Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Deleted]

And then they realized it still doesn't work, and they turned MR into a maintenance spell.

I think that happened in the same build and they only later made a blue post to say it's meant to be maintainance. But that's besides the point anyway.

But far less than a few builds ago. Most of them are a tuning issue now, instead of mechanical ones.
Tuning issue. But at least we now HAVE gameplay altering talents, we didn't before.

Fair but lets not get too optimistic either and stay realistic; just because something can be fixed with tuning (though something like March of the Damned is more of a mechanical issue and so is Exsanguinate depending on if breaking on ability use is intended or not) does not mean it will be. We hope it does but the fact that this exists (and has been given feedback for in the last beta!) does not mean it will happen. Or if what we think are stupid talents (Plaguebearer) the devs see the same way.

As I said, there's many reasons that can explain feedback not being immediately followed by changes.

Sure and as long as they don't come out and tell you why, your guess is as good as mine. It could be they were too busy to implement or it could be that they saw the feedback and just disagreed with (i.e. the last slew of post for the other classes, check the blue tracker for examples).

[Deleted]

I used to think it was just incompetence and not malicious intent. But I have witnessed on multiple occasions direct feedback being completely ignored/dismissed (feedback given through much straighter avenues than whatever is accessible to the public), only for the exact issue to surface a few months down the line. Meanwhile irrelevant feedback and suggestions from devs' friends are being added/modified (you guys remember Conversion???). No you won't get proof, trust me or don't idc.

(and of course I'm not implying it takes an afternoon to implement things like that into a game. But it doesn't take long to find a better direction and you have to question how the hell certain concepts even make it past the brainstorm phase. I mean, Leech on Blood Shield, really?? Is this the result of a bingo card where you assign random things together and hope it works? one of countless examples)


I'll stop answering because posting was a mistake. It's not a "personal vendetta", I'm not even relevant to this discussion since I've not been involved in theorycraft for years now and only watch from the sides. I'm just fed up of this farce, even as an outsider, but feel free to delude yourself into thinking these feedback threads are genuine attempts at listening to the community

[Deleted]

Sure and as long as they don't come out and tell you why, your guess is as good as mine. It could be they were too busy to implement or it could be that they saw the feedback and just disagreed with (i.e. the last slew of post for the other classes, check the blue tracker for examples).

I agree. It's sad that blue posts like the one regarding DS costing RP is the exception. Obviously the devs can't respond to every single point being brought up or subjective stuff like "boring gameplay", but I think they should respond to at least general concerns, like movement or our leech.

[Maxweii]

I dunno, even if it's a straight shot avenue to give the feedback to the devs that still doesn't mean they have to listen to it. You have the same chances of being listened to, or ignored, no matter where you give it from. It comes down to their decision. If issues come out after the fact that we're pointed out in feedback, so be it. They will address it then. To think the game will be perfect without flaws like that is a bit far fetched.

[Deleted]

snip

I really try, but it's hard reading your posts as anything else than massive butthurt.
Regarding Unending Thirst: These guys have to come up with hundreds and hundreds of abilities, traits and talents, most of them for specs they aren't as intimately familiar as you are. There's bound to be a few missteps.

[Deleted]

If issues come out after the fact that we're pointed out in feedback, so be it. They will address it then.

I am still waiting for the fix to Conversion and Plaguebearer. Do let me know when that happens.

[Deleted]

massive butthurt.

I don't pretend the opposite.

You know what, sometimes it's perfectly justified.

[Maxweii]

I am still waiting for the fix to Conversion and Plaguebearer. Do let me know when that happens.

They scraped it in Legion instead of trying to fix it. Essentially the same thing. (Sarcasm intended)
Warlords talents for DKs never got much love, they refocused from Warlords to Legion too early for them to matter.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't pretend the opposite.

You know what, sometimes it's perfectly justified.

Sure you can feel personally justified, doesn't mean you should be detrimental to others efforts to give feedback though.

[Deleted]

I am still waiting for the fix to Conversion and Plaguebearer. Do let me know when that happens.

