Legion classes seem to be in an unfinished state and this is concerning.

[Soisoisoi]

Honestly op normally I'd just call you an idiot for saying such things whilst we're still in Alpha, but the fact Rogues have been wanting the same changes for the last God knows how many builds and nothing has changed, not even any feedback... It's a bit worrying to say the least.

[Deleted]

No, you're just being impatient. Legion is still in alpha, they said they're going to tune Arms/Fury Warriors.

[Echo of Soul]

I want to see this evidence you have that the state of the build indicates alpha, because so far you've given nothing but a textbook definition (which hasn't fit ANY blizzard alpha/beta cycle) and a lot of arrogance.

No problem. This post is less than a day old and comes directly from Blizzard:


But like I said I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to move into beta quite soon given how rapidly everything has been coming together.

[Deleted]

Perhaps if people were to list some specific class related fears instead of vague and in most cases completely untrue fear mongering, then those of us who are in alpha can try to address them? Im not saying every spec is perfect or boasts amazing dynamic play (lol Arms and BM), but the state of play right now is nowhere near as dull or as broken as some have been trying to make it out to be.

Sure, let's use Survival as an example.
1) Its unique mechanic, Mongoose Bite stacks, is dogshit. Boring ability, crappy interaction with the rest of the rotation and will either make the spec godlike in PvP or trash in PvE.
2) Its talent tree is dogshit. Virtually zero meaningful choices and few of the talents even change the rotation. The ones that do, like Way of the Mok'Nathal, aren't viable.
3) Its "flavor" or ability set in general is dogshit. Throwing traps? A copy of Rend? Throwing Axes? Flanking Strike is probably the least dull ability. No, a melee hunter could be much more interesting than this.
Compare the spec to more well-designed melee alternatives like Unholy or Subtlety. The difference is huge.

[Raiju]

But like I said I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to move into beta quite soon given how rapidly everything has been coming together.

So to you beta is some arbitrary thing that is only true when the marketing teams decides it is?

Let me spell something out for you:
People weren't arguing about alpha/beta because of the name, they were arguing it because of the content available.

So once again, without relying on arbitrary shifting defintions give EVIDENCE that this 'alpha' is not in a state that previous blizzard expansions have been called 'beta'. Your original point was:

It's alpha, or beta as some people claimed before they found out the release date. Some specs are nearing completion but some are still being iterated on based on feedback from the alpha-testers.

So is this an argument that the release date matters? Well we're 4 months away, which already puts us well into beta by most previous expansions (I believe the shortest was still over 4 months, and hte longest 7 months). On top of this, even as someone saying what we are playing is the equivalent of previous expansion betas I've been saying for months now the expansion likely won't be till mid august - weeks off. Do those 2 weeks magically change anything? No.

Beta is a marketing term now. It bears no relevance on the testing procedure as I originally pointed out. We are testing all the things we historically tested in 'beta' and blizzard is deciding not to release beta until the product is close enough finished to simply APPEAR finished, rather than inviting beta key winners for testing purposes.

[Nihilan]

About half the spec is designed around buffing or proccing Mongoose Bite stacks and you think it has poor interaction with the rest of the rotation? I will agree that SV hunters are likely going to be terrifying in pvp as they can dump a huge amount of damage in a relatively short amont of time by pooling their stacks and dumping them all at once.

The talent tree buffs or modifies existing abilities, notably how traps perform. Not every talent needs to be a game changer though.

Traps are the where the specs utility lies. Its CC, much of its AoE, and if talented some of its rotational ST as well. Traps have always been a staple of the hunter class. Why are you upset about it now of all times? Honestly, if you dont like interacting with ground targeted abilities, this is absolutely not going to be the spec for you. (Nor will the DH tank spec for what it is worth.)

Many melee specs have a dot component to their core damage. Again, i dont really see why this is worth complaining about.

[rda]

Perhaps if people were to list some specific class related fears instead of vague and in most cases completely untrue fear mongering, then those of us who are in alpha can try to address them? Im not saying every spec is perfect or boasts amazing dynamic play (lol Arms and BM), but the state of play right now is nowhere near as dull or as broken as some have been trying to make it out to be.

What makes you think you know more than those who complain?

But fine, go ahead, first example off the top of my head: unholy DK in PVP. No hard-hitters, damage comes in small chunks from lots of sources, which makes it complete crap for everything but AOE in 40v40 BGs. Very squishy. Very little utility.

Or take frost - compared to unholy he has hard-hitters, and is sturdier, but he has laughable gap closers, everyone and their dog except other frost DKs just run circles around him.

And that's just scratching the surface, because I didn't want to bother you with 10-20 item lists of talents that don't make sense and abilities that underdeliver.

[Nihilan]

What makes you think you know more than those who complain?

But fine, go ahead, first example off the top of my head: unholy DK in PVP. No hard-hitters, damage comes in small chunks from lots of sources, which makes it complete crap for everything but AOE in 40v40 BGs. Very squishy. Very little utility.

Or take frost - compared to unholy he has hard-hitters, and is sturdier, but he has laughable gap closers, everyone and their dog except other frost DKs just run circles around him.

And that's just scratching the surface, because I didn't want to bother you with 10-20 item lists of talents that don't make sense and abilities that underdeliver.

Blizzard has long since abandoned the notion that every spec has to be viable in pvp. It is the players that have been trying to maintain that fantasy. In some cases exceptional players do well with certain poorly represented specs, but in most cases it just leads to bitchy forum threads.

With regards to DK pvp, with its spread rot-damage, ranged stun, and run speed Unholy is obviously the spec of choice in all situations unless you are going to try for some kind of gimmick anti-melee outlast comp in which case Frosts increased durability will be more desirable. But not being in melee range strips Frost of its ability to stack is damage shield, so it will get shit on by ranged dps.

