Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Uurdz]

Sigh. Once again this fallacy of, "Hey subs declined during a period where X thing was introduced, so clearly it was because of X!" I just love how everybody always pretends that the thing they hate is the reason why subs declined.

Pay no mind to the fact that the game was 5+ years old.

Sigh. Once again this fallacy of "Game is [X] years old, of course it was going to die/lose subs"

[Wolfheart9]

Sigh. Once again this fallacy of "Game is [X] years old, of course it was going to die/lose subs"

It is something that every game has done... Ever... Since the dawn of gaming. It's not an unreasonable assumption.

[kenoathcarn]

Yeah, I get that. That doesn't mean that current mythic doesn't take time or effort to clear and leaves players with a great sense of accomplishment any less than it did back in the day. I might not need to spend weeks and weeks just to enter a raid anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't work my butt off the same as a vanilla player did in killing the bosses.

As a mythic raider, I absolutely hate the current gear progression. I farm normal/heroic to get pre-mythic bis, I then farm mythic to get a slightly higher stat version of my current gear, exact same stats on every piece, same trinkets etc.

Difficulty goes hand in hand with reward, and the rewards you get from mythic raiding don't justify its existence.

Outside of the 1 month race at the start, no one cares anymore your new goal becomes getting ranks on WarcraftLogs, your now farming gear just so when the new patch comes out you can farm more gear while you wait 6-12 months for the next 1 month race.

for me personally there is nothing to do in the game anymore outside of farming the raid for a few hours once a week.

this isn't to say that the old model of raiding was perfect either but at least there was more to the game then just raiding, i remember playing for 12 hours a day and it just wasn't enough, it didn't matter how hardcore you were there was always something to do.

I'm also not saying that the game isn't enjoyable whatsoever either, its simply that it doesn't last long enough, its not because people consume it to fast, its because the current game design allows it to be consumed far to fast.

I feel cheated because i used to pay 15/mo and get so much more from my money because the pace of the game was slowed down so much more then it is today.

[Uurdz]

It is something that every game has done... Ever... Since the dawn of gaming. It's not an unreasonable assumption.

All things must die, true, but you're wanting to explain the reason for the game losing subs as its natural age progression but it's not a linear decline.
There is no evidence to support a comparable game life cycle graph for WoW.

Using it to explain the games decline in lieu of identifying changes in game play is just as bad as saying [X] feature killed WoW.

[KrazyK923]

Sigh. Once again this fallacy of "Game is [X] years old, of course it was going to die/lose subs"

I never said that was the reason. I merely introduced another possibility of why that could be happening.

Product lifecycles ARE a thing, though.

So it's a fallacy to assume the reason why subs started losing in Cataclysm is because of X or Y reason. Or because the game is old. Nobody knows. So it's really shifty to pretend the reason is because of the specific thing you don't like.

- - - Updated - - -

Eh, it's the usual argument that says you have to get something that makes you seem special to others, not feel special that you did something far less people did. Archie mythic so far is arguably the hardest boss ever to be put in the game on death to kill ratio, but somehow that's less of a reason to feel awesome at what you do because you can't wag your epeen at someone because your gear doesn't have a unique model.

Really glad I don't need the adoration of others to feel what I did was awesome and celebrate it with my friends.

What's funny is that people used to look at those who were clearing most of Naxx in Vanilla as pretentious assholes if they ran around going, "I'M IMPORTANT ADORE ME!" It's funny because the only people I saw making the argument of 'But it's a prestigious thing!' were the ones running around going, "look how important I am." And apparently legacy server people latched onto that meme and tried to make it legit.

If I would have went around going, "Hey everybody, I'm so special because I'm one of the two people who can make the Flarecore set!" people would (rightly so) tell me to shut the hell up and that I was an obnoxious twat.

[Wolfheart9]

I never said that was the reason. I merely introduced another possibility of why that could be happening.

Product lifecycles ARE a thing, though.

So it's a fallacy to assume the reason why subs started losing in Cataclysm is because of X or Y reason. Or because the game is old. Nobody knows. So it's really shifty to pretend the reason is because of the specific thing you don't like.

- - - Updated - - -



What's funny is that people used to look at those who were clearing most of Naxx in Vanilla as pretentious assholes if they ran around going, "I'M IMPORTANT ADORE ME!" It's funny because the only people I saw making the argument of 'But it's a prestigious thing!' were the ones running around going, "look how important I am." And apparently legacy server people latched onto that meme and tried to make it legit.

If I would have went around going, "Hey everybody, I'm so special because I'm one of the two people who can make the Flarecore set!" people would (rightly so) tell me to shut the hell up and that I was an obnoxious twat.

Yea, but people remember the old days differently from person to person. *shrugs* Either way we'll see what this announcement thing is tomorrow, but for now I'm going to bed. Behave yourselves.

