1. #4981
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    They re-designed all of Azeroth for flying.

    If flying was a mistake they would have never done that.
    SNIP....
    Very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart Maiden View Post
    SNIp..
    Granted, those are your opinions and not actual facts. Do you have any actual facts on the matter? I mean, you speak as if you feel like you could code the thing yourself. However, from what I understand, I would be willing to bet that I know more about coding than you do considering that I understand the level of work that would need to be invested into it as well as its value. The simple thing is, that if it isn't on the table for them, then they have other plans, and that is that. The question is, why do you think that it's something that is not only easy but relevant to what they want to do?
    Thats quite poissibly the dumbest thing I have seen as far as a response to a forum post in a long time. Well done.

    Fact are we have had flying and it didn't hurt the game in any measurable way. (However, it is possible to say no flying has hurt wow)
    Facts are gamers seem to love flying at max level. blizzard didn't turn the train around because of some small number of disagreement postings.
    Facts are, we have had content designed around flying. blizzard isn't a novice at it. They can do it buy simply chooses not to. My OPINION is because big business has moved into game design and "F"ed thigns up causing them to be a bit lazy and cut corners.

    There are plenty of facts in what I say. I'm just not sure you are capable of grasping them. As far as what blizzard has planned. I've played that plan in Mop and WoD when it comes to no flying. I'm not a fan so I don't give a rats ass anymore what blizzard wants to do when it comes to pushing out flying at max level.

    but to you last question. Given blizzard has implemented similar content with flying and mobs that hinder flying at max level. They can do it again. It makes for a more interesting game that my dragon can fly. My mimron's head can fly. My gyrocopter can fly. Ground only or with some toy is a cop out to what we have had and enjoyed no matter what blizzard claims to have planned. Hell, at this point I'd say no flying goes so much against what wow had build up, it no wonder gamers had a problem with blizzards "plan" for no flying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    This is WoW, not a flight simulator. SNIP.....
    Nor is it My little pony's equestrian simulator. What I do know is my flying mounts should fly and in relevant content. Not just the old Crap.

    We'll get flying sooner than you think but it will still be a mockery to those that like flying because I have no doubt blizzard is pissed the tables got turned on them in a negative way when it comes to flying. Gamers just didn't take to it like they wanted.

  2. #4982
    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    but to you last question. Given blizzard has implemented similar content with flying and mobs that hinder flying at max level. They can do it again. It makes for a more interesting game that my dragon can fly.
    Youre talking about the mobs you just fly over right?
    how high do they go up the Yaxis to make this a "challenge" to avoid. You would be talking literally every 5-10 yards up needed the entire ground desnity to avoid just skipping over mobs. what engaging content comes from that? Wow doesnt have flight based combat. Maybe we need to be able to cast while mounted? dont think so.
    With epic flight, you literally just flew past the cannons in ogrila that were there to dismount you. How fast do they make the projectiles, to account for those with epic and non epic flight. Do the mobs shoot different bullets at different players?

    Whilst i can be sympathetic with people who want flying content (although i disagree wow needs it), people who just want come around with I WANT I WANT I WANT, I HAD IT GIVE IT BACK style arguments are just ridiculous.
    Last edited by wing5wong; 2016-05-01 at 01:03 AM.

  3. #4983
    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    Youre talking about the mobs you just fly over right?
    I remember, in Zangarmarsh in Outland, the Alliance quest hub had gryphon-riding wizards who attacked when I got too close.

    Personally, though, I think the simplest solution is to make it so that players can't skip the essential danger of a quest. As others have mentioned, adding things like "and to summon the demon general, you have to kill 20 of his guards" (or just "kill the demon general and 20 of his guards") means it doesn't matter if you ground-pounded past the don't-really-matter mobs to get to the quest area, or flew in and landed, you still have to face the same threats to accomplish the quest. The only difference is, you don't have to deal with the REALLY DON'T MATTER mobs in between.

    And by the time you get flying, you should (a) be max level, (b) have completed the main objectives of the questing zones (i.e., Loremaster), and (c) visited the major sites in the questing zones (i.e., Explorer). (All the other parts of Pathfinder are just B.S. padding...)

  4. #4984
    I think it should be pretty clear by now that Blizzard COULD do better than pathfinder. The question of why they aren't is up for debate, of course. Some think it's because flying hurts their vision for the game. Others think it's for purely economical reasons.

    I'd like to point out that Blizzard is once again giving an Aviana's Feather type item in Legion. What this means is that they're providing a way to "skip content" once every 10 minutes rather than being at-will with a normal flying mount. Theoretically, if a player was patient enough, they could still "skip" all the same content that a flying mount would allow them to. Basically all that does is make it more tedious to fly than to use a ground mount.

