Pathfinder achievement looking pretty steep to unlock a core ability

[glowpipe]

No worries. In a few months you can buy a Pathfinder-gps-Fly-O-Matic in blizzard store. For only 99.99. It will unlock flying.

[rhorle]

Like the poster above said, there are better ways to solve these kinds of issues than simply nuking flight entirely. It just takes a smidgen more creativity and effort. And really, that Blizzard can't, or won't, muster the time to find such answers is the real shame here.

But that isn't entirely why flying is on hiatus. There is only so much you can do for outdoor objectives to limit flying interaction. There are also only so many ways to do it before it becomes boring and the same annoying stuff. Look at how easy it is to level from 90 to 100. With the proper setup flying allows you to go from 95 to 100 in mins.

Its not that blizzard can't or won't take the time to find such answers. It is about the worth of doing so. It is all about making flying a required part of content by incorporating it into design or leaving it as a travel convenience. And if you design mechanics to make flying have very few uses because most locations are "quest" or "flying pro-hibitied" then why not just put the design resources into X and limit flying until Y time? Same basic result.

[huth]

Make the quest so when you mount up, the disguise drops and seed the area around the quest objective with ranged enemies.

Like the poster above said, there are better ways to solve these kinds of issues than simply nuking flight entirely. It just takes a smidgen more creativity and effort. And really, that Blizzard can't, or won't, muster the time to find such answers is the real shame here.

So what happens to the flightless players that accidentally lose their disguise? Before, they still had a chance of running away and putting it back on. With your changes, they will invariably die. Not to mention that it would just lead enterprising players to find new ways of circumventing the mechanic. If you don't want people to fly in a certain area, the only reliable way is making it a no-fly area. Which is exactly what they did. Millions of players will always be more creative than a hundred devs.

[In Ogres We Trust]

When you boost to 100 you are skipping 100 levels of ground content.

The boosts are designed to aid new players, returning players, and bored players to the start of the current expansion. No flying until the end of the expansion is designed around the premise that the genre is better off when you can... I don't know... interact with the world and the community. To be frank, the game is better off without flying, but the Pathfinder requirements are a nice compromise.

- - - Updated - - -

slow travel is just a gate. when you develop less content you need to find ways to slow consumption.

wod had no flight and it was the emptiest version of the game to date.

That's because they stopped developing the expansion shortly after launch, and they dropped the ball by not adding Farahlon as well as a third tier.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone who complains about the lack of flying in an expansion that hasn't even released yet, or complains about the steps required to unlock flying, you are 100% everything that is wrong with the community today, and 100% to blame for the game being in the state it is now.

The expansion's not even out yet, and the only thing you guys can think about is how soon you'll be able to conveniently zip and fly over all the of continent.

You're probably the same people who bitched and moaned about the flightpaths in WoD being too long, until Blizzard bent over backwards to create several-dozen new, unnecessary paths so that you wouldn't have to wait longer than 30 seconds to reach your destination.

Seeing threads like this makes me sick, and I am not surprised at the vocal outcry for Legacy servers. Your demands for more and more convenience in a game that already spoon-feeds and hand-holds has me questioning whether you actually care about the game, or if its just something you want to get out of the way as quickly as possible so that you can get on with the rest of your day.

It's the direct result of WoW's success, i.e. the attraction of the non MMORPG players.

[SirCowdog]

So what happens to the flightless players that accidentally lose their disguise? Before, they still had a chance of running away and putting it back on. With your changes, they will invariably die. Not to mention that it would just lead enterprising players to find new ways of circumventing the mechanic. If you don't want people to fly in a certain area, the only reliable way is making it a no-fly area. Which is exactly what they did. Millions of players will always be more creative than a hundred devs.

That doesn't even make any sense. Just program it so the disguise doesn't randomly fall off while you're on the ground. Stop trying so hard to nuke flight and your mind opens up to ideas that you hadn't considered before.

[PragmaticGamer]

It's the direct result of WoW's success, i.e. the attraction of the non MMORPG players.

Or rather, it's the empowerment of the "do it MY way" crowd.

You see, the MMORPG has one letter that keeps getting ignored. The "G." It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. We're supposed to enjoy spending time online.

