Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[KrazyK923]

I treat you justly ; You are a toxic, whining prick. Thus, you get shit for it. Anything beyond that is just you getting triggered.

Someone disagreed with you once. So sorry you were triggered.

Could you stop making the thread off topic? Or you can just whine that more people disagree with you. Your choice.

The irony is that you are exactly what you're accusing me of. Love it.

[endlesswaltz]

Strong argument, bro.

hardly an argument when you are able to prove me right in one reply protip: don't get so butt hurt over the interwebz

[Deleted]

You mean frostbolt the boss to death before the trash pack respawnned during the boss fight because the timer was broken?

yeah i remember that, was really challenging because it was dumb. Because of that i remember it VERY well actually.

True now you dont have to do even this. You can just afk and kill every single raid boss. And no you cant use argument ,,did you done mythic?,,. It is same content. If i am able to kill every single boss while afking your game is easy. If i can level up my char in 24 hours your game is easy. If i can faceroll run your dungeons in 10 minutes and kill dungeons bosses in 12 sec your game is easy. Yes vannila had it is problems. But it is still better mmorpg experience then current retail. MMORPGs are about community not about raid bosses having more mechanics, or classes having more buttons to press. If you loss community in MMO game by making everything easy and acessible for sake of covinience then your game will be boring, dull and tedious grind to end game without any player intercation.

I will rather spam 1 button in vannila while doing 2 mechanics bosses what are far more rewarding when you kill them. Then play this hollow WoD expansion without community.

[kary]

True now you dont have to do even this. You can just afk and kill every single raid boss. And no you cant use argument ,,did you done mythic?,,. It is same content. If i am able to kill every single boss while afking your game is easy. If i can level up my char in 24 hours your game is easy. If i can faceroll run your dungeons in 10 minutes and kill dungeons bosses in 12 sec your game is easy. Yes vannila had it is problems. But it is still better mmorpg experience then current retail. MMORPGs are about community not about raid bosses having more mechanics, or classes having more buttons to press. If you loss community in MMO game by making everything easy and acessible for sake of covinience then your game will be boring, dull and tedious grind to end game without any player intercation.

I will rather spam 1 button in vannila while doing 2 mechanics bosses what are far more rewarding when you kill them. Then play this hollow WoD expansion without community.

You lose community when *you* choose to.
The community didn't go anywhere. People still talk to each other, at least on my realm. Maybe you should try talking to people :^)

Also, called it. I knew a lfr hero would talk about the difficulty. fckin called it.

[cholobanger]

True now you dont have to do even this. You can just afk and kill every single raid boss. And no you cant use argument ,,did you done mythic?,,. It is same content. If i am able to kill every single boss while afking your game is easy. If i can level up my char in 24 hours your game is easy. If i can faceroll run your dungeons in 10 minutes and kill dungeons bosses in 12 sec your game is easy. Yes vannila had it is problems. But it is still better mmorpg experience then current retail. MMORPGs are about community not about raid bosses having more mechanics, or classes having more buttons to press. If you loss community in MMO game by making everything easy and acessible for sake of covinience then your game will be boring, dull and tedious grind to end game without any player intercation.

I will rather spam 1 button in vannila while doing 2 mechanics bosses what are far more rewarding when you kill them. Then play this hollow WoD expansion without community.

Everything you mentioned can be somewhat resolved with a refined version of Blizzard's pristine server idea. I can't see how going backwards for Legacy servers is particularly healthy.

[Deleted]

This guy talks about the repond in detail, couldn't agree more.

[Typhoria]

This guy talks about the repond in detail, couldn't agree more.

They go back to 1 difficulty raids, people will whine and complain about it being too hard.

[Deleted]

They go back to 1 difficulty raids, people will whine and complain about it being too hard.

So do what they did in TBC: create 10 man raids suitable of casual and friends-and-family guilds, and different 25 man raids for progression oriented guilds.

[Arcanisstrix]

Claim has been made many times, other then Nost staff stating that they change their donating system to be more transparent i have seen nothing even remotely proving this, if you want to talk about facts atleast provide them.

You were right, I checked and they didn't say they they'd shut down the server. They did confirm on reddid though that their players couldn't always provide the costs of the servers and the team had to pay some of it themselves ("Our own player base paid for the server upkeep. There were times where we footed the bill out of pocket when it was necessary" NanoNostalrious). I could send you the link if you want.
So 150k players couldn't always pay 1000 dollars per month. That's $0.007 each. Maybe if it was an official Blizzard server people would be willing to pay. I don't know but neither does anybody else. Claiming that official legacy servers would be a huge success and worth Blizzard's time, is a huge assumption, not backed by the facts so far.
Anyway, like I said, if both sides can find a solution, that would be for the best, both for the game and the community.

