Why does the US support Israel so much?

[Deleted]

If the bloodshed ends, people would be less stubborn and super defensive about making compromises that would benefit all parties involved.

Yes, because the Party charter of Likud does not expressly reject the formation of a Palestinian state.

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs."

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So if Palestinians laid down their arms, Israel will return the lands they invaded to the real owners or keep invading more?
Wonder what that Israeli would answer to that.

I think this one is about as useful:
If the Israelis would just move back to Europe and the US, then there would be peace.

[Gaidax]

Yes, because the Party charter of Likud does not expressly reject the formation of a Palestinian state.

You seem to be forgetting that unlike the shit countries that surround us - we in Israel are democracy and Benjamin Netanyahu is not our King, Eternal President or Beloved Leader.

Likud is merely one party, but it is getting just sufficient votes (just barely, mind you) to keep them and Netanyahu in power. The reason they get votes is first and foremost the understanding that there are no deals to be had with Hamas and all the literal terrorist acts committed by random Palestinian hotheads who get brainwashed from childhood in the territories.

When you have people with knives attacking pedestrians, buses exploding, rockets fired and constant pledges to destroy Israel - people do not vote for parties that offer peace and two-state solution - they vote for Likud.

I want to remind you - back in early 1990s one pro-peace party came to power and it resulted in actual peace lasting for some time, this was ruined, but the point is simple - if Palestinians would be truly ready for peace and stop these acts that only increase Israeli population animosity - then Likud would very fast lose it's power and the same party who already made peace (albeit somewhat short-lived) once, could come to power and do it again and this time hopefully forever.

[Mavett]

Yes, because the Party charter of Likud does not expressly reject the formation of a Palestinian state.


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I think this one is about as useful:
If the Israelis would just move back to Europe and the US, then there would be peace.

Policies change, same with political parties.

[Deleted]

Policies change, same with political parties.

Yes, and if Fatah had the same line about Israel, well - the West spend decades forcing them to change that one.

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I want to remind you - back in early 1990s one pro-peace party came to power and it resulted in actual peace lasting for some time, this was ruined, but the point is simple - if Palestinians would be truly ready for peace and stop these acts that only increase Israeli population animosity - then Likud would very fast lose it's power and the same party who already made peace (albeit somewhat short-lived) once, could come to power and do it again and this time hopefully forever.

You mean the Olso accords?
And then the second Intifada, which began with Ariel Sharons visit and declaration that the Temple mount was Israeli now and forever?
I'm seeing the problem.
Maybe the west should have sanction Israel when it elects anyone from likud to , anything, including dog catcher?

[Deleted]

if Palestinians would be truly ready for peace and stop these acts that only increase Israeli population animosity - then Likud would very fast lose it's power

There you have the problem, if there where peace Likud would louse power. It is in Likud interest that the conflict continue.....

[Gaidax]

You mean the Olso accords?
And then the second Intifada, which began with Ariel Sharons visit and declaration that the Temple mount was Israeli now and forever?
I'm seeing the problem.
Maybe the west should have sanction Israel when it elects anyone from likud to , anything, including dog catcher?

Yes I mean that, what caused Second Intifada is a bunch of small mutual violations which made both sides discontent and brooding over Oslo results, Ariel Sharon was merely a spark, although it was a foolish act still.

As for sanctioning Likud - don't see why it should be done, it's a standard moderate right wing party that acts like one.

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There you have the problem, if there where peace Likud would louse power. It is in Likud interest that the conflict continue.....

Just as much as it is interest of Hamas, for example.

See? The circle goes round and round.

But, with enough reason it can be broken, just need people with balls on both sides who can do it. Oslo was really a very big achievement, unfortunately the assholes on both sides ruined that chance, but it may come back again if people with vision would rise and stop this bloodshed to allow peace to progress.

[Deleted]

Just as much as it is interest of Hamas, for example.