    I think that should be taken into account when we're discussing the issue of why Blizzard is doing what they're doing with flight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticGamer View Post

    And by the time you get flying, you should (a) be max level, (b) have completed the main objectives of the questing zones (i.e., Loremaster), and (c) visited the major sites in the questing zones (i.e., Explorer). (All the other parts of Pathfinder are just B.S. padding...)
    But then the question remains: What's left to use flying on?

    Personally I think that people are being far too binary in their thinking about flight. The all or nothing approach isn't really that good when you get down to it. A more flexible, diverse solution would be better.

  5. #4985
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    But then the question remains: What's left to use flying on?

    Personally I think that people are being far too binary in their thinking about flight. The all or nothing approach isn't really that good when you get down to it. A more flexible, diverse solution would be better.
    Pathfinder has six requirements (so far). My list has two.

    But I actually prefer a two-option selection.

    Either (a) complete Pathfinder (the truncated version I suggested, preferably; maybe the expanded version that Blizzard is enforcing) and get flying on ALL your alts, or (b) pay a fee and get flying on THAT alt.

  6. #4986
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I think it should be pretty clear by now that Blizzard COULD do better than pathfinder. The question of why they aren't is up for debate, of course. Some think it's because flying hurts their vision for the game. Others think it's for purely economical reasons.

    I'd like to point out that Blizzard is once again giving an Aviana's Feather type item in Legion. What this means is that they're providing a way to "skip content" once every 10 minutes rather than being at-will with a normal flying mount. Theoretically, if a player was patient enough, they could still "skip" all the same content that a flying mount would allow them to. Basically all that does is make it more tedious to fly than to use a ground mount.

    I think that should be taken into account when we're discussing the issue of why Blizzard is doing what they're doing with flight.
    The usual situation where people can "skip content" is a group of mobs you would like to kill and another group of mobs that pose some sort of obstacle. Without a flying mount a player has to decide whether to engage and kill the mobs, attempt to avoid aggro or just charge on through. The decision has to take into account factors like the terrain (can I avoid the mobs, how far out of the way must I go, if I pull aggro can I drop it before reaching my target?) and the enemies being faced (can they kill me if I accidentally pull a lot, is it quicker to kill them than take a circuitous route?) The response will differ depending on the class; rogues and hunters have aggro-drops and can afford to be reckless. Tanks (and possibly healers) can take risks with the confidence of being able to survive the consequences. Squishier classes might choose to use their higher damage to fight through or go a roundabout way to avoid contact.

    With a flying mount the best (or at least most efficient) option is always to mount up and fly to the target. This applies if the mob is totally exposed but would take more than a few seconds to run to.

    Avianna's feather is not a powerful tool in comparison. It's biggest disadvantage is the height it propels you to, the amount of time it takes to slowly descend back to the ground could be better spent just finishing the objective and moving on to the next. There's also the forward momentum that makes precision landing tricky unless there's a handy wall to plant your face against. Finally the 10 minute cooldown prohibits its use as a "go to" ability, mostly I'd save it for when I wanted to leave an area if the hearthstone was on cooldown or set to an inconvenient place.

  7. #4987
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The usual situation where people can "skip content" is a group of mobs you would like to kill and another group of mobs that pose some sort of obstacle. Without a flying mount a player has to decide whether to engage and kill the mobs, attempt to avoid aggro or just charge on through. The decision has to take into account factors like the terrain (can I avoid the mobs, how far out of the way must I go, if I pull aggro can I drop it before reaching my target?) and the enemies being faced (can they kill me if I accidentally pull a lot, is it quicker to kill them than take a circuitous route?) The response will differ depending on the class; rogues and hunters have aggro-drops and can afford to be reckless. Tanks (and possibly healers) can take risks with the confidence of being able to survive the consequences. Squishier classes might choose to use their higher damage to fight through or go a roundabout way to avoid contact.

    With a flying mount the best (or at least most efficient) option is always to mount up and fly to the target. This applies if the mob is totally exposed but would take more than a few seconds to run to.
    Then, as has been suggested several times before: Why not put obstacles or threats in the air to make the decision a real one? Whether it's by putting the objective inside a cave or building, or using anti-air cannons, harpooners to drag a flier to the ground, or flying enemies such as kaliri birds. Doesn't that create a similar obstacle, no more or less annoying than the trash mobs between you and your target? Throw in some terrain, such as floating rocks, obelisks, stalagmites, falling lava, whatever, to complete to similarity.