[kamuimac]

The whole "lol free gear from garrison" is 100% hyperbole, since you got 1 item every 2 weeks. Like you literally have to not do any raid content for 2 items a month to be a big draw. .

its not only a hyperbole but its also a complete fallacy - its so rng depended that its annoying like fuck - my main hasnt got even a single piece that i can use as an upgrade since start of 6.2 -_- i do know that some people are lucky enough to et mutliple pieces but ng is rng so you cant really use it as earin up method unless ou dont care about good stats or 4 sets etc

luckily this thread is going to die quite soon as soon as people will relaise they wont be geting flying till unestimated time in legion so next big shitstorm is incoming quite soon making people to forget about vanilla servers

[Deleted]

And no lol, it has only been explained in your head.

Ah ok, i see now you do not have interest in an honest discussion, so i am out.

[OreoLover]

its not only a hyperbole but its also a complete fallacy - its so rng depended that its annoying like fuck - my main hasnt got even a single piece that i can use as an upgrade since start of 6.2 -_- i do know that some people are lucky enough to et mutliple pieces but ng is rng so you cant really use it as earin up method unless ou dont care about good stats or 4 sets etc

luckily this thread is going to die quite soon as soon as people will relaise they wont be geting flying till unestimated time in legion so next big shitstorm is incoming quite soon making people to forget about vanilla servers

"Overall, this is consistent with the plans we announced last year when we added the original Draenor Pathfinder achievement in 6.2.2, and hopefully does not come as a surprise."

If there's a shitstorm over that, it will be rather tiny at least. Bring your umbrella

[Atelniar]

Know the system, yes. Like? No.
Vanilla/TBC was dumb lol. It was amazing to experience, but looking back at it, there were so many things that were bad and needed to (and have been) changed.
Personal favs.
Hunters not having a casted spell, essentially forced to autoattack for extended periods of time (fixed in tbc)
Hunters using a resource that came from a stat they didn't use (fixed in cata)
Innumerable rogue changes
Hybrid classes being pigeonholed (fixed tbc onwards)
Viability of other tanking classes

Going to address this because you bring up valid points but fail to regard specific flaws with your argument as you line them up, it is quite evident that your memory is either flawed or you did not at all play TBC/Vanilla:

1) Hunters did in fact have int as a stat on some of their gear through Vanilla. This I remember vividly. But gear was badly optimized in terms of min/max. The change to hunter resources happened in Cataclysm, yes, but a lot of bad changes have been made to hunters to the point where they are considered a joke in battlegrounds. They have so many defensive cooldowns and mobility + no weakness at short range. An archer would in reality be at a disadvantage in real life if the enemy was in his face, Vanilla stayed true to that logic, by removing that weakness hunters rarely had a weakness in the hands of a good player. Add a pet, stealth-like mechanics and self-regeneration. The class has gone overboard in terms of utility in 10-40 man PvP. This is also prevelant in PvE where ranged classes, hunters among them, are preferred ahead of melee due to the fact that it is easier to handle mechanics that way. WoD suffers from the fact that certain classes has too many tools. Some lost core abilities since MoP. I believe a certain warlock spec was completely broken.

Personally, I find feral druids to be the least interesting since level 10 in Vanilla. I am only relevant in PvP by adjusting to a macro that includes two important cooldowns. Outside of that feral druids are a joke. I proved that personally to a friend by killing two ferals alone on a gladiator prot warrior with blue honor gear, after they popped their cooldowns to down him. The identity of feral druids was completely lost beginning with the changes done in late Cataclysm and early MoP. The idea of anticipating and adjusting to your enemy was replaced with hoping for a cooldown to be up. It's fucking boring.

2) If you think hybrid classes weren't still pidgeonholed in TBC, then you didn't really play it. Ferals were largely irrelevant as core DPS. Ferals did not truly become relevant as DPS until WotLK. Boomkins have been on and off. Either they are downright terrible in periods or they are ridiculously strong. As for tanking. Feral druids were capable of tanking specific encounters due to their insane HP-pool back in Vanilla, compared to other classes. In TBC this remained the case, but Warriors were still much better at tanking, overall. In WotLK bears still had a place, but it wasn't until Cataclysm were a talent was introduced that reduced the chance of being critical hit by mobs when bears became truly viable maintanks. Paladins and ferals had been able to tank certain encounters long before TBC, but warriors have always been the go-to tank. Did didn't change in TBC. Although ferals were ridiculous due to mangle's damage output in early TBC and their insane health, this was quickly nerfed to hell.

