1. #2021
    Titan Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    That could go both ways. If you for example are a gay, and ask a Christian baker to bake you a cake with the words, i love fags.
    Is is not intolerance to force your opinion upon someone who's religion clearly opposes your ideals?
    What seems like a fair compromise is that the baker agrees to sell the cake without the custom phrasing -- as reject content is typically not discriminatory. The customers can get the cake icing done elsewhere, or do it themselves.

    But to not even agree to bake them a cake? That's clearly not even close to meeting in the middle.

    I think when it comes to customized content -- like writing on a cake, there is far more leeway in rejecting customers, and I do believe there is precedent on this. A baker isn't required to provide content that is obscene, like a penis cake or profane writing.

  2. #2022
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    That could go both ways. If you for example are a gay, and ask a Christian baker to bake you a cake with the words, i love fags.
    Is is not intolerance to force your opinion upon someone who's religion clearly opposes your ideals?

    Both the baker and the gay are being intolerant in that cause.
    Which is really what it all boils down to, everyone is intolerant and need to learn to respect others opinions. That is true tolerance.
    Forcing people to adhere to a specific stigma is not tolerance.

    Right and wrong, it is all the eye of the beholder. A personal belief, everyone is prisoners of their own ego.
    Why is the solution then to ban gays buying cakes and not a policy of not permitting inflammatory language on your product? There is absolutely nothing wrong with being intolerant to those calling you an asshole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    What seems like a fair compromise is that the baker agrees to sell the cake without the custom phrasing -- as reject content is typically not discriminatory. The customers can get the cake icing done elsewhere, or do it themselves.

    But to not even agree to bake them a cake? That's clearly not even close to meeting in the middle.

    I think when it comes to customized content -- like writing on a cake, there is far more leeway in rejecting customers, and I do believe there is precedent on this. A baker isn't required to provide content that is obscene, like a penis cake or profane writing.
    Yeah, the compromise is obviously a policy to not permit derogatory or inflammatory language on cakes. The gay shopper is not discriminated for being gay nor is the shop owner forced to make the cake. It's why bans on action are permitted...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  3. #2023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    What seems like a fair compromise is that the baker agrees to sell the cake without the custom phrasing -- as reject content is typically not discriminatory. The customers can get the cake icing done elsewhere, or do it themselves.

    But to not even agree to bake them a cake? That's clearly not even close to meeting in the middle.

    I think when it comes to customized content -- like writing on a cake, there is far more leeway in rejecting customers, and I do believe there is precedent on this. A baker isn't required to provide content that is obscene, like a penis cake or profane writing.
    Yes, indeed you are right, that is the right solution, but the baker might not think that.

    But that is something you have to deal with if you want a free society.
    You cannot persecute people based on their beliefs, even if their clearly wrong because for them, they are right and forcing them will just make the situation worse as you can observe everywhere virtually there's a cultural war going on right now between people who want change and people who doesn't want and both sides want to force their opinion resulting in a total shitfest.

  4. #2024
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    Yes, indeed you are right, that is the right solution, but the baker might not think that.

    But that is something you have to deal with if you want a free society.
    You cannot persecute people based on their beliefs, even if their clearly wrong because for them, they are right and forcing them will just make the situation worse as you can observe everywhere virtually there's a cultural war going on right now between people who want change and people who doesn't want and both sides want to force their opinion resulting in a total shitfest.
    Uh. Persecution for beliefs? where is that happening? I see conviction for actions, not beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by spinner981
    I don't believe in observational proof because I have arrived at the conclusion that such a thing doesn't exist.

  5. #2025
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheresmywoft View Post
    Uh. Persecution for beliefs? where is that happening? I see conviction for actions, not beliefs.
    Toughts and actions is to intertwined to even be parted. It's impossible to keep all your toughts to yourself which would be the only way for them to not spill over into your actions. You have to be some sort super human to not have your beliefs affect something outside your own mind.

  6. #2026
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    Toughts and actions is to intertwined to even be parted. It's impossible to keep all your toughts to yourself which would be the only way for them to not spill over into your actions. You have to be some sort super human to not have your beliefs affect something outside your own mind.
    And yet people are allowed to hold those beliefs, it is the action that gets them into trouble.

    What you're describing those unable to is really children? or people that just haven't learned better?
    Quote Originally Posted by spinner981
    I don't believe in observational proof because I have arrived at the conclusion that such a thing doesn't exist.

