Arms Legion Discussion

[Celarent]

Like, maybe Celestalon's right, but . . . inthatthread, a conversation that should've happened 4 months ago.

Plus, we're not talking about mopes like me. Blizzard deliberately invited 13/13M players, many of whom can ably reverse-engineer designs to find optimal combinations. These are the kinds of guys you have destroy your mechanics so you can make them foolproof for live.

What the heck.

[Archimtiros]

Like, maybe Celestalon's right, but . . . inthatthread, a conversation that should've happened 4 months ago.

Plus, we're not talking about mopes like me. Blizzard deliberately invited 13/13M players, many of whom can ably reverse-engineer designs to find optimal combinations. These are the kinds of guys you have destroy your mechanics so you can make them foolproof for live.

What the heck.

Unfortunately it's a reoccuring theme with Blizzard. They are simultaneously afraid to engage players and "give things away" and purposefully obfuscate mechanics, but then ask players to test and offer feedback WRT balance and design.

I recall an interview where one of the designers spoke about a particular spec (I want to say Moonkins) never figuring out the intended optimal rotation during a part of Cataclysm. It really made me wonder why they do this, yet at the same time bemoan the need for 3rd party website resources and player made guides.

On one hand they continually try to simplify game elements (as we've seen not only with some aspects of class design, but also UI changes), but on the other they refuse to be transparent with players as to how and why mechanics are supposed to work (as evidenced by the Alpha feedback forums, and not-so-secret-game mechanics forum). It's annoyingly contradictory.

And yet, of course it happens, because they do work closely with select players, and many of them are just as adept as they are, and sometimes even more so. The effectiveness of theorycrafters has been proven time and again in making better rotations than they initially planned, and finding holes in design that their own internals overlooked.

[Celarent]

Unfortunately it's a reoccuring theme with Blizzard. They are simultaneously afraid to engage players and "give things away" and purposefully obfuscate mechanics, but then ask players to test and offer feedback WRT balance and design.

That's unfortunate, because mechanics that have depth are still fun and challenging in a raid environment, even when players have been told exactly what to do. Most of us could play Mists Fury indefinitely, for example. Man, these guys.

[Archimtiros]

That's unfortunate, because mechanics that have depth are still fun and challenging in a raid environment, even when players have been told exactly what to do. Most of us could play Mists Fury indefinitely, for example. Man, these guys.

It all comes down to ego, honestly: They don't want to be second guessed, or proven incorrect in public. This is why they never broke down and released their own guides; some theorycrafter would come along and prove them wrong, forcing them to either change or provide inaccurate information, and they'd lose face.

It makes a certain amount of sense, but at the same time, it's pretty childish when saving face is more important than working together.

[nativity]

Related, the comment shortly thereafter (59m or so) "our goal is to make playing the game fun, not playing the class fun" made me facepalm so hard. Maybe if playing the class wasn't 95% of the gameplay things would be different, but it isn't as though raid mechanics have you constantly doing so much that you aren't enacting your rotation.

Both game and the class needs be fun and balanced to play.. it takes 2 hands to clap

[Archimtiros]

Both game and the class needs be fun and balanced to play.. it takes 2 hands to clap

I consider the two to be wholly different aspects of design.

For example: There's no class which is so involved that they're unable to execute raid mechanics. So why purposefully limit one classes interaction supposedly in support of that goal? If it were actually a problem, they'd have done it to all classes.

Obviously the idea was flawed, as the concept was reverted before launch, I'm just pointing out how silly the reasoning was in the first place.

[Breccia]

It all comes down to ego, honestly: They don't want to be second guessed, or proven incorrect in public.

Except, that wasn't always true. I'm going to keep leaning on this, because I'm an egomaniac, but I once demonstrated mathematically that Shield Block was stupid and Shield Barrier was OP, and Ghostcrawler himself responded with "thanks" and announced a tune on Barrier.

Celestalon is another animal entirely.

"We want you to test this spec and tell us how you like it."
"Okay. It doesn't work and we don't like it."
"Tough."

[Archimtiros]

Except, that wasn't always true. I'm going to keep leaning on this, because I'm an egomaniac, but I once demonstrated mathematically that Shield Block was stupid and Shield Barrier was OP, and Ghostcrawler himself responded with "thanks" and announced a tune on Barrier.

Celestalon is another animal entirely.

"We want you to test this spec and tell us how you like it."
"Okay. It doesn't work and we don't like it."
"Tough."

GC is well known for his philosophy of transparency with the player base, and it's one that is not shared by Blizzard as a whole. However, I will also add that I'm speaking generally, and not about anyone specifically. For all the hate mail he gets, even sparkle drags has positive interactions with players.