I think your memory is a bit flawed. Most of the points you bring up weren't even properly solved in WotLK. Although that is the point at which the hybrid tax was lifted in a sense. It was still present up until Cataclysm in some form. The further along that path we went, the further certain specs were broken and lost their identity as a result. Ferals split into two specs, for example. The concept of shapeshifting is a lost art most new players don't understand. It was THE only unique asset about feral druids. Restoration and boomkins had unique spells in a sense, but ferals didn't. With the exception of mangle, but that became dilluted as mangle's mechanics changed and other classes gained similar tools. Shapeshifting was the core, now it's less relevant than stance shifting. Ironically enough.

I'd say the game has improved in terms of bringing the player and not the class, but the classes have become so similar and so dull that there's almost no point of having them if it keeps going. The game evolved, but some times you shouldn't evolve just for the sake of evolution. At some point you end up devolving. And that is what happened in WoW. Add the removal of fluff abilities such as hibernation (which had its uses in limited scenarios) and its equivalent among other classes, and you end up having watered down class concepts. Legion isn't going to fix that from the get-go. WoW was at the height of its complexity in terms of gameplay around WotLK and Cataclysm, from there on out it has devolved.

That's my opinion, but I find your view about hybrids being less pidgeonholed in TBC to be somewhat incorrect. With the changes made one should also point out that the idea of hybrid specs through talent trees became redundant from WotLK and beyond. As such talent trees became even more trivial than they were in Vanilla or TBC. TBC started the devolution where talent trees became a linear progression path with few options of customizing your character. In Vanilla there was many strong and viable hybrid specs. Such flavour has been completely reduced to trash with the new talent trees. As if being able to switch between specs wasn't enough, now you can nitpick talents based on each fight. It's borderline stupid. There's no real choice or consequence left in the character customization.

---

The below section is in regard to your attitude and others that shared your opinion, from what I have read the last fifty pages or so. Maybe even more than that.

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But of course, I have read your opinion that the game has only improved since Vanilla, it has never lost any complexity or flavour, right?

I disagree with that notion, for me the character customization is a joke. Classes and specs are borderline irrelevant. Especially talent trees. I am a player that could enjoy casual PvP or dungeons (heroic) for hours on end, but in WoD I couldn't even force myself to enjoy either of those. Anything other than raiding is an abyssmal shell of its former self. And the stagnant honor currency should have been replaced 4 years ago to support a more community-driven system. Which we had in Vanilla, but got removed with TBC when arena became the new fad. While the grind in the vanilla honor system was a pain, getting those titles was easy up until rank 10+, I find. PvP wasn't balanced at all then, in terms of gear, but it is even worse now with how conquest gear scales you up to become a god compared to honor gear. You aren't competetive at all in blue honor gear. End of discussion.

Surely, that improved as well? No it didn't.

The only thing that has steadily and universally improved over the years is combat animation and certain boss mechanics. Our playerbase had even devolved to the point where it literally couldn't accept the idea of Cataclysm heroics being challenging (and they weren't impossible to get through, if you didn't queue completely solo through LFD).

A lot of things have improved over the years, but a lot of small and large things that made the experience unique has also been lost. That is why people have feelings of nostalgia towards classic WoW to begin with. If you can't comprehend that, as you showcased to some degree by arguing that the game has only improved over the years, then your opinion is biased and irrelevant. I can personally see that the game has improved in many ways, but a lot of things were lost with time in WoW. And some of those things that were lost drove a huge portion of the playerbase away. I don't think it's as simple as re-implementing classic WoW in the shape of legacy servers to fix that, but I also believe that vision and that comprehension of what an MMORPG should be, which they had back in the days, is lost on them. It's more important to make sure everyone experiences raids even if they don't want to put the effort in. I never raided much, I was ok with that. There was so much else to do.

LFR is a joke, and I should be its primary demographic (someone who barely raided at all), it shows how important convenience became instead of making a more worthwhile experience by expanding upon the product. Keystones and world quests look promising, but beyond that I am a sceptic about Legion. And after trying a game like BDO, Skyforge, GW2 and many other titles, why would I come back when they are cheaper options and in some regards better games. That is, as long as I am not a hard-core mythic raider? Seriously, why would anyone who isn't a hardcore raider pick up WoW? The story? SW:TOR does that ten times better. The lore in WoW has been retconned so many times and the same villains reappear over and over again. The story isn't that engaging.

