Protection legion Discussion

[Breccia]

This is why its hard to argue here.

It is extremely easy to argue. You're wrong.

Using AMR's best in slot, double-valor-upgraded, "offensive" (crit > all) build, you can hit 40% crit and 10,400 AP. (Getting more Crit sacrifices way too much Str and you end up losing damage) Based on wowdb's formulas,
a) TC does 117.6% AP damage and another 420% over 15 seconds. T
b) Revenge does 374% AP on the main target, and half to each of two more.
On five targets, that's 357,240 total including everything.
Now filter in +40% damage from crits and that's 500k damage. That's a lot!

Except your max health is nearly 600k and you still didn't make it. A sixth target adds one more TC/Deep Wounds hit and you still don't make it, although admittedly you're closer.

All while assuming you have the maximum technically realistic crit from every single possible source, including double-valor-upgraded mythic warforged with a socket in literally every slot. Is someone who's really mostly interested in PvP going to have this? Actually, no, is ANYONE going to have this? Isn't that nearly mathematically impossible to have? Take off the sockets and warforged only and your AP/Crit drop by 8%/5% respectively, and the 5-target damage drops to 445k, far lower than your max health.

Also, this doesn't count damage reduction by armor, dodge, parry or block. Which in PvP a lot of your targets will have.

Also, this comparison is pretty disingenuous. Most of the listed damage above, namely sixty-one percent of it, is Deep Wounds over fifteen seconds. Some of those targets will be healed in that time. Others might have shields up that prevent the damage from TC and by proxy Deep Wounds. Or, you might be dead in less than 15 seconds and not get the full effect of that 3% leech.

Which we won't even have in the first place, making this irrelevant.

[mindw0rk]

It is extremely easy to argue. You're wrong

How Im wrong if you just proved with your math that this simple combo dmg that is done in 2 seconds is very close to warrs hp? Yes, there are armor/shield mitigations (does armor even mitigate Thunder Clap?), but there are also dmg modifiers in Artifact perks. You wont always have 5-6 people around, but warr has alot of other damaging tools which he uses nonstop, including Neltharion Fury burst that can be ramped to huge numbers by stacking dmg boost cds and Battle Cry.

In BGs to top 15% hp with 3% leech in 30 seconds wont be hard at all. In dungeons on packs it would be even easier.

[Breccia]

How Im wrong if you just proved with your math that this simple combo dmg that is done in 2 seconds is very close to warrs hp?

I was specific that 61% of the damage came from Deep Wounds over 15 seconds, not two. And it was based on unrealistic stats and unarmored targets. You fail at reading AND math. Nice.

Yes, there are armor/shield mitigations (does armor even mitigate Thunder Clap?)

It doesn't stop Deep Wounds, the majority of the damage, but it will stop Thunder Clap. And the Revenge hit. Heals and/or absorbs will shut down Deep Wounds, and there's not a ton you can do about that.

but there are also dmg modifiers in Artifact perks. You wont always have 5-6 people around, but warr has alot of other damaging tools which he uses nonstop, including Neltharion Fury burst that can be ramped to huge numbers by stacking dmg boost cds and Battle Cry.

Wait, we're still talking about PvP, right? Because

In BGs to top 15% hp with 3% leech in 30 seconds wont be hard at all. In dungeons on packs it would be even easier.

There is a zero percent chance 5-6 people are going to stand in front of your artifact channel for three seconds without fearing, disorienting, interrupting, stunning you or knocking you back. Those fuckers are either scattering like leaves or CCing you while you can't fight back. Or if they do, they deserve to die and you shouldn't feel good about your numbers. That's some wounded rabbit crawling onto the interstate stuff there.

And as I demonstrated before (pretty sure you didn't read it) 15% hp with 3% leech and 500k max hp would require 83,333 DPS, more damage than at least three-fourths of mythic tanks that actually exist, on any raid boss there is. If you think the average PvPer is going to routinely hit that, make sure you link your source.

I get that you're upset. Join the club. But what you're upset about -- the ability to do those kinds of heals you were talking about -- never existed.

[Deleted]

Reading this makes me wish normal talents didn't work in pvp.

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WTF? So If I play prot for BGs, choosing in 30 tier is now: "what garbage is least useless"? What a disaster. Previous build all three talents were good and made a hard choice.


Testers, ask Blizzard to make Impending Victory to heal for 30% after a kill. To make this talent at least decent. Reducing cooldown to 20 seconds would also be a big improvement.
And they need to return heal to prot from Inspiring Presence. Who the hell would even take it now when warrior has 0 benefits from it? Its terrible for anything except maybe raids, but even in raids many tanks would choose Impending Crap for emergency heal.

what for. afaik impeding doesn't replace victory rush this time around. so you can have both.

[Stagga24]

I'd just want so much something like "SS/Rev critical hit generate 5 rage extra". It would be high rng, as blizz like, but it's more under control than damage taken (and it increase with gear, not the opposite.