But, with enough reason it can be broken, just need people with balls on both sides who can do it. Oslo was really a very big achievement, unfortunately the assholes on both sides ruined that chance, but it may come back again if people with vision would rise and stop this bloodshed to allow peace to progress.

Yes its intresting to put in perspective what London did toward "Real IRA" when they started a new wave of terror to destroy the peace process. They ask "orginal" IRA to condemn "Real IRA" and did noting toward "orginal" IRA.

[Deleted]

Yes its intresting to put in perspective what London did toward "Real IRA" when they started a new wave of terror to destroy the peace process. They ask "orginal" IRA to condemn "Real IRA" and did noting toward "orginal" IRA.

Wonder if there is some kind of motivation that could explain this desire for an eternal war?

[Mayhem]

You seem to be forgetting that unlike the shit countries that surround us - we in Israel are democracy and Benjamin Netanyahu is not our King, Eternal President or Beloved Leader.

Likud is merely one party, but it is getting just sufficient votes (just barely, mind you) to keep them and Netanyahu in power. The reason they get votes is first and foremost the understanding that there are no deals to be had with Hamas and all the literal terrorist acts committed by random Palestinian hotheads who get brainwashed from childhood in the territories.

When you have people with knives attacking pedestrians, buses exploding, rockets fired and constant pledges to destroy Israel - people do not vote for parties that offer peace and two-state solution - they vote for Likud.

I want to remind you - back in early 1990s one pro-peace party came to power and it resulted in actual peace lasting for some time, this was ruined, but the point is simple - if Palestinians would be truly ready for peace and stop these acts that only increase Israeli population animosity - then Likud would very fast lose it's power and the same party who already made peace (albeit somewhat short-lived) once, could come to power and do it again and this time hopefully forever.

How in your mind wouldn´t Likud present this as a win because of their policy? I mean, am i missing something here?

[Pangean]

Whether or not a historical Palestinian nation existed is irrelevant to the current situation. Palestinians exist now, most of the ones alive today had nothing to do with the wars against Israel and they can't just move to another country because nobody will take them, and hence something needs to be done to settle the question of their status. If Israel wants to absorb them then I don't think anyone would have a problem with that at this point, but they'd have to made citizens with the same rights as everyone else.

Will never happen. Demographically non-jews would become a majority in the 2030's in a combined Israel. If given the same rights as everyone else they would essentially be able to change the nature of the Israeli state. So in order to maintain the current control they would have to establish what is essentially an apartheid state. The only solution as such is two-state.

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Just as much as it is interest of Hamas, for example.

See? The circle goes round and round.

But, with enough reason it can be broken, just need people with balls on both sides who can do it. Oslo was really a very big achievement, unfortunately the assholes on both sides ruined that chance, but it may come back again if people with vision would rise and stop this bloodshed to allow peace to progress.

Not sure how you see this happening without something fundamentally changing. Hamas and the PA are quite happy with the current situation. The PA leaders are corrupt and rake millions off of aid to their personal bank accounts. Hamas uses the current situation as a recruiting tool for their extremist agenda. Essentially most Israeli parties who favor two-state have little or no say in the government of Israel. Those who do hold power are silent or open supporters of a Greater Israel. And based on election results the Israeli people seem to be supportive of that.

Without significant external pressure on both sides I see nothing changing. We can start with cutting off funds to the PA till they have open and free elections. We can also cut off aid to Israel by 100 million for each acre of land they confiscate. And these are tiny first steps.

[Gaidax]

How in your mind wouldn´t Likud present this as a win because of their policy? I mean, am i missing something here?

Of course they will, as would any sane party in the world. But this really does not matter long-term, because such victories are soon forgotten. This is a necessary step to vote Likud out, but it is not happening. Ironically, PA and Hamas are by far biggest Likud friends.

And honestly, I don't care if Netanyahu is pronounced to be a saint that achieved peace as long as that goal will be ultimately achieved.