WoW as a product needs to change. The subscription model isn't attractive to new players to the genre, when comparing WoW to newer and quite competetive MMORPG's on the market. The trial option is limited, to say the least, and doesn't come close to its opponents. Legacy servers, as I have argued before, could solve that specific issue. It could attract old and new players for the sake of retention. And it would probably sustain a long-term community which is represented as it is by the acitivity on private servers such as Nostalrius. That idea was ridiculed on the basis of assumptions and biased opinions from specific users on this forum. Fair enough, I was personally trying to contribute because I want to see WoW succeed. I believe legacy realms could meet a specific lack that current WoW has, if implemented correctly. Do I think it will happen? Nope. Do I think WoW will return to glory? Nope. It lacks too much vision. WoW hasn't introduced anything impressive in terms of gameplay since phasing was introduced (and that is a long time ago). I do not count tools of convinience as ground-breaking steps in game design, personally.

- - - Updated - - -

Exit polls are only relevant to players who are cancelling their sub, of course. They're used to find out why players are leaving the game. I'm not sure why you bring in active players into this, I'm aware how people pay for their subs. But that's hardly relevant to this discussion?

You fail to see the point. Purposefully. I might add. Players who pay with gametime are active for one-six months, after that period there is no exit poll (I can't remember running into one). Only subscriptions payed for with actual money through a subscription method has exit polls (it would seem), if I remember correctly. Which, hold on, excludes a potentially massive portion of the playerbase. That's where it is relevant. The exit polls are limited in their accuracy at targeting everyone who has ever played WoW. In fact, I'd argue it is possibly the minority. Why? Because many don't enjoy polls. They won't waste their time answering it if they don't feel like it.

If you think the idea of telling your customers that you know better than them what they WANT isn't cocky, then you should re-think your logic. It is a PR-disaster. It's become a god-damn slogan showcasing how idiotic Blizzard can be in PR-relations when addressing a fairly well-formulated question. It was childish and unnecessary. It was fucking stupid. It is not just a subjective opinion, it is founded on the evidence provided by youtube videos with 200k up to 2 million views where it is being ridiculed. Remember those? Oh yes, let's ignore those, lol. It's just "subjective". Don't go there, seriously.

You thought it was good? The grammar, the stuttering, the silence of the crowd when they couldn't believe what he was trying to stumble from his mouth? Yea, I like comedy shows with awkward characters too, but I don't like blatant disrespect. Sorry.

As for putting sales of copies in a position to compare it with a PR-statement, what's the relevance? WoW has been a massive phenomena in gaming circles for a long time, there's bound to be players returning to see if the expansion is any good. How does that relate to the fact that it was a stupid PR-comment to make? Oh wait, it doesn't, because you fail to argue that it does. Statements like that has never been directly tied to a company's capability of selling a product. That solely rests on the product in question. Which is why an old household name such as WoW is still gonna sell a ton if it is crap. Because it sells based on expectations and past achievements. PR-statements has a minimal effect on sales if any. It still doesn't excuse the retarded nature of said statement.

Also, behold the changed nature of their statement from the very same person that stated "you think you do, but you don't". Turns out they did have a more diplomatic approach this time.

[Deleted]

Ferals were largely irrelevant as core DPS. Ferals did not truly become relevant as DPS until WotLK. Boomkins have been on and off. Either they are downright terrible in periods or they are ridiculously strong. As for tanking. Feral druids were capable of tanking specific encounters due to their insane HP-pool back in Vanilla, compared to other classes.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Not every spec and class needs to be equal and able to do everything. In fact, they should not be able to do everything equally well, because it means there is really no point to the classes beyond superficial things like animations or ability names.

Pure DPS in particular is completely broken in the current design because it's always superior to roll a hybrid. You can do equally well in pure DPS role, but in addition you also get the ability to perform different roles that pure DPS classes can't. Hence the "hybrid tax", which is absolutely critical to a functioning game design.

Take ferals for example. Why would anyone ever roll a rogue if feral cat form can do equal DPS? But equally you may ask why would anyone bring a feral into a raid if a rogue can do better damage? That's the design problem, and Blizzard actually used to have it figured out: Hybrids brought lower DPS, but in addition they brought utility and buffs that pures didn't. A feral druid would be able to off tank in certain fights, main tank in special fights that needed high HP, and do decent melee DPS in other fights. It brings flexibility to the raid that allows the raid to adapt to different fights.

