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  1. #201


    Drop in oil price hit Russia hard.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  2. #202
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    For the same reason we think it's ok when NATO does it but bad when Russia does it. It's "the other one" doing it. :P

    I think both are stupid. I'm not supporting either side.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post


    Drop in oil price hit Russia hard.
    Judging from the last meetings, it's not any intention of the Saudi's to torpedo Russian economy. It's just that OPEC really can't agree on anything at the moment. No deeper strategy involved than that. Also the US is destroying the oil market these days since they started fracking.
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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJoe View Post
    I never said NATO didn't talk shit. I'm asking why you think it's ok when Russia does it, but it's bad when NATO does.
    I think it's bad when international politicians talk shite. Yet I dont let politicians talk affect my views on international relations. Not sure where I said it's ok. I said "it happens" and I wasnt expecting anything more from Russia.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJoe View Post
    I think both are stupid. I'm not supporting either side.
    Oh, I agree. I'd rather Russia and the US have their playground somewhere in SEA, but as far as Europe goes, if NATO wants to talk shit, I'm on their side any day of the week.
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  6. #206
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    I think it's bad when international politicians talk shite. Yet I dont let politicians talk affect my views on international relations. Not sure where I said it's ok. I said "it happens" and I wasnt expecting anything more from Russia.
    Well for one, you only condemn NATO for it. Shouldn't you condemn both sides?

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    "other areas of cooperation"?
    By the way it's not semantics. Theyre foreign. Allied isnt a synonym of Foreign.
    Yeah, other areas. Like offset contracts tied to arms purchases.
    Or did you think its all about hosting 500 US soldiers who will protect us from a russian invasion?
    As for semantics, it is a study of meaning, not a study of synonymes.

    Anyway, I think we've ventured quite far from your original point of "Poland is not sleeping easy" which sounds like an observation of someone who knows Poland from pieces of news he sees on TV 5000 miles away.

  8. #208
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Couple of corrections there. It wasn't the US that "set Europeans to the table", it was Europeans. Starting with Germany, France and the Benelux countries (and Winston Churchill :P). It wasn't to counteract Russia or the US. The US was paying for Europe's rebuilding process, why would we counteract them. They were saints. And Russia was pretty much counteracted by the US alone. No, the whole idea of a European Community was to prevent WW2 from happening again. That is the main basis for it. Instead of creating an atmosphere where nationalism could prosper again, they wanted to tie Germany and its western neighbours together so closely that a war started by either side would destroy both.

    See, for once they realised that it's not all just Germany, they remembered that before 1871/72 (which really began the intereuropean feud between France and Germany) France had conquered Germany, too. Twice. There was a lot of bad blood between the two countries and the people had to be forced to abandon all thoughts of revenge. Combining the most important industrial fields (steel and coal) was the logical first step. And none of it had any global "counterweight to US and USSR" in the plan.

    The strong Western Europe you're talking about? That's the thing the US secured with the foundation of NATO and later the acceptance of Germany in that treaty.

    What Djalil says about economy tying countries together, that is by and large accepted fact among politicians and economists. Whether or not Russia and the EU are tied closely enough to prevent war, nobody knows. I doubt they are. The EU doesn't need Russia half as much as Russia needs to export to the EU. See, the EU largely produces luxury goods these days. Cars, electronics, environmental technology, chemical shit. We can sell all of that to Asia or the US. While Russia only has raw resources to offer. And we can get that elsewhere, too.

    The last 25 years were not an anomaly. It was an expected result. The West German constitution had exactly this in mind when they made it the states goal to unite both parts. That was '56. They knew it was inevitable, historically. And the Americans figured pretty quickly that communism couldn't last long, too. why? Because in the history of mankind, NOBODY ever could repress people for long periods of time. Even in China, who built their culture all around repression, they had revolutions on a regular basis (so someone else could repress the masses).

    German Economy has exhausted itself? Have you looked at the numbers recently? 2 years in a row with a billion surplus... pensions are getting raised, I expect wages to finally follow suit to the economic boost that we've been pushing for quite a few years by now. Everyone else got huge hits during the financial crisis, we're one of the very few that came out of it like a champ. So much like a champ, that we're not basically feeding Greece and a million Syrians and still expect to make a surplus. How is that an exhausted economy?

    Italy is taing note of Greece and they are slowly trying to get their shit together. They have problems, but they are addressing them now that Berlusconi finally seems to be gone for good.

    I mean, you paint a picture that literally has
    nothing to do with reality. Why are you doing this? Is discrediting Djalil really worth that much to you? Don't you have proper arguments?
    -
    To begin at the beginning, European integration was an American idea. While Paul-Henri Spaak and Robert Schuman may have thought of the idea, it was the Marshall Plan that first had increased European integration as one of its goals. The Americans believed that their mission was to revive Europe and that the infusion of money wasn’t enough. Creating a harmonized economic structure was central to the recovery, so the United States pressed for some form of integration.

    France resisted integration at first because it was not prepared, so soon after the war, to collaborate with Germany. The British rejected the idea because they felt they had a special relationship with the United States given the wartime alliance, and didn’t want to be tossed in with the rest of Europe, particularly the French.