But on Palestinian street you have tons of trouble as well, PA is basically not only powerless to act, it is even illegitimate government if you go there, because technically they were voted out of the office. Hamas on the other hand will get eaten by IS, if it even thinks for a moment of stopping with their resistance nonsense.

Of course on the other hand - people in Israel see this and they form a very sane opinion of no chance for peace, thus we need to hold our ground, then you get right parties in the office every election because of that understanding.

[Roggendorf]

Mearsheimer and Walt wrote a book in the subject. Respected political scientists. Might give you some insight : http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U.../dp/0374531501

[Gaidax]

Without significant external pressure on both sides I see nothing changing. We can start with cutting off funds to the PA till they have open and free elections. We can also cut off aid to Israel by 100 million for each acre of land they confiscate. And these are tiny first steps.

Bad idea...

But assuming you do that - you think Hamas would suddenly become nice and docile? They can't afford it, because if they do that - they will be wiped out by even bigger extremists than they are. PA, on the other hand is on a verge of collapse as it is, putting pressure on it will bring it to ruin and make things even worse.

Israel on the other hand won't be trading out it's survival for a couple of bucks. It's not like less aid would suddenly make Netanyahu go hug Abbas, at best you will get another dishonest showmanship effort, if that.

But all that is irrelevant, because whoever does such thing in US will be slaughtered by the elite next elections. US democracy is as fake as it gets, people think they are in control of presidential election, but in reality it is the guys who pour in money are those who decide it and these guys, thankfully, are pro-Israel.

[Pangean]

Bad idea...

But assuming you do that - you think Hamas would suddenly become nice and docile? They can't afford it, because if they do that - they will be wiped out by even bigger extremists than they are. PA, on the other hand is on a verge of collapse as it is, putting pressure on it will bring it to ruin and make things even worse.

Israel on the other hand won't be trading out it's survival for a couple of bucks. It's not like less aid would suddenly make Netanyahu go hug Abbas, at best you will get another dishonest showmanship effort, if that.

But all that is irrelevant, because whoever does such thing in US will be slaughtered by the elite next elections. US democracy is as fake as it gets, people think they are in control of presidential election, but in reality it is the guys who pour in money are those who decide it and these guys, thankfully, are pro-Israel.

tiny first steps.... The status quo is unacceptable. Significant external pressure is what is needed. Otherwise we accept the current state.

[Gaidax]

tiny first steps.... The status quo is unacceptable. Significant external pressure is what is needed. Otherwise we accept the current state.

Well I told you what will happen and basically that amounts to nothing good because of simple reasons stated. Tiny first steps... I'll tell you what would be a tiny first step, recognize the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization (hell US even registered Hamas as such) in control of Gaza and sweep that den of terror clean with permanent international peacekeeping force stationed there for years to come and after that we can talk peace.

How about that as a tiny first step and significant external pressure?

[Pangean]

Well I told you what will happen and basically that amounts to nothing good because of simple reasons stated. Tiny first steps... I'll tell you what would be a tiny first step, recognize the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization (hell US even registered Hamas as such) in control of Gaza and sweep that den of terror clean with permanent international peacekeeping force stationed there for years to come and after that we can talk peace.

How about that as a tiny first step and significant external pressure?

I have no issue at all with that. However I would extend that to all the occupied territories and east Jerusalem.

[Gaidax]

I have no issue at all with that. However I would extend that to all the occupied territories and east Jerusalem.

Be my guest, I am absolutely not interested seeing that shithole as a part of my country.

What I am interested is in living in peace in Israel, while Palestinians live in peace in Palestine. I am not interested in eternal war over this dustball.

[Pangean]

Be my guest, I am absolutely not interested seeing that shithole as a part of my country.

What I am interested is in living in peace in Israel, while Palestinians live in peace in Palestine. I am not interested in eternal war over this dustball.

We agree. Sadly you are a minority.

[Howard Moon]

Isn't it because American Jews are rich and powerful?