Legion classes seem to be in an unfinished state and this is concerning.

[SirBeef]

I don't get it. What are you saying - are unholy / frost fine in PVP or not? I don't need generic nonsense like "Rock-Paper-Scissors" and I don't need your amateurishly simplistic opinion on which of the specs is better which is entirely based on past performance (spread rot-damage, ranged stun and run-speed might absolutely not compensate for no burst and squishiness), I am asking - do those who complain have reasons to complain or not? If not, please explain why.

Go ahead, you wanted to "address vague and in most cases completely untrue fears" of others - go ahead, address them.

The R-P-S argument is not generic nonsense. That is straight from Blizzards mouth. Not every class, or even class spec is balanced against each other. There have been and always will be classes than will, all things being equal, beat some and lose to others. This is by design. So to answer your question, no they do not have a reason to complain. If Blizzard wants to make Blood the PvP spec of choice and leaving Frost and Unholy not particularity viable then so be it for this iteration of WoW.

[rda]

The R-P-S argument is not generic nonsense. That is straight from Blizzards mouth. Not every class, or even class spec is balanced against each other. There have been and always will be classes than will, all things being equal, beat some and lose to others. This is by design. So to answer your question, no they do not have a reason to complain. If Blizzard wants to make Blood the PvP spec of choice and leaving Frost and Unholy not particularity viable then so be it for this iteration of WoW.

When I am asking a direct question and get R-P-S as an answer, that's generic nonsense.

Suppose unholy is P. Who's their R and who's their S? Same for frost. Please substantiate "they do not have a reason to complain".

- - - Updated - - -

Are you serious about them possibly wanting to make blood the PVP spec and leaving frost / unholy unviable? Do you PVP? Did you even see what blood PVP on Legion is like?

[SirBeef]

When I am asking a direct question and get R-P-S as an answer, that's generic nonsense.

Suppose unholy is P. Who's their R and who's their S? Same for frost. Please substantiate "they do not have a reason to complain".

- - - Updated - - -

Are you serious about them possibly wanting to make blood the PVP spec and leaving frost / unholy unviable? Do you PVP? Did you even see what blood PVP on Legion is like?

I don't play all the specs and all the classes regularly enough to know what is best to counter what. Blood was just and example I used.

[rda]

I don't play all the specs and all the classes regularly enough to know what is best to counter what. Blood was just and example I used.

So you don't have any answers and your "they do not have a reason to complain" was just noise. OK.

[Raiju]

Suppose unholy is P. Who's their R and who's their S? Same for frost. Please substantiate "they do not have a reason to complain".

Frost is one of the only specs that can truly lock down a demon hunter flag carrier, afaik.

[rda]

Frost is one of the only specs that can truly lock down a demon hunter flag carrier, afaik.

With what, death grip? How?

[Raiju]

With what, death grip? How?

That's a lot of details from a long time ago, but it was using the root version of chains of ice (5 second cooldown isn't a huge issue and covers what the DH will be able to do), the near permanent slowing ability and the like. You can add stuns on top of that but you will be able to keep up and keep htem below 100% total movement speed due to all the effects, as well as end a strong glide with grip.

It's plenty of time for someone from your team to support with the kill, even if it does reduce your damage significantly.

[George Costanza]

Thought it would be more finished before beta tbh .

[rda]

That's a lot of details from a long time ago, but it was using the root version of chains of ice (5 second cooldown isn't a huge issue and covers what the DH will be able to do), the near permanent slowing ability and the like. You can add stuns on top of that but you will be able to keep up and keep htem below 100% total movement speed due to all the effects, as well as end a strong glide with grip.

It's plenty of time for someone from your team to support with the kill, even if it does reduce your damage significantly.

Chains of Ice has DR so 5 seconds is immaterial. There are no stuns unless you do Remorseless Winter and take a talent (and then it's a long time until a stun and you have to be very close all the time). There's a daze, but that's also on DR, excludes the only stun, and requires being in melee. And if we are talking about teams, slows from Chains of Ice (the bread-and-butter slow) don't matter, because they are just getting dispelled.

Sum total, I'd like to see it. Maybe on some earlier build it was easier, but now...

(And we aren't even talking about a frost beating a DH, yet alone about having no reasons to complain.)

[Raiju]

Chains of Ice has DR so 5 seconds is immaterial. There are no stuns unless you do Remorseless Winter and take a talent (and then it's a long time until a stun and you have to be very close all the time). There's a daze, but that's also on DR, excludes the only stun, and requires being in melee. And if we are talking about teams, slows from Chains of Ice (the bread-and-butter slow) don't matter, because they are just getting dispelled.

Sum total, I'd like to see it. Maybe on some earlier build it was easier, but now...

(And we aren't even talking about a frost beating a DH, yet alone about having no reasons to complain.)

A team flag carry with a DH? No healer can keep up with a nonslowed DH or even close, so if they're sticking with a healer this is a nonissue to begin with.

The issue was DH's capping the flag in 20 seconds and being impossible to grasp. Frost DK's do that and require the group to help removing DH's inherent strength from the BG.