    It was Charles de Gaulle who finally embraced the idea, but not for economic reasons. His reasons were geopolitical. Europe was fragmented, the east was occupied by the Soviets and the Americans were an overwhelming presence. De Gaulle knew that Europe could not counterbalance the Americans or Soviets, but he believed that Europe could balance between them. Economic integration with Germany, along with smaller European states, would put France in the position of the leading European power, as Germany would play a subordinate role. Best of all, the British would not join this formation, which meant that France’s only rival in Western Europe would stay outside. He saw this as the path to resurrecting French influence. Out of this, over the course of decades, the EU emerged in the form of the Maastricht Treaty. Europeans and Americans both tend to forget the American role and the French calculation that got this rolling.

    All this happened prior to such clarifying events as the Berlin Blockade by the Soviets. This led to the American strategy of containment, and alongside that, the creation of NATO. American strategy was to hem in the Soviet Union from the North Cape of Norway to Turkey. The military containment was to be complemented by an increasingly productive and prosperous Europe. Psychologically, the contrast between a prosperous Western Europe and an impoverished Eastern Europe would weaken the Soviet position and strengthen the American. But more important, a prosperous Europe meant that it could support a European military component inside NATO. It was the American plan that the Europeans play the primary role in defending against a Soviet attack while the United States would provide some forces stationed there, massive reinforcements and, of course, a nuclear deterrent.

    For the United States, European prosperity was a critical factor behind the strength of NATO. This was the idea behind the Marshall Plan, and it is why the United States was always pleased to see European economic integration. But there was another reason – Germany. The United States, like the European powers, did not want to see Germany re-emerge as a major power. But it wanted Germany to be able to at least support itself, and ideally, field a substantial force against the Soviets. Germany would be the battlefield in any U.S.-Soviet conflict because of geography.

    The U.S. wanted a prosperous Germany, but one whose prosperity was tied up in a system of integration that took away German room to maneuver. The U.S. had fought two wars against Germany and while American casualties were far less than others in Europe, they still were deep in the American mind. So the United States wanted a strong but constrained Germany. The U.S. was prepared to see Europe recover enough to be a strong economic competitor to the United States, so long as the Soviets were blocked by German forces and Germany was constrained in a web of prosperity.

    Now, the integration that the United States put into motion is threatening to collapse, Germany is the dominant European power, but other EU countries are increasingly ignoring it, and Russia is active to the east. The structure the U.S. created after World War II is coming apart.
    -
    The last 25 years were not an anomaly.
    They absolutely were and the fact that majority of Europe still hasnt recovered from 2008 crisis proves that.

    As for German economy, just wait - it`ll derail soon enough. Sustaining such a dependance on exports is not possible. It`ll bite them back.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Helltrixz View Post
    It seemed pretty obvious to me that something like that could happen. UN and territorial integrity were made more and more irrelevant since 2003, while NATO expanded. Russia kept complaining and was ignored and at some point they had to draw a line. It makes sense IMO. The loser party in this are the Ukrainians, I don't know what they were expecting. I don't see the Russians doing any aggressive moves in Europe on their own for any foreseeable time.

    The middle-east is a lot more tricky and unpredictable though and Turkey is the most dangerous country without a doubt.
    That's what Chamberlain said when Hitler annexed Bohemia. "Peace in our time" eh? Guess what happened next, Hitler accused the western countries of "encircling" Germany. Sound familiar?

    Seriously, does any of you read history? There are so many parallels that should make us all think very hard about what's going on, yet you guys keep ignorign them and treat them as if they happened for the first time. "Ok, but this time it's different!"

    How? Are you sure in 100 years people will say "Oh yeah, it was different" or will they say "The signs were all there, it's so obvious how the power struggle shifted back to Europe until some idiot leader of a small fucked up nation made a dumb move and dragged everyone else down with him..."
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  10. #210
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    Yeah, other areas. Like offset contracts tied to arms purchases.
    Or did you think its all about hosting 500 US soldiers who will protect us from a russian invasion?
    As for semantics, it is a study of meaning, not a study of synonymes.

    Anyway, I think we've ventured quite far from your original point of "Poland is not sleeping easy" which sounds like an observation of someone who knows Poland from pieces of news he sees on TV 5000 miles away.
    Yes Im definitely unaware of your own political patterns. Afterall why would I want to know anything about that. http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...sk-plane-crash

    But I think I know what youre getting at.

  11. #211
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Helltrixz View Post
    I'm happy Austria isn't in NATO. We don't have to deal with this bollocks. ^^
    If Baltics were boxed in by mountains and other great powers - they would never have joined NATO either.

  12. #212
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Reetuk View Post
    -

    -


    They absolutely were and the fact that majority of Europe still hasnt recovered from 2008 crisis proves that.

    As for German economy, just wait - it`ll derail soon enough. Sustaining such a dependance on exports is not possible. It`ll bite them back.
    How does... not having recovered from the 2008 crisis proves that exactly? Your link doesnt work.
    Yeah... just wait, I guess. German economy will collapse and Europe goes back to warring each other. Ah god.