They fucked up talents since MoP. They had this grand idea of a redesign of the talent system, but for most classes it fell flat (for dks they refused to separate tank and dps talents), and for whatever reason they just left it at that in WoD. I won't defend them on that, I think it was a bad decision from a gameplay perspective, but I'm sure they had their reasons (probably money or time. the reason is always money or time). But for Legion, they've improved them by a lot. They're already better than they ever were. And it doesn't look like they're done yet.

[Deleted]

They scraped it in Legion instead of trying to fix it. Essentially the same thing. (Sarcasm intended)
Warlords talents for DKs never got much love, they refocused from Warlords to Legion too early for them to matter.

And how exactly do we know the same won't happen again?

Look, I am not trying to be negative here but being too optimistic is just as bad as being too pessimistic. I am trying to keep this in perspective and I really, really do hope what you say is true because I like playing Blood. It's just that past experience has shown that there were situations where this was not the case. Basically, we don't know what will happen.

Stay realistic, that's all I can say.

There is also the fact that I do want all our major issues fixed BEFORE Legion goes live. Why? Because, again, experience has shown that there that changes are made easier and more swiftly when they haven't been on live yet. (The whole "We don't wanna change things with hotfixes/inbetween expansions too much." spiel.)

[Deleted]

There is also the fact that I do want all our major issues fixed BEFORE Legion goes live. Why? Because, again, experience has shown that there that changes are made easier and more swiftly when they haven't been on live yet. (The whole "We don't wanna change things with hotfixes/inbetween expansions too much." spiel.)

Which is exactly why we need to continue giving feedback. Of course there's a chance they won't listen, but that's not something we can affect. But if we don't provide feedback because "the devs don't listen anyway", then things will definitely not change.

[Deleted]

Which is exactly why we need to continue giving feedback. Of course there's a chance they won't listen, but that's not something we can affect. But if we don't provide feedback because "the devs don't listen anyway", then things will definitely not change.

I am not a fan of copy and pasting from a previous thread, and everything I wanted to say I said in last week's thread. If they start engaging us again by showing us changes that acknowlege the issues outlaid therein, I will start posting again. But if they don't, there are other things I could be doing with my time besides just repeating myself over and over.

[Nayami]

I am not a fan of copy and pasting from a previous thread, and everything I wanted to say I said in last week's thread. If they start engaging us again by showing us changes that acknowlege the issues outlaid therein, I will start posting again. But if they don't, there are other things I could be doing with my time besides just repeating myself over and over.

Please continue posting in the feedback forums Tyvi, at least for those players who are unable to do so if anything. A lot of things were changed from feedback you provided yourself such as:

- HS Slow increased to 50%
- Ossuary changed to require 5 Bone Shield charges
- Removal of talents that give us unneeded bone shield charges

and I'm sure there are others that I can't think of right now.

Thank you for what you've done for Blood and I really hope that you'll continue to do so.

[Deleted]

I am not a fan of copy and pasting from a previous thread, and everything I wanted to say I said in last week's thread. If they start engaging us again by showing us changes that acknowlege the issues outlaid therein, I will start posting again. But if they don't, there are other things I could be doing with my time besides just repeating myself over and over.

No one's forcing you. Everyone has to decide for themselves how much time they want to invest to try and change things.
You already do way more than other blood dks in the alpha, and personally, I appreciate every single post you make.

[Maxweii]

And how exactly do we know the same won't happen again?

Look, I am not trying to be negative here but being too optimistic is just as bad as being too pessimistic. I am trying to keep this in perspective and I really, really do hope what you say is true because I like playing Blood. It's just that past experience has shown that there were situations where this was not the case. Basically, we don't know what will happen.

Stay realistic, that's all I can say.

There is also the fact that I do want all our major issues fixed BEFORE Legion goes live. Why? Because, again, experience has shown that there that changes are made easier and more swiftly when they haven't been on live yet. (The whole "We don't wanna change things with hotfixes/inbetween expansions too much." spiel.)