[Rikhart]

You guys that thread is embarassing. Years of shit posting like that is why the constructive feedback is pointless.
Do you remember how combative they got on Final Boss when the questions about Arms being slow and boring as fuck came up?
I suspect the dev's could give zero shits about our feedback now when it comes to Warrior.

And here is that moment where we called them out on Arms design and they completely dismiss the complaint about 25% free gcd's.
https://youtu.be/PIFvW6veAE0?t=3483

Dayum, I had never seen this before, and now I am quite worried.

"We are trying to make the game fun, not the class rotation fun".

I don´t even... "Hey guys, here´s a Lamborghini for you to play with, we made it awesome. It´s fine that the steering wheel and all the controls are made of stone, the car itself is awesome!".

Dude how can the fucking game be fun if a)it´s not a sandbox and b)your interface with which you interact with it is boring and uninspiring?

[Caargon]

GC is well known for his philosophy of transparency with the player base, and it's one that is not shared by Blizzard as a whole. However, I will also add that I'm speaking generally, and not about anyone specifically. For all the hate mail he gets, even sparkle drags has positive interactions with players.

Unfortunate he's too bullheaded to realize even a great design (which we don't have) is worthless if no one wants to play it. It's designing a shitty car that nobody likes, and blaming the market when it fails for not appreciating your "vision."

[Nightstalker]

Unfortunate he's too bullheaded to realize even a great design (which we don't have) is worthless if no one wants to play it. It's designing a shitty car that nobody likes, and blaming the market when it fails for not appreciating your "vision."

[Justpassing]

The Arms - The Spec Built for Arms Warriors.

*beep-boop beep-boop*

[mateusdowow]

checking out the first arms legion feedback thread where Archi specifically says "Please don't pull a WoD Alpha and yank this spec out from under us!"
damn
feelsbadman

[Yassy]

Dayum, I had never seen this before, and now I am quite worried.

"We are trying to make the game fun, not the class rotation fun".

I don´t even... "Hey guys, here´s a Lamborghini for you to play with, we made it awesome. It´s fine that the steering wheel and all the controls are made of stone, the car itself is awesome!".

Dude how can the fucking game be fun if a)it´s not a sandbox and b)your interface with which you interact with it is boring and uninspiring?

I've brought this analogy up before and I completely disagree with their philosophy that they posed in that video. I don't see how the game can be fun if the classes arent fun simultaneously because the classes are what you experience the game through. Its your proverbial vehicle to experience the World of Warcraft in.

If anyone has been to the Six Flags in New Jersey, there is/was? a roller coaster called Rolling Thunder. One of the biggest complaints about it was that the cars were incredibly uncomfortable and it ruined the ride. If you go down a bumpy road in some shitty car and youre being slammed around all over the place, that bumpy road is not an enjoyable experience. However, if you go down the same bumpy road on a 4 wheeler, a jeep, or some kind of vehicle designed for it, the experience becomes much more enjoyable.

Classes are a player's vehicle to enjoy the game through. If they are not enjoyable, the game is not enjoyable by proxy.

[Artunias]

Class design is 100% what has made WoD less fun for me and what is currently ruining Legion. It's so important, and I feel like the class team is failing REAL HARD on most classes right now. Warriors definitely aren't the only bad design out there for Legion

- - - Updated - - -

checking out the first arms legion feedback thread where Archi specifically says "Please don't pull a WoD Alpha and yank this spec out from under us!"
damn
feelsbadman

FeelsRealBadMan

[Cyclonus-WOW]

Everyone should take that video with a grain of salt as well. Their design is constantly iterating on everything, so you could expect what they said in it, to be different now. That was from MoP beta. Believe me, I'm pissed about what he said about how if we liked gladiator he didn't want to change it.. lol. I just wanted to highlight the feeling that we had run them out of gas for talking to warriors, probably from dealing with capslock crusaders and shit posts, and it shows in how we get treated now.

[Archimtiros]

checking out the first arms legion feedback thread where Archi specifically says "Please don't pull a WoD Alpha and yank this spec out from under us!"
damn
feelsbadman

In retrospect, that comment probably didn't do us any favors.

[Haveth]

I think at this point it's beyond just providing feedback on the alpha forums, I made a post on the WoW subreddit that will hopefully gain some traction and attention from players who don't necessarily keep up with the latest blue posts. We can only hope that problems are brought up loud enough that Blizzard starts to consider making changes to Arms/Fury.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...e_of_warriors/

[Breccia]

So:

Celestalon told Brewmasters their spec was fine. Brewmasters explained in a variety of detail and aggressiveness how vigorously they disagreed with that. In 24 hours, the spec had massive revisions.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...21?page=11#218

So is this proof of:
a) hope, that we might get revisions ourselves, or
b) Celestalon really is ignoring the spec entirely?

[Artunias]

Must be nice to be any class but a warrior it seems, and have your feedback taken into consideration.