    The end result is going to be pretty close to the same decisions that a grounded player has to make: Do I try to skirt around the obstacles, or just fight my way through? If a player doesn't want to deal with the obstacles, whether they're grounded or not, they're going to try and find a clever way to avoid it. Would diversifying in this way REALLY be so destructive to Blizzard's presentation of the content?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Avianna's feather is not a powerful tool in comparison. It's biggest disadvantage is the height it propels you to, the amount of time it takes to slowly descend back to the ground could be better spent just finishing the objective and moving on to the next. There's also the forward momentum that makes precision landing tricky unless there's a handy wall to plant your face against. Finally the 10 minute cooldown prohibits its use as a "go to" ability, mostly I'd save it for when I wanted to leave an area if the hearthstone was on cooldown or set to an inconvenient place.
    Exactly what I said: It just makes flying more tedious than being on the ground. It doesn't actually stop you from using it to circumvent whatever the intended approach was. Landing is also not that tricky after only a little bit of practice. Just manually shift-click the buff off, and use whatever slow fall, leap, blink, or engineer toy to avoid the damage.

    Seems pretty clear that Blizzard is ok with the occasional skipping of content. It's just that they don't want players to "Helicopter" between objectives. Couldn't the helicopter effect be prevented in other ways? Not just by adding credible threats and obstacles for a flying player, but maybe also by changing the way in which flying itself works? I know people have suggested starting flight very slow, and upgrading it the more of the content you do(such as how pathfinder part 1 in Legion does for ground mounts). But what about starting flight out as something like a simple Leap effect, then moving onto a Feather effect, and upgrading all the way to full fledged, unlimited flight by fully completing a multi-patch pathfinder achievement.

    As always, keep in mind that my preference is for a mix of all of these things. It's not about trying to make it more convenient to skip content, but to try and integrate flight in such a way that both ground and air become an engaging part of the game.

    Sorry if I'm phrasing all of this as a question. I'm trying pretty hard to keep it a civil discussion, and avoid getting too aggro with it.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2016-05-01 at 03:23 AM.

  8. #4988
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    No. I paid 5000g for epic flight speed. Why should I not have it? Why do some of you keep trying to limit flight like this? People here keep proposing silly compromises for weird reasons when the solution is obvious:

    Give me the flight I've already worked for as I used it for most of the life of the game. Quit fucking around as if not letting me fly is some key aspect of the game. Spend all this time and attention elsewhere, especially if you're not going to design compelling content around regain the ability to fly.

    Or, jerk me around, artificially limit me for no reason other than 'the team likes it' and you won't get my money.
    That's how I view it as well!!!! Now I'm not against dangerous flight in certain pockets I.e. skettis, but to make it dangerous for flight in general is re-re. One thing is for sure there is no compromise on my money.

  9. #4989
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Then, as has been suggested several times before: Why not put obstacles or threats in the air to make the decision a real one? Whether it's by putting the objective inside a cave or building, or using anti-air cannons, harpooners to drag a flier to the ground, or flying enemies such as kaliri birds. Doesn't that create a similar obstacle, no more or less annoying than the trash mobs between you and your target? Throw in some terrain, such as floating rocks, obelisks, stalagmites, falling lava, whatever, to complete to similarity.

    The end result is going to be pretty close to the same decisions that a grounded player has to make: Do I try to skirt around the obstacles, or just fight my way through? If a player doesn't want to deal with the obstacles, whether they're grounded or not, they're going to try and find a clever way to avoid it. Would diversifying in this way REALLY be so destructive to Blizzard's presentation of the content?

    Outside of some questing areas, no. Just stop with the "well, we could alter flight THIS way" stuff. Yes, in Skettis, over enemy camps in TBC Nagrand, etc it was useful and involving. But most areas never had any of this and there's no reason to add it. Look, if I want to travel from one side of a zone to another and I want to fly myself why should I have to put up with bullshit to do that? It's especially galling when I can usually also just hop on a taxi which in EVERY WAY is worse that my own flying mount and get there. Fuck, I can tab out and walk away if I take a taxi.


    People keep proposing limits on flying without ever really considering that there were no limits on it from its introduction in TBC through MoP and the game was fine. For much of that time, we had *double* the subs we do now... so.... uh...

  10. #4990
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Outside of some questing areas, no. Just stop with the "well, we could alter flight THIS way" stuff. Yes, in Skettis, over enemy camps in TBC Nagrand, etc it was useful and involving. But most areas never had any of this and there's no reason to add it. Look, if I want to travel from one side of a zone to another and I want to fly myself why should I have to put up with bullshit to do that? It's especially galling when I can usually also just hop on a taxi which in EVERY WAY is worse that my own flying mount and get there. Fuck, I can tab out and walk away if I take a taxi.