I think that's exactly what one of the legendaries do

[mindw0rk]

I was specific that 61% of the damage came from Deep Wounds over 15 seconds, not two. And it was based on unrealistic stats and unarmored targets. You fail at reading AND math. Nice.

It is you fail to read and understand. I said combo is done in 2 seconds, bleed that ticks doesnt go anywhere. How exactly healing will shut it down? It will prevent target from dying, not from receieving dmg from bleeds. Also you mention unarmored target so eagerly but never mentioned that damage is also ramped by mastery and talents like Relentless Assault. Either mention this also or dont speak about unarmored targets at all.

And can you explain me why you say in your math that TC deals 117% AP dmg? Its in fact 175% base +30% from artifact trait = 226% AP dmg. So about twice as much as you math'ed.

There is a zero percent chance 5-6 people are going to stand in front of your artifact channel for three seconds without fearing, disorienting, interrupting, stunning you or knocking you back. Those fuckers are either scattering like leaves or CCing you while you can't fight back. Or if they do, they deserve to die and you shouldn't feel good about your numbers. That's some wounded rabbit crawling onto the interstate stuff there.

Such masta theorycrafter and didnt figure such a simple thing, that you always Shockwave them before using Neltharion Fury?

what for. afaik impeding doesn't replace victory rush this time around. so you can have both.

Tooltip says it replaces it.

[Breccia]

It is you fail to read and understand. I said combo is done in 2 seconds, bleed that ticks doesnt go anywhere.

*ahem*

How Im wrong if you just proved with your math that this simple combo dmg that is done in 2 seconds is very close to warrs hp?

LIAR.

Give it up. This is a non-issue anyhow and I'm done swatting down your attempts to defend your invalid numbers.

[mindw0rk]

This is a non-issue anyhow and I'm done swatting down your attempts to defend your invalid numbers.

Funny how you accuse me of invalid numbers after you claimed that TC does 117% AP dmg while tooltip clearly states it's 175%. How hard it is to go to wowhead and check it, seriously? And whats your math worth if you fail to input correct variables?

[Breccia]

Funny how you accuse me of invalid numbers after you claimed that TC does 117% AP dmg while tooltip clearly states it's 175%. How hard it is to go to wowhead and check it, seriously? And whats your math worth if you fail to input correct variables?

That's where I went. YOU IDIOT.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=6343/thunder-clap



Ignored. Waste someone else's time.

[mindw0rk]

That's where I went. YOU IDIOT.

So you discuss Legion scenario and instead of taking data from Legion build you take it from WoD build? And after this you call ME and idiot? wow.. just wow..

[Ashenia]

Could we go back on track ans not bother about non existing issues? You will only lose your focus on things that matters, nothing good comes out of chatter like that. You proven already enough to reat, at least in my opinion.

There are quite interesting comments on wow forums last build by a Dk named Draslin. Not sure what we would still like to go forward to current build. Beside that, I would rather like Mocking Banner back instead of Warlords Challenge even for cost of +2/1 min CD. Rest seems going proper way with major issues for myself being;
- channel on NF
- not much of a major trait, MotV as gain isnt big compared to other traits
- IP scaling
- rage gen and stamina

[mindw0rk]

Could we go back on track ans not bother about non existing issues?

You called Second Wind in 30 tier huge issue since it was useless in raids and it was pointed out everywhere in beta feedback. Now they removed it and made whole 30 tier absolutely fucking useless for leveling and world pvp/BG. There isnt a single talent that is worth taking in this row. How its not existing issue?

I am wrong? Then tell me which of 30 tier talents will help in leveling for example? Impending Victory? Its worse to have this talent then not to have it since 30% heal after kill is way superior then 15% heal. Inspiring Presence? Does nothing. 0 effect for warrior. Safeguard? 0 use during leveling or in dungeons/raids. As I said before its pure arena talent.

[Marok]

You called Second Wind in 30 tier huge issue since it was useless in raids and it was pointed out everywhere in beta feedback. Now they removed it and made whole 30 tier absolutely fucking useless for leveling and world pvp/BG. There isnt a single talent that is worth taking. How its not existing issue?

I am wrong? Then tell me which of 30 tier talents will help in leveling for example? Impending Victory? Its worse to have this talent then not to have it since 30% heal after kill is way superior then 15% heal. Inspiring Presence? Does nothing. 0 effect for warrior. Safeguard? 0 use during leveling or in dungeons. As I said before its pure arena talent.

Our 30 tier is far from useless. Impending Victory is good for (world) bosses, single high health mobs, etc. Really anything where you can't chain Victory Rush. The fact that we don't heal from Inspiring Presence sucks, I'll give you that. Safeguard can be helpful for dungeon situations where a healer or DPS pulls/rips a pack of mobs. Intercept them so they take reduced damage which gives you some extra time to gain aggro. I can see it also being useful for some boss fights, although I'll admit I don't think it'll picked over Inspiring Presence in most situations. Is it the best talent tier ever made? No, far from it. But it's definitely not useless. And all of these talents are far more useful than Second Wind could ever be.