But then along comes someone who says "no, no, you can't be having fun doing THAT--I don't enjoy doing that, so you can't possibly enjoy it, either." And they happily support efforts to kill off parts of the game that they don't enjoy (e.g., "LFR players are getting raid gear? why should they? sure, it's significantly weaker than the gear I get, but it has the same cosmetic appearance, so we must destroy LFR raid gear").

[SirCowdog]

But that isn't entirely why flying is on hiatus. There is only so much you can do for outdoor objectives to limit flying interaction. There are also only so many ways to do it before it becomes boring and the same annoying stuff. Look at how easy it is to level from 90 to 100. With the proper setup flying allows you to go from 95 to 100 in mins.

Its not that blizzard can't or won't take the time to find such answers. It is about the worth of doing so. It is all about making flying a required part of content by incorporating it into design or leaving it as a travel convenience. And if you design mechanics to make flying have very few uses because most locations are "quest" or "flying pro-hibitied" then why not just put the design resources into X and limit flying until Y time? Same basic result.

Because there's enough players who want flying to make it 'worth' it. Otherwise Blizzard is just using flight as a carrot to force people to consume every ounce of content and do it at a slower rate. Not to mention that it also suggests that the ground content isn't strong enough to stand on its own merit, and has to have some reward like flight in order to keep people working at it.

The entire idea of using flight as a travel convenience is bunk, anyway. By the time you unlock flight, you've already done virtually everything that you might have wanted to travel to besides a raid entrance, which can be reached with aviana's feather. Which, btw, is not a mark against flight, but rather against WoDs complete and utter lack of end-game content in the open world.

Maybe Legion will have more end-game content by the time flight is unlocked. We'll see.

[PragmaticGamer]

Maybe Legion will have more end-game content by the time flight is unlocked. We'll see.

Heck, I most wanted to use flight to do archaeology. Running erratically around a dig site, aggroing mobs every few seconds, all so you can get a find of 6 fragments?

There's a reason I did most of my archaeology from my garrison mine's ore carts.

[Doomaz]

i dont consider flying a core ability, shame others do

im fine with flying and without it

[montana]

i love the way you unlock flying. should be like this from now on. its not needed to play so if you want is nice to put an effort on it

[PragmaticGamer]

i love the way you unlock flying. should be like this from now on. its not needed to play so if you want is nice to put an effort on it

I think similar meta-achievements should be put on other non-vital parts of the game.

For instance, to get into challenge-mode or mythic group content, you should have to get Pathfinder, as well. Pathfinder ensures that you get all the lore of the expansion, and to bypass that lore means you're not immersed in the game, but are instead just queuing up for raids.

Raiders could still play normal and heroic-mode group content, so it wouldn't gate any content, just the higher difficulty levels. As mentioned, it'd improve their enjoyment of the game, because they'd then have an incentive to experience every nugget of content.

Anyway, it would practically be no gate at all. By the time the mythic level of the raids are released, the raiders could have gotten all of the first part of the meta done (AND have another source of gear to take into the raids).

[rhorle]

Because there's enough players who want flying to make it 'worth' it. Otherwise Blizzard is just using flight as a carrot to force people to consume every ounce of content and do it at a slower rate. Not to mention that it also suggests that the ground content isn't strong enough to stand on its own merit, and has to have some reward like flight in order to keep people working at it.

That is a lot of assumptions. Are there enough players that want development time spent on every outside content to make it flight proof or to examine if it should be flight proof? Are there enough players that then want development time spent to create varied ways of flight proof so it just the same one or two mechanics used over and over again? You are one person claiming that it is worth it. Every ounce of content doesn't have to be consumed for the carrot to be obtained though and nothing is being forced on players except for a few achievements that most complete part of over the course of natural play.

It doesn't suggest that ground content can't stand on its own merit because that ground content would still exist as is even if they decided to never add the ability to fly in Legion.

The entire idea of using flight as a travel convenience is bunk, anyway. By the time you unlock flight, you've already done virtually everything that you might have wanted to travel to besides a raid entrance, which can be reached with aviana's feather. Which, btw, is not a mark against flight, but rather against WoDs complete and utter lack of end-game content in the open world.

Then the lack of flying is a non-issue. Because its convenience isn't even missed. You can't have it both ways. Either flying is something worth while for the game that it should have unique mechanics to deal with it or it isn't even a convenience and has no point in the game.

