyed.Really. Because you not play the class, you don't mind about feedback. You say we are OP but we'll become extinct if we went live lika that.

Good job. Really.good.job!

[keqe]

Totally possible. That is what is more concerning to us; that even skilled and experienced tanks aren't understanding the significance of their abilities or how to use them. Perhaps it just takes more time for the community to adjust to the new gameplay, in this case. Or perhaps there's a presentation problem in the abilities.

-celestalon

GIT

GUD


edit: new quote

You're maintaining ISB, not Purifying much, dying to Stagger DoT, and getting few Gift of the Ox orbs. Those things are related.

You should be using ISB to maximize how much Purify clears, not solely for the smoothing.

You have a large health pool: use it. If you're above 75% health, using ISB is probably a waste. It's smoothing when you don't need smoothing, and it's reducing the number of GotO orbs that you're creating.

Gift of the Ox is absolutely massive, but it requires actively playing around your health pool to maximize.

So the trick is to hover at 10% HP to gain GotO to survive?

[Rilas13]

So the trick is to hover at 10% HP to gain GotO to survive?

DK's played that game for years, I guess its our turn lol.

[Ultramad]

So from what I'm reading, we get a weakaura that puts jesus in the middle of our screen when we hit <75% health, but do not die. At that moment, we hit ISB, then wait for Stagger to turn red, hit Purify. At that moment, provided we're not already dead from our healer having a heart attack since we're more than likely at 20% health, we start looking for glowing orbs and pray they're not in additional fire.

Idk, I mean I like minesweeper, but this seems like there's more bombs than squares.

[fringemoo]

....So the trick is to hover at 10% HP to gain GotO to survive?

Yes, this is how their formula works, the only issue with it is that no sane tank is going to intentionally hover at 30% to get orbs (or ask their healers not to heal) since it'll lead to you getting literally global-ed.

[(0.75 * Damage / MaxHealth) * (3 - 2 * HealthPercentAfterDamage)]

Also I'm not sure how he expects this to work, say you're at 30% after the hit so the right part of the equation is *2.4, left part needs to be at least .42 to have 100% to spawn an orb, which leads to damage / maxhealth needing to be at least .56, meaning you have to have been hit for at least 56% of you hp in that singular hit.

So yes, orbs do not have a cooldown, but they are so heavily tied to you being on low health after the hit AND the hit needing to be significant for them to spawn that you won't be relying on them for anything.

As a tank when you're at 30% you start 'panicking' ie. looking for ways to save yourself, and strafing quarter of a mile if you notice an orb is not one of those ways. Unless that's the intended 'mechanic'.

[Muddler]

DK's played that game for years, I guess its our turn lol.

I'd rather have DS than Ox Orbs tho.

[keqe]

Tank: Thanks healer you killed me.

Healer: What, I healed you full as fast as I could

Tank EXACTLY

[Ultramad]

Yes, this is how their formula works, the only issue with it is that no sane tank is going to intentionally hover at 30% to get orbs (or ask their healers not to heal) since it'll lead to you getting literally global-ed.

[(0.75 * Damage / MaxHealth) * (3 - 2 * HealthPercentAfterDamage)]

Also I'm not sure how he expects this to work, say you're at 30% after the hit so the right part of the equation is *2.4, left part needs to be at least .42 to have 100% to spawn an orb, which leads to damage / maxhealth needing to be at least .56, meaning you have to have been hit for at least 56% of you hp in that singular hit.

So yes, orbs do not have a cooldown, but they are so heavily tied to you being on low health after the hit AND the hit needing to be significant for them to spawn that you won't be relying on them for anything.

As a tank when you're at 30% you start 'panicking' ie. looking for ways to save yourself, and strafing quarter of a mile if you notice an orb is not one of those ways. Unless that's the intended 'mechanic'.

We're going to get a more detailed answer
"@ArroganceGG Gunna respond further with a more detailed guide of how its intended to play."
https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...87007855656960

I think if I were trying to hover around 30% it might be a dangerous thing, but 75-50% I might be able to deal with provided I couldn't get literally one shot.

Moreover, as Antifu just brought up on the class forums, BrMs in WoD beta were saying pretty much the same thing. But when I went into heroic dungeons/mythic raids at the very start of the xpac(before the ridiculous buff), I was by far the best tank we had available despite the perceived weaknesses BrM had. So maybe we're just doing the same thing we did last time and who knows, it might turn out alright.

I would still like to get my hands on it though to feel for myself.

[keqe]

I understand the idea of hovering around 70%, but how it will ever work in practice. Raids have multiple healers. The micromanagament of keeping HP at certain % is just something you can control. It isn't even up to you mostly, especially in Legion.

So you got healed to full in low damage phase? Too bad you die now in Zakuun heavy handed phase because no orbs m8.