    People keep proposing limits on flying without ever really considering that there were no limits on it from its introduction in TBC through MoP and the game was fine. For much of that time, we had *double* the subs we do now... so.... uh...
    I'm just throwing out ideas here. Like I said, this stuff doesn't have to blanket every inch of every zone. Don't forget the point is to make it interesting and engaging, NOT tedious.

    I'm actually ok with there being a separation between flight paths, portals, and whatnot, to get people long distances across the maps, and personal player flight in a different form for short range travel or combat.

  11. #4991
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Outside of some questing areas, no. Just stop with the "well, we could alter flight THIS way" stuff. Yes, in Skettis, over enemy camps in TBC Nagrand, etc it was useful and involving. But most areas never had any of this and there's no reason to add it. Look, if I want to travel from one side of a zone to another and I want to fly myself why should I have to put up with bullshit to do that? It's especially galling when I can usually also just hop on a taxi which in EVERY WAY is worse that my own flying mount and get there. Fuck, I can tab out and walk away if I take a taxi.


    People keep proposing limits on flying without ever really considering that there were no limits on it from its introduction in TBC through MoP and the game was fine. For much of that time, we had *double* the subs we do now... so.... uh...
    You should put up with it because you aren't designing the game, Blizzard is. You've said your piece and it's never changed, "give me flying or else!" If you don't want to play because of it, don't. The limits and compromises people are suggesting is ways for Blizz to implement it sooner. You keep bringing up past xpacs, but per history, it was needed in all those xpacs, it's not now, so if Blizz wants to take it out that's their decision and their right, whether you choose to keep playing or not is on you. If people choose to quit over it, it's on them. Is flight a convenience in WoD and so far in Legion? Yes, is it necessary for either? No.

  12. #4992
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    #noflynosub

    but more seriously blizzard is once again shooting themsleves in foot so hard - there hasnt been even a single blizzard game that would get as much bad rep and revieves so many months before its launch so far

    they barely mamanged to dodge whole vanilla/legacy servers shitstorm and now they let another one hit so hard and we arent even in beta :/

    legion seems the be following into realy dire direction atm such a shame :/

    and blizzard pulls of stunts like this even if they knew so many people would be careful with buyin legion after fiasco that WoD was such a shame :/

    i guess incompetent devs are incompetent blizzar shoudl jsut fire 3/4 of the dev squad as they seem to be unable to produce quality product like Wolk

    - - - Updated - - -



    are you surpsised though ? people know already atm that they will have to deal with :
    a)stupid server ques for first few weeks
    b) no lfr open till few months into expansion
    c)no flyin till god knows when
    d)huge balancing issues as blizzard will have to do beta in under 4 months copared to wods beta that last 6 months and stil lwas tuned badly as fuck.

    IF you are a causal player not mythic raider/hard pvper there is literaly 0 reason to buy legion on launch if it doesnt offer basic core content liek flying or lfr.
    1) Yes we will probably have expansion start server queues, but they did upgrade the server hardware to increase amout of logins possible, not to mention that everyone and their mother wont be guided into 1 area at start like wod did, ppl will split off to do their respective artifact quests then into any zone (except suramar) of their choosing to level
    2) a few months? HM N/H was released just shy of 2 weeks of release, with LFR being released at 3 weeks, that is not a few months, ofc we are assuming they follow the same pattern from WoD and Mop, as they havent given an exact release date. But there is a lot more content, World Quests, Class Quests, Norma/Heroic/Mythic (not Plus) Dungeons
    3) No flying? and? it doesn't make or break a game, its a convenience to be able tofly to "a to b" to kill big bad boss without aggroing 3 extra mobs, but its not that big of a deal
    4) Legion Alpha is significantly further along now than when WoD beta started. In previous expansions, they did pretty much ALL the testing in the beta phase, Core features, raid testing, class testing, questing, other end game, where as now they have already done most of that, by time Legion is in official beta they will only have to worry about tuning

    5) How is it worse for a casual player than a mythic raider/hardcor player? Mythic raiders can't access their content until after Launch, that includes Mythic+ as a blue stated currently M+ will release with the 1st raid. EVERYONE has World QUests, Class Quests, N/H/M Dungeons. Sounds like you only want to fly around in circles and do LFR..... There is a lot more content out there for a casual/solo player than that.
    Last edited by Lady Mormont; 2016-05-01 at 06:02 AM.

  13. #4993
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Sure, like "every other xpac ever".

    Except WoD was the first time it wasn't available once you hit max level.