[Beardyface]

The best thing I think we can do at this point is ask questions in the Theorycrafting thread. That's the only place we're getting answers. Marokk just asked about Ignore Pain capping, which is great, as some of the testing in the official feedback thread turned up weird numbers.

Most of what we need to know that would fall into Theorycrafting would be about what does and does not generate rage, and whether or not some of those things that don't generate rage are intended.

My list would be:

1. What does Versatility do to our rage gain? Is it a linear reduction in rage based on the gain in damage reduction from versatility, or is versatility not intended to affect rage gain at all?
2. Indomitable currently lowers our rage gain. Is that intended?
3. Ancestral Vigor currently lowers our rage gain. Is that intended?
4. Last Stand currently lowers our rage gain. Is that intended?
5. Motion, stun and knockback currently cancel the defensive portion of Neltharion's Fury. Is that intended?
6. What is the proc chance on Scales of Earth?

There are of course more questions I'd like answered, but they're ignoring stuff in the Theorycrafting thread that doesn't relate to Theorycrafting, for the most part. And, yes, I know some of my questions are borderline, but I'd at least like to know about Versatility.

Also, has anyone actually tested whether or not we gain rage from the unblocked portion of a block event? I assume we do, since it seems like we'd be rage starved otherwise, but I've not seen anyone test it to make sure.

Theorycrafting thread is here:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743504316

[Ashenia]

Our 30 tier is far from useless. Impending Victory is good for (world) bosses, single high health mobs, etc. Really anything where you can't chain Victory Rush. The fact that we don't heal from Inspiring Presence sucks, I'll give you that. Safeguard can be helpful for dungeon situations where a healer or DPS pulls/rips a pack of mobs. Intercept them so they take reduced damage which gives you some extra time to gain aggro. I can see it also being useful for some boss fights, although I'll admit I don't think it'll picked over Inspiring Presence in most situations. Is it the best talent tier ever made? No, far from it. But it's definitely not useless. And all of these talents are far more useful than Second Wind could ever be.

Not much to add. The loss of extra heal from IP is bit annoying as it is a main choice for raids for sure. Would be glad to get it back as gain isnt huge anyway. This tier was greatly balanced from what it was, which is something I moaned for quite a long time. So yes I do think this was a good.move, could add some extras now to it via pointless trait Might of the Vyrkul like:
- during DS ur IV has low CD or none
- during DS ur IPresence heals you for 10/5%
- after using DS your next two SG dr are increased by 15%
Your pick, plenty of option to make this tier awesome and have some synergy with DS.

[Ealyssa]

That's where I went. YOU IDIOT.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=6343/thunder-clap



Ignored. Waste someone else's time.

Protip for "idiot", using your own word :

http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=6343/thunder-clap

Wowhead's legion site starts with legion in the url...

[mindw0rk]

Our 30 tier is far from useless. Impending Victory is good for (world) bosses, single high health mobs, etc. Really anything where you can't chain Victory Rush. The fact that we don't heal from Inspiring Presence sucks, I'll give you that. Safeguard can be helpful for dungeon situations where a healer or DPS pulls/rips a pack of mobs. Intercept them so they take reduced damage which gives you some extra time to gain aggro. I can see it also being useful for some boss fights, although I'll admit I don't think it'll picked over Inspiring Presence in most situations. Is it the best talent tier ever made? No, far from it. But it's definitely not useless. And all of these talents are far more useful than Second Wind could ever be.

With second wind you could heal nonstop between pulls both during leveling or dungeon runs, it was useful to regen vs elites that could be kited (much better healing then Impending Crap), it was amazing talent for any forms of PvP.

And now look at your description of new talents that are "better". 15% heal useful vs world bosses/high hp elites which you rarely meet and you loose 15% additional healing from killing common mobs which you meet all the time. Inspiring presence - you recognize is crap. As for Safeguard, look me in the eyes and tell me, how many times while tanking you intercept to friendly target? Ive watched few Yse dungeon runs in Legion, he never did it.

Problem with Safeguard in PvE is good tank wont loose aggro so he wouldnt need to use Safeguard (if one mob slips, taunt is much more efficient). Bad player can loose aggro but bad player wont be aware who needs safeguard and for sure wont click on his frame to use Safeguard, so for him its also useless.

[dd614]

Some Mexican anti-Trump thug maced two little girls in the face because their mother is a Hispanic Trump supporter.

[Breccia]

Wowhead's legion site starts with legion in the url...

Okay, fine. Then Thunderclap doesn't spread Deep Wounds, and he misses half the targets. Damage provably drops even lower. He's still wrong.

EDIT: Unless he can convince me that, in PvP, he can round up 5-6 Alliance in a frontal attack, with the aforementioned maximal stats, and nobody wearing armor. None of which I'm buying.

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Some Mexican anti-Trump thug maced two little girls in the face because their mother is a Hispanic Trump supporter.

And you are clearly lost.

[mindw0rk]

Okay, fine. Then Thunderclap doesn't spread Deep Wounds, and he misses half the targets. Damage provably drops even lower. He's still wrong.

Revenge does. Before arguing and saying how "wrong" I am, learn the basics