[SirCowdog]

That is a lot of assumptions. Are there enough players that want development time spent on every outside content to make it flight proof or to examine if it should be flight proof?

I've been in the flight discussion since WoD beta. These aren't even assumptions anymore. It's pretty clear that's exactly what's going on. Blizzard announced their plans to go forward with no flying ever again. TWO WEEKS LATER they reverse that decision after massive backlash from the community, and flight is put back in WoD for 6.2.x. That would suggest that there ARE enough players to make it worthwhile.

It doesn't suggest that ground content can't stand on its own merit because that ground content would still exist as is even if they decided to never add the ability to fly in Legion.

If ground content can stand on it's own, then why does it matter if flying is given to players or not? If ground content is good enough, flying players WILL interact with it. If ground content can stand on it's own, why isn't there a decision between ground or air mounts? If ground content can stand on it's own(LIKE IT DID FOR EIGHT YEARS) then why is Blizzard attempting to force people into it instead of letting them choose to?

Oh, that's right. My bad. I forgot. Blizzard's artistic vision is more valuable than allowing players to decide for themselves what's enjoyable.

Then the lack of flying is a non-issue. Because its convenience isn't even missed. You can't have it both ways. Either flying is something worth while for the game that it should have unique mechanics to deal with it or it isn't even a convenience and has no point in the game.

Don't be dense or disingenuous. Clearly flying is missed by a LOT of people. Enough that Blizzard reversed their decision and put it back in WoD. It's like chopping off your entire hand because one of your fingers has a papercut. Congrats! You'll never have problems with that finger again! What a GREAT solution! That finger was just a convenience anyway, it's not necessary. After all, you've got another hand to work with, so having two of them didn't have any point anyway.

[Ryzek]

I don't see it as steep, I'm going to do that stuff anyway and I don't think of flying as a core ability either.

[rhorle]

I've been in the flight discussion since WoD beta. These aren't even assumptions anymore. It's pretty clear that's exactly what's going on. Blizzard announced their plans to go forward with no flying ever again. TWO WEEKS LATER they reverse that decision after massive backlash from the community, and flight is put back in WoD for 6.2.x. That would suggest that there ARE enough players to make it worthwhile.

There is a difference between backlash from removing and devoting resources to create an entire "no-fly" zone mechanics for all of the world content. You either have no grasp of game design or are glossying over the amount of work needed for such a thing just because it doesn't aid your view.

If ground content can stand on it's own, then why does it matter if flying is given to players or not? If ground content is good enough, flying players WILL interact with it.

Now who is being dense? Players choose not to interact with ground content when they don't have to regardless of how much merit it has. You have yet to provide any sort of content that would have merit that a player would choose to interact with ground content. Your suggestion on how to do it "properly" is still forcing people to not use their mounts because of ranged targets or disguises dropping.

Oh, that's right. My bad. I forgot. Blizzard's artistic vision is more valuable than allowing players to decide for themselves what's enjoyable.

I find getting free mythic raid gear for every slot mailed to me enjoyable. Using your logic Blizzard needs to do that otherwise it is bad game design for not letting me decide what I find enjoyable. Instead I am forced to run Mythic Raids in order to do what I find enjoyable. If mythic raiding can't stand on its own merits then clearly they need to mail out its loot. And if "enough" feel that way then it has to happen right?

Don't be dense or disingenuous. Clearly flying is missed by a LOT of people. Enough that Blizzard reversed their decision and put it back in WoD. It's like chopping off your entire hand because one of your fingers has a papercut. Congrats! You'll never have problems with that finger again! What a GREAT solution! That finger was just a convenience anyway, it's not necessary. After all, you've got another hand to work with, so having two of them didn't have any point anyway.

But if flying as convenience is bunk because you've done everything without flying then there is no reason for flying to exist right? What is its reason for existing if it isn't about the convenience for traveling from point A to B. If it can't stand on its own merits, of convenience, then it should exist. But I am sure I will be the one called dense for using your own arguments against you. Right?

[callipygoustp]

F**k WoW. How dare blizzard force me to play the game. So done with this company.

[SirCowdog]

There is a difference between backlash from removing and devoting resources to create an entire "no-fly" zone mechanics for all of the world content. You either have no grasp of game design or are glossying over the amount of work needed for such a thing just because it doesn't aid your view.