    But don't let that fact stop you.
    You hit max lvl then you fly, but don't let that fact fuck you up

  14. #4994
    Quote Originally Posted by battosi08 View Post
    3) No flying? and? it doesn't make or break a game, its a convenience to be able tofly to "a to b" to kill big bad boss without aggroing 3 extra mobs, but its not that big of a deal.
    Just a point of contention: Thousands of pages and probably hundreds of thousands of posts, and god knows how many videos on the subject would tend to argue that it actually is kind of a big deal.

  15. #4995
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Just a point of contention: Thousands of pages and probably hundreds of thousands of posts, and god knows how many videos on the subject would tend to argue that it actually is kind of a big deal.
    No the post are mostly people bitching and whining on both ends of the spectrum, the majority of the people are bitching saying "no fly no buy" (basically come across as a toddler throwing a temper tantrum cause mommy didn't buy them a candy bar) and the other side of the spectrum are people bitching and saying "flying ruined the game and destroyed everything about it" when it didn't really destroy the game as when it was introduced it was a convenience, a perk. I'm terribly neutral on this issues as flying itself is not a big a deal when it comes to the accessibility of the game, as you can see all content without a flyer. The only thing a flyer does is get you from point a to point b faster.

  16. #4996
    Quote Originally Posted by yogsohot View Post
    You hit max lvl then you fly, but don't let that fact fuck you up
    Which is not what you said (and I replied to). But hey, I guess it hard to keep track when you don't really care about the topic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by battosi08 View Post
    The only thing a flyer does is get you from point a to point b faster.
    Which is where you, and Blizzard, are wrong.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  17. #4997
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Which is not what you said (and I replied to). But hey, I guess it hard to keep track when you don't really care about the topic.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Which is where you, and Blizzard, are wrong.
    Please elaborate, what does flying do other than let you travel from point A to Point B faster? What content does it let you see that you otherwise cant? There are only 3 things in this game I can think of that flying lets you do, that if you did not have a flyer you could not do, at that is access elemental plateau in TBC Nagrand, access TK and its dungeons and 2 TBC Dailies (Skettis and Orgillia). Anything else that "requires" flying is provided for you (IE Icecrown and Storm Peaks). There is no content in this game (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) other than the aforementioned where flying is absolutely required and can not be completed otherwise. Therefore, the only purpose of flying now, is for the convenience of traveling from point A to Point B in a safe and more efficient way.
    Last edited by Lady Mormont; 2016-05-01 at 10:18 AM.

  18. #4998
    Quote Originally Posted by battosi08 View Post
    Please elaborate, what does flying do other than let you travel from point A to Point B faster? What content does it let you see that you otherwise cant? There is only 2 things in this game I can think of that flying lets you do, that if you did not have a flyer you could not do, at that is access elemental plateau in TBC Nagrand, and access TK and its dungeons. Anything else that "requires" flying is provided for you (IE Icecrown and Storm Peaks). There is no content in this game (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) other than the aforementioned where flying is absolutely required and can not be completed otherwise. Therefore, the only purpose of flying now, is for the convenience of traveling from point A to Point B in a safe and more efficient way.
    There's this little-known concept called "fun". And flying enhances my enjoyment of the game.

    But these days it's all about "content" and how efficiently you can complete it, so I get that I'm probably the one who's wrong.
    (Hint: I'm not really the one who's wrong)
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  19. #4999
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    There's this little-known concept called "fun". And flying enhances my enjoyment of the game.

    But these days it's all about "content" and how efficiently you can complete it, so I get that I'm probably the one who's wrong.
    (Hint: I'm not really the one who's wrong)
    You aren't wrong, but you're not right either. What you find fun is merely your opinion, just like what I find fun and what I enjoy is just my opinion. But tell me, as I am genuinely curious, how does it enhance your enjoyment of the game, what do you use flying for if not for the added convenience of faster travel.

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy flying, but I also enjoy not flying. But flying is mostly an added convenience for travel, hardly anything more.
    Last edited by Lady Mormont; 2016-05-01 at 10:33 AM.

  20. #5000
    Quote Originally Posted by battosi08 View Post
    You aren't wrong, but you're not right either. What you find fun is merely your opinion, just like what I find fun and what I enjoy is just my opinion. But tell me, as I am genuinely curious, how does it enhance your enjoyment of the game, what do you use flying for if not for the added convenience of faster travel.
    Why do people all over the world do things that I find mind-numbingly boring? Because fun is subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by battosi08 View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy flying, but I also enjoy not flying.
    And what's wrong with being able to do both?

    Quote Originally Posted by battosi08 View Post
    But flying is mostly an added convenience for travel, hardly anything more.
    Because Blizzard refuses to treat it as anything else.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

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