But then Blizzard's game design went off the rails and they started solving every problem by adding more stuff. Hybrids do less DPS than pure? Let's just increase their damage! Pures don't have utility? Let's just given them utility! And on and on and on it went until everyone could do everything and the whole design turned into a broken, shallow bore. Luckily they have recently admitted this mistake and are trying to get back to the old design where classes and specs had diversity.

[Atelniar]

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Not every spec and class needs to be equal and able to do everything. In fact, they should not be able to do everything equally well, because it means there is really no point to the classes beyond superficial things like animations or ability names.

Pure DPS in particular is completely broken in the current design because it's always superior to roll a hybrid. You can do equally well in pure DPS role, but in addition you also get the ability to perform different roles that pure DPS classes can't. Hence the "hybrid tax", which is absolutely critical to a functioning game design.

Take ferals for example. Why would anyone ever roll a rogue if feral cat form can do equal DPS? But equally you may ask why would anyone bring a feral into a raid if a rogue can do better damage? That's the design problem, and Blizzard actually used to have it figured out: Hybrids brought lower DPS, but in addition they brought utility and buffs that pures didn't. A feral druid would be able to off tank in certain fights, main tank in special fights that needed high HP, and do decent melee DPS in other fights. It brings flexibility to the raid that allows the raid to adapt to different fights.

But then Blizzard's game design went off the rails and they started solving every problem by adding more stuff. Hybrids do less DPS than pure? Let's just increase their damage! Pures don't have utility? Let's just given them utility! And on and on and on it went until everyone could do everything and the whole design turned into a broken, shallow bore. Luckily they have recently admitted this mistake and are trying to get back to the old design where classes and specs had diversity.

I never stated my opinion on if the hybrid tax was right or wrong, I merely pointed out that his memory was somewhat flawed. However, the watered down specs we have these days bore me. And the few unique spells they design for different classes become less useful then your arbitrary run-of-the-mill spell that everyone else also has. Which is unfortunate, the unique spells are less potent and only situationally useful in the talent trees.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

At this point, we're at 1141 pages and we show no signs of stopping. To this end and with the recent comment from Blizzard, I have a plea to make to all people who are pro-legacy, pro-pristine or neutral to ignore the negativity some people are spewing in this thread.

I know most of you are intelligent people who are interested in the well being of the game. I know it's hard not to answer to the negativity - even more so when facts are overwhelming. These people suffer from cognitive bias - basically, ask yourself if either of you will change opinion. If the answer is no, then it's not worth answering. And then, there are people who are more sadistic who really enjoy putting others down.

Because of all of this, I ask in the most humble of ways that all of my fellow gamer and friends in this thread abstain from answering the particularly vocal and toxic minority who just seek to derail this thread.

We have been heard by Blizzard and they seek our help to iterate on a system - Pristine servers - but also our opinion about legacy itself and how it should be. We should not waste this opportunity in this cloud of negativity because some people would rather see you angry than iterating.

So if we are to win, we must ignore them and keep on speaking, rationally and thoughtfully, so in the end we can show Blizzard, but also this community here, that we are not interested in toxicity.

To better allow us to discuss with specific members, I recommend you to add a little token in your signature with the "Pro-Legacy", "Pro-Pristine" or both. With this in mind, it will be easier for us to filter down people who are not interested for discussion.

Thanks for reading, and I look forward to hear your ideas and iterations about legacy and pristine servers.

PS: I will repeat this message through the day so it can get as much visibility as possible, along with new thoughts on the situation as to not spam the same thing over and over.

[RippedLife]

https://twitter.com/Abe_Ramos/status/725389822039187456 OH SHIT BOYS ITSHAPPENING.GIF???

[Raiju]

https://twitter.com/Abe_Ramos/status/725389822039187456 OH SHIT BOYS ITSHAPPENING.GIF???

Did you even read the link?

Compelling stories. Intense multiplayer. Endless replayability. Qualities that made StarCraft, Warcraft III, and Diablo II the titans of their day. Evolving operating systems, hardware, and online services have made them more difficult to be experienced by their loyal followers or reaching a new generation.

We’re restoring them to glory, and we need your engineering talents, your passion, and your ability to get tough jobs done.

CLASSIC GAMES, not WoW Classic/vanilla

[RippedLife]

did you even read the link?



Classic games, not wow classic/vanilla

let me dream

[Deleted]

At this point, we're at 1141 pages and we show no signs of stopping.

Anyone know how long pro-legacy threads are on official forums?