This is about as R > P > S as you can get in WoW, and yes I'm aware of the DR but last I was aware it's only 18 seconds and therefore lines up near ideally with teh cooldown anyway (which is a 4 > 2 > 1 snare anyway along wiht the fact you keep them slowed)

Remorseless stun applied after they've attempted their FR's post VR will pretty much guaranteed apply because they wontb e able to escape you. If you want, you can line this up with your grip (either 25 seconds after engagement if you gripped from the air to bring them down or whenever yo ufeel like if they took the ground route)

[rda]

A team flag carry with a DH? No healer can keep up with a nonslowed DH or even close, so if they're sticking with a healer this is a nonissue to begin with.

A healer meeting a DH with the flag two-thirds of the way and helping him get distance from the enemy. Standard practice for all FCs.

But anyway, I get what you are saying, I am not really buying it until I see it, but I am not going to object to it. It's not even R-P-S in the sense of who beats whom, even if it is true, it's just a small gimmick. Oh, great, a frost DK can slow a DH under such and such circumstances. Great, frost is balanced then. /sarcasm

I am saying that many specs on alpha *need* adjustments to be playable. That's a pretty bad shape, it's very far from the state where they are just untuned compared to each other numerically.

[Raiju]

It's not a standard X beats Y pvp format, and I doubt frost dk's will be an RBG include for it alone (as mentioned if you want to support your FC you need to leash the carrier at some point - if the DH is a glider gets gripped they're dead meat as DH's outside of meta are made of glass - and most are assuming soul rending will receive a pvp nerf too)

I agree that many adjustments still need to be made, though

[Wootmonkey]

his post says "Fire mages rolling ignites was top DPS by far on anything not immune/highly resistant to fire." So yeah MC doesn't count dude lol. Also stacking fire mages for big rolling ignites were a big thing in late vanilla.

I miss rolling ignites with my fellow mages in vanilla. Ah well.

But yes mages were boring as hell in PvE, but making fun of warlocks below you on the meters was fun. Until you went against a warlock in PvP and they melted your face.

[Evolved]

Admits that we are further along than previous alphas, doesn't admit that COMPARED TO PREVIOUS ALPHAS/BETAS (the entire discussion) we are equivalently in beta.

Good job.

Asks for evidence that we're still in Alpha, proceeds to ignore people giving the evidence proving how ridiculous he sounds trying to claim otherwise.

Good job.

[Baconeggcheese]

They just overhauled every spec in the game, as well as supposed plans to change how raid damage / mechanics go.

There's gonna be growing pains going straight through the xpac. I imagine everyone knew that when blizzard announced they're overhauling everything at the same time.

[rda]

They just overhauled every spec in the game, as well as supposed plans to change how raid damage / mechanics go.

That "just" is taking half a year just on our watch (and perhaps took another half a year before the alpha started).

That's for perspective.

[Raiju]

Asks for evidence that we're still in Alpha, proceeds to ignore people giving the evidence proving how ridiculous he sounds trying to claim otherwise.

Good job.

So now you're post stalking me because you dont like me? Well, I guess there's a first time for everything. Time to take my ignore lists virginity.

[Evolved]

So now you're post stalking me because you dont like me? Well, I guess there's a first time for everything. Time to take my ignore lists virginity.

Uh, general thread on the top of the list. Who are you again?

[ro9ue]

Yeah... I'm not even completely sure they read the feedback. There's a lot of common threads of feedback out there from the community, particularly for Warriors and Rogues, and they don't see to care.

Subtlety is a major disappointment as it is on the alpha. It's thematically and aesthetically better... but the mechanics are total garbage. Symbols of Death is the most phoned-in mechanic I've ever seen on a class. There is no viable AOE, same with Assassination for that matter. Also the skill cap for Sub is much lower now because of the pruning.

Assassination is near perfect on live and now they have some odd stuff. Garrote out of stealth? Just another DoT to manage... so fun! I've been giving feedback on Anticipation being baseline especially for Sub/Asn because of their baked-in CP gen mechanics like Seal Fate or the auto-generator for Sub. At least make the Anticipation UI better so there aren't 3 microscopic fucking dots that you can't even see.

I also want to bring up that I think when the new Blood DK goes live, a ton of people are gonna be pissed. They changed the whole feel of the spec for the worse. I can't believe they think having Death Strike tied to RP is good right now... Blood DK used to be able to heal themselves quite a bit but that's not the case anymore.

Warriors have no sustain in combat. There are some positive changes to Fury/Arms, but ultimately they just need to go back to 4.3 or 5.4 arms.

[Tharkkun]

No one is talking about damage tuning. But thanks for the bump I guess? ???

Tuning goes hand in hand. It changes how your abilities interact. If something is poorly tuned you might spam one ability instead of doing the rotation how Blizzard envisioned it to work. We all had like 20+ abilities in Vanilla and if you pressed them all your class would play clunky. Right now, in Alpha you'll press whatever nets the highest DPS and it probably is clunky. But once it's tuned things change.