Rock-Paper-Scissors.

[Echo of Soul]

People weren't arguing about alpha/beta because of the name, they were arguing it because of the content available.

And nobody outside Blizzard are qualified to make that call. We have no idea what's left for them to do since we don't have access to their internal documents and such regarding the expansion, we can only observe what's been done so far. If Blizzard themselves label the build as alpha it doesn't matter what anyone says regardless of the state. They have probably set goals for themselves, this and this and this and this needs to be ready for testing before we move in to beta, and we the players have no clue what those things could be or what state they need to be in.

It feels like Blizzard is doing it right for once and when we get to beta this time around it'll be a much more complete product than it has been in the past. But again, until they say so it's still alpha.

[Raiju]

It feels like Blizzard is doing it right for once and when we get to beta this time around it'll be a much more complete product than it has been in the past. But again, until they say so it's still alpha.

Admits that we are further along than previous alphas, doesn't admit that COMPARED TO PREVIOUS ALPHAS/BETAS (the entire discussion) we are equivalently in beta.

Good job.

[Nihilan]

Yes, when the MoP beta went live there was very little content available for testing. As of right now, Legions "Alpha" is far further advanced with regards to what is available. IF/WHEN an actual proper "Beta" is announced it will be solely for the purpose of getting more bodies for tuning.

[Echo of Soul]

Admits that we are further along than previous alphas, doesn't admit that COMPARED TO PREVIOUS ALPHAS/BETAS (the entire discussion) we are equivalently in beta.

Good job.

Well it's largely irrelevant. It doesn't matter how things have worked in the past and this goes for anything in life, things can always change. The state of the game could be equal to previous X.0 versions and it wouldn't matter if Blizzard still labeled it pre-alpha and had a shitload more to do before release.
A race that have historically been 10 miles long one year changes to 20 miles. It doesn't mean that you're halfway done after 5 miles just because it's been like that forever.

And like I said, I think they are doing it right this time. And it shows a much more structured way of dealing with things than they have in the past. It's a good thing, but we have no way of knowing how much more they need to get done.

[Raiju]

Well it's largely irrelevant. It doesn't matter how things have worked in the past and this goes for anything in life, things can always change. The state of the game could be equal to previous X.0 versions and it wouldn't matter if Blizzard still labeled it pre-alpha and had a shitload more to do before release.
A race that have historically been 10 miles long one year changes to 20 miles. It doesn't mean that you're halfway done after 5 miles just because it's been like that forever.

This whole argument could've been avoided if you just admitted that you're not in alpha and don't know what has been announced to be in legion.

[rda]

Blizzard has long since abandoned the notion that every spec has to be viable in pvp. It is the players that have been trying to maintain that fantasy. In some cases exceptional players do well with certain poorly represented specs, but in most cases it just leads to bitchy forum threads.

With regards to DK pvp, with its spread rot-damage, ranged stun, and run speed Unholy is obviously the spec of choice in all situations unless you are going to try for some kind of gimmick anti-melee outlast comp in which case Frosts increased durability will be more desirable. But not being in melee range strips Frost of its ability to stack is damage shield, so it will get shit on by ranged dps.

Rock-Paper-Scissors.

I don't get it. What are you saying - are unholy / frost fine in PVP or not? I don't need generic nonsense like "Rock-Paper-Scissors" and I don't need your amateurishly simplistic opinion on which of the specs is better which is entirely based on past performance (spread rot-damage, ranged stun and run-speed might absolutely not compensate for no burst and squishiness), I am asking - do those who complain have reasons to complain or not? If not, please explain why.

Go ahead, you wanted to "address vague and in most cases completely untrue fears" of others - go ahead, address them.

[Echo of Soul]

This whole argument could've been avoided if you just admitted that you're not in alpha and don't know what has been announced to be in legion.

I know what has been announced. But an announcement doesn't equal a detailed schematic of how things are going to work.

The world quests is a perfect example. They're in the alpha now and we knew that they were coming but we didn't know how they were going to work and what the rewards were going to be and we still don't know. Much of the content is placeholder and that is the nature of alpha. We might get all different types of world quests that are currently not in the alpha, we don't know because they don't tell us.

[Kalador]

It's the same thing every alpha/beta... People say their class is UNPLAYABLE and BROKEN when only a few things might need some tweaks or tuning. Just like Brm last expac.... In the beta people were crying that it was so broken and that they would all reroll for other tanks and guess what, they were wrong and brm ended up being a powerhouse of tanking for WoD... Sub rogues were arguing that twisting blade was so bad it was the worst thing for the class and next thing you know they're all crying it's removed in legion. People are like that they need to cry a bit when things change and then they realise it's not as bad as they think it would be.

When next alpha/beta is there, they cry that the old iteration was the best and that the new one is shit and the cycle restart.

[Woop Woop]

Admits that we are further along than previous alphas, doesn't admit that COMPARED TO PREVIOUS ALPHAS/BETAS (the entire discussion) we are equivalently in beta.

Good job.

It's still being called alpha. They can call it alpha until they decide to release the expansion. Don't get so hung up on the god damn name.

[Raiju]

It's still being called alpha. They can call it alpha until they decide to release the expansion. Don't get so hung up on the god damn name.

I'm not - I'm getting hung up on the implication that the name is relevant to the content, you might want to aim this comment at @Vidget

[Echo of Soul]

It's still being called alpha. They can call it alpha until they decide to release the expansion. Don't get so hung up on the god damn name.

Exactly. It could contain more content than all the other expansions combined but it's still called alpha so it's alpha until they decide it's not.

[Justpassing]

Ayyy relax guy! It's still in Alpha! Wait for the launch to judge!