  7. #2027
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheresmywoft View Post
    And yet people are allowed to hold those beliefs, it is the action that gets them into trouble.

    What you're describing those unable to is really children? or people that just haven't learned better?
    Define action?

    For example, even something as harmless as typing your beliefs on a internet forum might have dire consequences.
    Don't you use both action and belief to create a post?

  8. #2028
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    Define action?

    For example, even something as harmless as typing your beliefs on a internet forum might have dire consequences.
    Don't you use both action and belief to create a post?
    Well, even in your example. Typing your beliefs and posting it to an online forum would be considered action.
    Quote Originally Posted by spinner981
    I don't believe in observational proof because I have arrived at the conclusion that such a thing doesn't exist.

  9. #2029
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheresmywoft View Post
    Well, even in your example. Typing your beliefs and posting it to an online forum would be considered action.
    And are you not taking action by not taking action?

  10. #2030
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    And are you not taking action by not taking action?
    Considering I've said it would be considered action, how are you trying to equivocate it with both taking and not taking action?
    Quote Originally Posted by spinner981
    I don't believe in observational proof because I have arrived at the conclusion that such a thing doesn't exist.

  11. #2031
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheresmywoft View Post
    Considering I've said it would be considered action, how are you trying to equivocate it with both taking and not taking action?
    If you think about something, and decide that you will not take action, is that not an action by itself?
    Maybe i am being to philosophical. *shrug*

  12. #2032
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    If you think about something, and decide that you will not take action, is that not an action by itself?
    Maybe i am being to philosophical. *shrug*
    Is not changing the channel on the TV an action? it is a decision, not sure how you want to consider it an action, philosophical or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by spinner981
    I don't believe in observational proof because I have arrived at the conclusion that such a thing doesn't exist.

  13. #2033
    Titan Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    You cannot persecute people based on their beliefs, even if their clearly wrong because for them, they are right and forcing them will just make the situation worse as you can observe everywhere virtually there's a cultural war going on right now between people who want change and people who doesn't want and both sides want to force their opinion resulting in a total shitfest.
    Well -- you absolutely can persecute people for their beliefs if their beliefs harm other people. There have been some well documented cases of the exercise of religious freedom harming others and people having to pay the price for that. Discrimination is no different -- even if people seem to think it's a victimless crime (it isn't).

  14. #2034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Well -- you absolutely can persecute people for their beliefs if their beliefs harm other people. There have been some well documented cases of the exercise of religious freedom harming others and people having to pay the price for that. Discrimination is no different -- even if people seem to think it's a victimless crime (it isn't).
    People will always discriminate.
    Nothing people do will change that, and people will walk over others corpses to be able to continue to discriminate.

    It is reality, and reality is filled with wonders and pitfalls.
    Enjoy life and stop giving a "#¤% what others think, grow a thick hide and understand that whatever you do, people will hate you for no reason.

    The more you fight it, the more the opposition will fight back, it grows and grows and the only result is chaos and death.
    Learn how to stroke people's hair the correct way, it is meaningless to attempt to change someones beliefs so just keep quiet irl, and behave like a good citizen. And others will automatically expect that your ideals are the same as theirs. And you will not have to deal with the current crap going on.

    The least effective ways to change someones opinion is definitively logic and reasoning. Where strongest being herd mentality, brain wash and Alpha leader mentality, and they all are the sides of the same coin. A strong alpha will influence many people which in turn creates herd mentality which leads to brain wash.
    Last edited by mmocdfdf1a8f27; 2016-04-29 at 12:07 AM.

  15. #2035
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    People will always discriminate.
    Nothing people do will change that, and people will walk over others corpses to be able to continue to discriminate.

    It is reality, and reality is filled with wonders and pitfalls.
    Enjoy life and stop giving a "#¤% what others think, grow a thick hide and understand that whatever you do, people will hate you for no reason.
    People will always kill each other, too.

    That doesn't mean we should greenlight murder.


  16. #2036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    People will always kill each other, too.

    That doesn't mean we should greenlight murder.
    Nice Strawman logic there alright. But maybe it's true, i read recently that some people killed eachother because of fried chicken.
    Last edited by mmocdfdf1a8f27; 2016-04-29 at 06:39 AM.

  17. #2037
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    It goes beyond just emotional, there are hardships that someone faces when denied services simply because of their characteristics. You open that floodgate of allowing discrimination, an entire area gets that freedom which hurts those on the receiving end. This freedom and right to discriminate conflicts with others' freedoms and rights. That is why it's made illegal and rightly so.