  13. #213
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Not sure who's talking about russia being THE FIRST trading partner. But thanks for the quote so you can see the kind of numbers we're talking about.
    Sure as hell I wasnt. But I posted it to show you the growing irrelevance of Russia to Europe and vice versa - wont be surprised if Brazil will soon overtake Russia as one of the main EU`s trading partner.
    Bad news for an idealist like you, I know.

  14. #214
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That's what Chamberlain said when Hitler annexed Bohemia. "Peace in our time" eh? Guess what happened next, Hitler accused the western countries of "encircling" Germany. Sound familiar?

    Seriously, does any of you read history? There are so many parallels that should make us all think very hard about what's going on, yet you guys keep ignorign them and treat them as if they happened for the first time. "Ok, but this time it's different!"

    How? Are you sure in 100 years people will say "Oh yeah, it was different" or will they say "The signs were all there, it's so obvious how the power struggle shifted back to Europe until some idiot leader of a small fucked up nation made a dumb move and dragged everyone else down with him..."
    There's one parallel thats missing though. Interconnected economies.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Reetuk View Post
    Sure as hell I wasnt. But I posted it to show you the growing irrelevance of Russia to Europe and vice versa - wont be surprised of Brazil will soon overtake Russia as EU`s main trading partner.
    Bad news for an idealist like you, I know.
    That has nothing to do with my point at all. Like... nothing whatsoever.
    Growing irrelevance? Still the main supplier of Gas and a trading partnership worthy hundreds of billions? Id say you take things a bit too much for granted.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Reetuk View Post
    -

    -


    They absolutely were and the fact that majority of Europe still hasnt recovered from 2008 crisis proves that.

    As for German economy, just wait - it`ll derail soon enough. Sustaining such a dependance on exports is not possible. It`ll bite them back.
    You're linking a source that doesn't exist. Perhaps you want to fix the URL?

    And the EU has largely recovered from the 2008 crisis. What's left are some problematic situations but... Portugal is on a good way. Spain is on a good way. Italy is getting to be on a good way. Ireland seems to be doing better. Iceland is doing okay. The UK is powering up these days. Germany is running full steam... France is not doing as well as Germany, but they are doing just fine.

    I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. It's like you think if only you repeat it enough, it'll become reality. It's not and it won't for the foreseeable time. Quite the opposite in fact. Greece is really the only problem these days, and we are in the process of fixing them. Once they're back on their feet (and by now I think nobody should have any doubt that they will), it'll set economical resources free that give the entire EU an enormous boost.

    And sorry.. that last sentence. I mean, really... Germany has been dependent on exporting since the fucking 50s. If you are waiting for them to derail now... you could be in for a long fucking wait. We've long, long ago switched our economy from a resource producing, to a manufacturing and now a service industry focus. Germany these days is producing mostly high tech that's in high demand all over the world. What this is meant to illustrate is that Germany isn't relying on tradition, we're able to adapt. So is the EU. You're doomsaying without any actual evidence. It's pathetic.

    I don't agree with Djalil, but if you cannot make a better case than you're doing now, you really shouldn't try to argue against him. Let people like Skroe handle it, he has a grasp of actual politics and economy.
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  16. #216
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    How does... not having recovered from the 2008 crisis proves that exactly? Your link doesnt work.
    Yeah... just wait, I guess. German economy will collapse and Europe goes back to warring each other. Ah god.

    This one should work.
    But why do I bother, you`ll never read anything that challenges your bias.
    Europe goes back to warring each other. Ah god
    And how I`m supposed to argue with you when all you do is shitpost fallacies? No wonder you`re a local laughing goat.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Helltrixz View Post
    I'm happy Austria isn't in NATO. We don't have to deal with this bollocks. ^^
    You'll come around. You just voted in a new gouvernment. Let's see what they are up to.
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  18. #218
    The Lightbringer Razael's Avatar
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    Its times like these i don't mind being in a backwater country nobody gives 2 shits about.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    There's one parallel thats missing though. Interconnected economies.
    The question is how much it would hurt to sever those connections. I think the EU has shown by now that they're willing to make a cut Russia really doesn't like. So far it's only a very tiny cut, but ultimately... who's gonna hurt more if you cut trade completely, Russia or the EU? And right now, I'm inclined to say Russia would be devastated much harder than Europe would. We'd just start shipping more to Asia and the US, perhaps start trading seriously with Australia. See, that's Russia's problem. They're making enemies with everyone these days. Who are they going to sell their stuff at if it's not Europe? Kirgisistan?
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  20. #220
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Reetuk View Post

    This one should work.
    But why do I bother, you`ll never read anything that challenges your bias.

    And how I`m supposed to argue with you when all you do is shitpost fallacies? No wonder you`re a local laughing goat.
    This is the link you wanted to post?
    Seriously?
    As the findings of this comparative study substantiate them, there exist currently significant signs of resentment between citizens of the EU’s northern and southern Member States.
    ???

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razael View Post
    Its times like these i don't mind being in a backwater country nobody gives 2 shits about.
    I swear to god the best thing Ive ever done is moving to such a place

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