[huehuehue]

Eh, it's the usual argument that says you have to get something that makes you seem special to others, not feel special that you did something far less people did. Archie mythic so far is arguably the hardest boss ever to be put in the game on death to kill ratio, but somehow that's less of a reason to feel awesome at what you do because you can't wag your epeen at someone because your gear doesn't have a unique model.

Really glad I don't need the adoration of others to feel what I did was awesome and celebrate it with my friends.

ya what greed. how dare they also want more than a different armor color or glow for substantially more time/skill invested. we're above those guys up on this high horse. hmph

[Omians]

There are pop culture references, and then there's fucking CSI: Westfall.

err ya point taken lol

[MoanaLisa]

I stand out just fine by not being a douche and doing raid content many others aren't able to get without doing a purchase. Stand out by being part of the Friendship Moose movement and helping others out. I feel plenty good about that, don't need people slobbing my nob to feel that.

Yeah, being nice in the game (or here) and treating people as human beings is enough to make anyone stand out at this point.

I could swear that I read something somewhere that they were meeting this weekend. Apparently I was mistaken but I think you've got the jist of it. They've talked and agreed to something. We'll know soon enough I reckon.

[Rafoel]

There is a certain phenomena regarding vanilla realms.

I decided to post this wall of text here - if you don't want to read, don't.

The point is I'm currently unsubbed. While I'm unable to point out a specific feature in WoD that made me quit at the beginning of it, the game surely stopped being enjoyable to me after 9 years of playing. I thought it was because of simply getting bored, or just my changing life situation. Whatever. I moved on.

Recently, however, with all this noise about Nostalrius, I decided to give a private vanilla server a go. I leveled my first char in BC, I never actually played vanilla, so I thought it would be nice to experience the only version of the game I never saw.

I see one thing above all - every single change that Blizzard made to the game since then was for the good of it.

- Why do I need to spend 80% time of quest running from point A to B?
- Why do I have to read the quest text 10 times to actually have a clue where I should go?
- What's the actual point of weapon skills?
- Why is the droprate of heads from raptors below 50%?
- Why am I unable to use a simple search tool to find people wanting to go for a dungeon instead of spamming chat together with 100 other people?
- Why is it possible to enter the queue for battleground only from specific points in capital city, when there isn't even a physical portal?

And don't even mention graphics. It's uncomparable. Old areas are dull and empty in comparison to those from WoD or Legion. Spell effects are primitive and all look almost the same. There are only a few mounts to choose from. Very limited amount of companions. Almost 0 for-fun items.

And finally, for the light of Elune, how can grab-and-gather quests even remotely come close to the great experience of scenarios, interactive terrain and extremely sophisticated quests we know from WoD, or earlier MoP?

All points were made. The one is left though - I'm currently playing on such much-worse-than-live vanilla private server, and I'm having fun. And fun isn't from nostalgia, as I never played original vanilla in the first place.

What's even more incredible, my own younger brother, a complete casual, whose experience with WoW came to leveling a character, playing some battlegrounds and ultimately some arenas, but never even stepping in raid, or most dungeons for that case...

Saw me playing vanilla and asked how to install it. And he is playing it now too, and currently starting to join groups for low-level dungeons, while for years he didn't bother to queue for much better dungeons on live servers. Actually, I admit, he seems more passionate than me. Passionate for 12-year-old game.

Why is he doing it? Why am I doing it?

I think Blizzard and players fell into trap long time ago. Some of you surely used to spend vacations in the mountains. Mountains stay the same, yet people keep visiting them every year. To climb the same path over and over again. But what if I asked you..

- Do you remember that horrible part of otherwise wonderful path, what if I could remove it to make your climbing experience even better?
- Sound great. Do it.
- Also, you surely prefer paths with great views than those where you see nothing but rocks on both sides of path?
- Surely.
- Then paths have great views all the time now. Have fun.
- Thanks. Now as I think about it, could you make it impossible to rain when I climb. Very frustrating to come back wet.
- Done.
- And what's the point of this super-steep part when we also have a kilometre of flat road afterwards?
- Ok, we removed the extreme elements of path to make it more friendly.
- Man, this path is so long and boring, can't you make the climbing faster?
- No problem. The path is now 1/3 as long.
- Why am I actually climbing this? I could just take a lift to take me on top of the mountain.
- We don't want to remove the mountain from the experience of new climbers, but we can make you an instant transportation to top available after you climb it once.
- Sounds nice.

And nobody came back to climb the path ever again. A few used the instant transportation option, but they got bored fast. However, whenever somebody mentioned changing the mountain to its original version, they protested:

You crazy? Why would we make this nice path harder and less enjoyable on purpose? And why do you want to force ME to climb it by removing instant transportation option? I'm not forbidding you to climb the mountain yourself!

Well, I don't know. If there is a snack bard with 1000 tourists of top of Mount Everest, everybody would rather join them than force themselves to climb the once great mountain. For a while. Later, they would move somewhere else.

[Triks]

- Why do I need to spend 80% time of quest running from point A to B?