    You still didn't answer who gets the leg up from the CRA.
    If that's the case we should prosecute people who bring mental pain and anguish to their former partners when they break up. He/she caused that person mental and emotional turmoil. Do you see where I'm getting at? Telling someone you don't want them is not mental abuse. That's a ridiculous argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Could you kindly try sticking to the point, rather than building straw men? This has nothing to do with what I said.
    Don't be shtty. I responding to what the other guy said. It was below his quoted words after all.



    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Outliers don't represent the general trend. Basic statistics.
    True, but since when has it been the trend for more than a handful of people to be rich?


    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not even a tiny little bit, no. It doesn't involve thoughts or opinions in any way whatsoever. It's about actions.
    Like coercing someone to serve another even though it has been against their religion's dogma since the religion was founded? "You don't have the right religious views. We're going to sue you into oblivion for wanting to distance yourselves from what you think is sin and what I think is fine."



    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Why are we forcing a person to not murder people who annoy them, by threat of imprisonment? That's coercion, by the same non-argument you're using.
    This is a strawman, and it really has nothing to do with whether or not you should be able to use governmental coercion to have someone serve you. The fact you're trying to put "leave my property" on equal ground with "gonna murder someone who annoys me" is very disturbing.

    Again, I say that your rights end where you end. (property included imo) I contest the idea that asking someone to leave your property is harmful to them let alone harmful enough to warrant equating it with murder. Sure, you can cherry pick situations to make someone who asks someone to leave seem cruel or whatever, but that's beside the point and a non-issue.


    EDIT: On a lighter note, i have discovered the "Logical Fallacy Ref" meme. I am amused.
    Last edited by Dren The Black; 2016-04-29 at 08:41 AM.

  18. #2038
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    People will always discriminate.
    Nothing people do will change that, and people will walk over others corpses to be able to continue to discriminate.

    It is reality, and reality is filled with wonders and pitfalls.
    Enjoy life and stop giving a "#¤% what others think, grow a thick hide and understand that whatever you do, people will hate you for no reason.

    The more you fight it, the more the opposition will fight back, it grows and grows and the only result is chaos and death.
    Learn how to stroke people's hair the correct way, it is meaningless to attempt to change someones beliefs so just keep quiet irl, and behave like a good citizen. And others will automatically expect that your ideals are the same as theirs. And you will not have to deal with the current crap going on.

    The least effective ways to change someones opinion is definitively logic and reasoning. Where strongest being herd mentality, brain wash and Alpha leader mentality, and they all are the sides of the same coin. A strong alpha will influence many people which in turn creates herd mentality which leads to brain wash.
    People will always do "X" we should just let them. What the actual fuck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dren The Black View Post
    Like coercing someone to serve another even though it has been against their religion's dogma since the religion was founded? "You don't have the right religious views. We're going to sue you into oblivion for wanting to distance yourselves from what you think is sin and what I think is fine."
    You have still not answered why offering a service is somehow coerced out of you. The business owner chose to enter into business as a place of public accommodation.

    There are many things supposedly against the religion's dogma, they don't seem to really care about all but one.
    Quote Originally Posted by spinner981
    I don't believe in observational proof because I have arrived at the conclusion that such a thing doesn't exist.

  19. #2039
    Quote Originally Posted by dir View Post
    People should be able to refuse any interaction with anyone for any reason. That ability should extend to their work and anything that they do. Making people do things that they don't want to do is wrong.
    If your sole purpose is to make money and stay afloat, why would you deny business to a paying customer?
    I get that you want to quote your fairy tale books (while not following 99.9% of the teachings in there), but get a clue please.

  20. #2040
    Titan Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexew View Post
    People will always discriminate.
    Nothing people do will change that, and people will walk over others corpses to be able to continue to discriminate.

    It is reality, and reality is filled with wonders and pitfalls.
    Enjoy life and stop giving a "#¤% what others think, grow a thick hide and understand that whatever you do, people will hate you for no reason.
    How exactly are people supposed to grow a thick skin when legal rights are being withheld and ridiculous things like what bathroom people should use are now being legislated?

    "Just grow a thicker skin" is the response from someone who has never had to deal with this sort of thing. It isn't about hurt feelings and being tough, it's about being able to live your life without having to travel 100 miles to get gas, or worry that walking into the bathroom will result in 6 months in jail.

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