I don't see you as negative you're just being straight up. However, on the other side of what you're saying you can see a marked difference in how feedback and iterations on changes are being gone about this expan. It's a lot different than before, and that's just as valid of a reason to say 'things can change' as it is looking back and saying 'well things didn't change before'.

[Murderdoll]

0 mobility (WW isn't exactly good, but it's more than they originally intended)

Class design happens independently of encounter design. First lot of dungeon and raid testing and they were forced.

A Dead talents

We still have PLENTY of them. The fact they dont understand why Purgatory is a good talent is damning to talent design and how we will never have true, meaningful options.

A Brain-dead gameplay with 0 talent options to alter it

Bonestorm? Bonestorm is press at 100RP and forget. The spec still offers no advanced gameplay.

A No cc

Gorefiends Grasp and Death Grip have and are still considered forms of crowd control.


You keep saying things are tuning issues. Numbers dont magically change how things work at their core.

[Xeoshades]

New Alpha invites went out? Or did the Alpha boards just went full wack... @Tyvi, Thank you very much for your time invested thus far on the Alpha forums. Stuff that is posted now is the reason why your feedback is so important!!!

There are times new DK players feel like they want DK's to be nothing more then dark themed pallys..... and want that class abilities implanted T_T (Charge, Consecrate, shields....bleh)

[evilcast]

This is depressing, we still have so many steaming dog shit talents and it looks like tank game play has been butt fucked so healers can have more fun... Woo hoo!

[Deleted]

We still have PLENTY of them. The fact they dont understand why Purgatory is a good talent is damning to talent design and how we will never have true, meaningful options.

As I said, we have a lot less than before (before the last changes about 70% of them were mechanically useless, now it's only 3 in total.
They never said they don't understand why it's a good talent, they said they don't understand why it's considered a mandatory talent.
What they meant by that is that Purgatory only prevents a death, whereas optimally you shouldn't die at all as a tank. It also puts more pressure on your healers. On the other hand, Blood Mirror is a 20% DR, reducing the pressure on your healers, and possibly even preventing that death in the first place. The main reason it currently is mandatory is because the other option do almost nothing, or sometimes nothing at all.

Bonestorm? Bonestorm is press at 100RP and forget. The spec still offers no advanced gameplay.

I'm not talking about bonestorm. I'm talking about Exsanguinate/Soulgorge/Mark of Blood/Rune Tap. Apart from that there's also Heartbreaker/Rapid Decomposition/Spectral Deflection/Ossuary that change the speed of your rotation. It's not a lot, but it's more than our original iteration of talents had.

You keep saying things are tuning issues. Numbers dont magically change how things work at their core.

They don't. But for almost all of our talents, the mechanics at their core are fine.
Currently MoB is useless, because it heals for less than a DS. If it healed for 10x that amount, it would be mandatory. Somewhere in between lies a point where it's a good talent. Tuning issue.
Currently, WotN is not worth taking over the other options, because it's effectively a 9% health increase (unless you stay <35% health, which will not happen). If it reduced your damage taken by 60% while below 50% health it would be mandatory. Tuning issue.
Same for almost all other talents.

Previously, there were talents like original Ossuary. Even if it gave you 10 BS charges for every MR that hits multiple enemies it would still be a bad talent, and you can't tune it any further.

The only remaining talents that are mechanically flawed and can't be fixed via tuning are Soulgorge, March of the Damned and Foul Bulwark, possibly AMB as well. (The last two because we don't really gain that much benefit from max health anymore)

[Raiju]

What they meant by that is that Purgatory only prevents a death, whereas optimally you shouldn't die at all as a tank. It also puts more pressure on your healers. On the other hand, Blood Mirror is a 20% DR, reducing the pressure on your healers, and possibly even preventing that death in the first place. The main reason it currently is mandatory is because the other option do almost nothing, or sometimes nothing at all.

Optimally you shouldn't ever wipe on a boss once you know the tactics and meet the gear threshold (which everyone except maybe the world first guilds do)

That's why that argument is a complete waste of time.