Firstly: It doesn't need to be a no-fly mechanic that blankets entire zones. It only need to be used selectively for certain quests or areas where Blizzard really wants to express something special(artistic design or whatever you want to call it).

Secondly: These types of mechanics already exist. Every time you enter a building, enemies which harpoon and drag a player, anti-air cannons, daze and dismount from being struck by a monster. It would not be at all difficult for a team as experienced and well-funded as Blizzard to get creative with these mechanics, or improve upon them.

Now who is being dense? Players choose not to interact with ground content when they don't have to regardless of how much merit it has.

Oh, so now you speak for every player everywhere? What about the road less traveled? What about deciding to enjoy the game in the way a player chooses to, isntead of the limited, singular way that Blizzard is trying so hard to force?

You have yet to provide any sort of content that would have merit that a player would choose to interact with ground content. Your suggestion on how to do it "properly" is still forcing people to not use their mounts because of ranged targets or disguises dropping.

No, I merly offered to expand on the example someone ELSE offered, to point how a quest could be designed to ALLOW for different approaches. I didn't say it was the only way, or that it was proper. Only that it was better than removing flight everywhere just so quests don't have to be designed with variety.

I find getting free mythic raid gear for every slot mailed to me enjoyable.

Oh, this argument again. Just another version of "People who want flight are lazy and don't want to do content." It just goes back to my earlier point: If the content is good enough, or interesting enough, then players will play and interact with it regardless of what type of mount they're using.

Using your logic

No...sorry. That's you twisting my words to suit your arugment.

Blizzard needs to do that otherwise it is bad game design for not letting me decide what I find enjoyable. Instead I am forced to run Mythic Raids in order to do what I find enjoyable. If mythic raiding can't stand on its own merits then clearly they need to mail out its loot. And if "enough" feel that way then it has to happen right?

To be perfectly blunt, the garrison has missions which LITERALLY mail you raid gear. So that style of gameplay DOES exist.

And doesn't raiding provide several different difficulties, from the facerolling easy LFR, all the way up to the significant challenge of Mythic? Players are given options of which they want to do, and each stage gives gear which allows them to continue to progress, further challenging themselves. Getting the loot is only part of the reward, overcoming the challenge is the other. Should I start linking youtube videos of entire raids cheering and celebrating to show how accurate that is? They cheer when they down a boss, and they also cheer when they get loot. BOTH have merit, and suggesting that loot is the ONLY reason to raid is disingenuous.

The point being that Mythic raiding DOES stand on itss own merits, unlike most of the outdoor end-game content we saw in WoD. To contrast, LFR doesn't stand on its own merit, which is blatantly obvious by people AFKing, slacking, and facerolling through it with little to no thought. There are even options in-between, with normal and heroic.

To use the analogy: If flying is the loot you get at the end of a raid, then the current ground design is LFR. Maybe if the ground design was Normal or Heroic, and Mythic was available to fly to once it was unlocked, we probably wouldn't be having this argument.

But if flying as convenience is bunk because you've done everything without flying then there is no reason for flying to exist right? What is its reason for existing if it isn't about the convenience for traveling from point A to B. If it can't stand on its own merits, of convenience, then it should exist. But I am sure I will be the one called dense for using your own arguments against you. Right?

I didn't call you dense, I asked you not to be dense or disingenuous. Using circular logic to make a point is exactly that, and doesn't contribute to the discussion at all. As for its reason for existing, as I've tried to make clear a number of times across many threads and posts: I would like flight to actually have content designed for it. I would like the game to USE flight instead of ignore it, or relegate it only to a convenience.

As for standing on its own merits, it did that for 8 years before the trainwreck of WoD came along. It wasn't a problem until Blizzard created one from whole cloth.

[Daffan]

When you hit level 110 they should give you flying and a full set of raid gear.

next evolution of catchup mechanics.

[Frolk]

When you hit level 110 they should give you flying and a full set of raid gear.

next evolution of catchup mechanics.

And dont forget rare mounts, so ppl dont feel left out

Oh, and some cool titles

[Deleted]

WoD largely was the first expansion to not have flying and it is also the emptiest of all expansions. your argument is not valid.

^ pro fliers people. just because WoD was a shit expansion doesnt mean you can void my point lmao