To make you take in the world, grind some mobs, talk with others and give you the motivation to grind out the gold for a mount come level 40.

- Why do I have to read the quest text 10 times to actually have a clue where I should go?

Yes, why should you interact with NPCs and players in this RPG GAME. Go and play some Morrowind or Baldur's Gate and you will see what I mean.

- What's the actual point of weapon skills?

It's an RPG game - deal with it. It also made loot distribution among mele classes less of a hassle since the guys with the maxed out skill and spec would get priority.

- Why is the droprate of heads from raptors below 50%?

That was BS agreed.

- Why am I unable to use a simple search tool to find people wanting to go for a dungeon instead of spamming chat together with 100 other people?

Dungeons were supposed to be rare and hence they dropped RARE QUALITY ITEMS. In addition investing time in finding people meant that you would also invest the time needed to finish it instead of leaving after a wipe. It also made you find friends, join guilds and participate in the community in this MMO.

- Why is it possible to enter the queue for battleground only from specific points in capital city, when there isn't even a physical portal?

The battlemasters were added later. Originally we had to go to specific locations which I actually preferred. It meant that I was going to speak with other people and maybe learn something about the strategy or which Horde player was especially dangerous.

[Roar-Powah]

https://twitter.com/NostalBegins/sta...88226870202369

[Deleted]

There is a certain phenomena regarding vanilla realms.

I decided to post this wall of text here - if you don't want to read, don't.

The point is I'm currently unsubbed. While I'm unable to point out a specific feature in WoD that made me quit at the beginning of it, the game surely stopped being enjoyable to me after 9 years of playing. I thought it was because of simply getting bored, or just my changing life situation. Whatever. I moved on.

Recently, however, with all this noise about Nostalrius, I decided to give a private vanilla server a go. I leveled my first char in BC, I never actually played vanilla, so I thought it would be nice to experience the only version of the game I never saw.

I see one thing above all - every single change that Blizzard made to the game since then was for the good of it.

- Why do I need to spend 80% time of quest running from point A to B?
- Why do I have to read the quest text 10 times to actually have a clue where I should go?
- What's the actual point of weapon skills?
- Why is the droprate of heads from raptors below 50%?
- Why am I unable to use a simple search tool to find people wanting to go for a dungeon instead of spamming chat together with 100 other people?
- Why is it possible to enter the queue for battleground only from specific points in capital city, when there isn't even a physical portal?

And don't even mention graphics. It's uncomparable. Old areas are dull and empty in comparison to those from WoD or Legion. Spell effects are primitive and all look almost the same. There are only a few mounts to choose from. Very limited amount of companions. Almost 0 for-fun items.

And finally, for the light of Elune, how can grab-and-gather quests even remotely come close to the great experience of scenarios, interactive terrain and extremely sophisticated quests we know from WoD, or earlier MoP?

All points were made. The one is left though - I'm currently playing on such much-worse-than-live vanilla private server, and I'm having fun. And fun isn't from nostalgia, as I never played original vanilla in the first place.

What's even more incredible, my own younger brother, a complete casual, whose experience with WoW came to leveling a character, playing some battlegrounds and ultimately some arenas, but never even stepping in raid, or most dungeons for that case...

Saw me playing vanilla and asked how to install it. And he is playing it now too, and currently starting to join groups for low-level dungeons, while for years he didn't bother to queue for much better dungeons on live servers. Actually, I admit, he seems more passionate than me. Passionate for 12-year-old game.

Why is he doing it? Why am I doing it?

I think Blizzard and players fell into trap long time ago. Some of you surely used to spend vacations in the mountains. Mountains stay the same, yet people keep visiting them every year. To climb the same path over and over again. But what if I asked you..

- Do you remember that horrible part of otherwise wonderful path, what if I could remove it to make your climbing experience even better?
- Sound great. Do it.
- Also, you surely prefer paths with great views than those where you see nothing but rocks on both sides of path?
- Surely.
- Then paths have great views all the time now. Have fun.
- Thanks. Now as I think about it, could you make it impossible to rain when I climb. Very frustrating to come back wet.
- Done.
- And what's the point of this super-steep part when we also have a kilometre of flat road afterwards?
- Ok, we removed the extreme elements of path to make it more friendly.
- Man, this path is so long and boring, can't you make the climbing faster?
- No problem. The path is now 1/3 as long.
- Why am I actually climbing this? I could just take a lift to take me on top of the mountain.
- We don't want to remove the mountain from the experience of new climbers, but we can make you an instant transportation to top available after you climb it once.
- Sounds nice.

And nobody came back to climb the path ever again. A few used the instant transportation option, but they got bored fast. However, whenever somebody mentioned changing the mountain to its original version, they protested:

You crazy? Why would we make this nice path harder and less enjoyable on purpose? And why do you want to force ME to climb it by removing instant transportation option? I'm not forbidding you to climb the mountain yourself!

Well, I don't know. If there is a snack bard with 1000 tourists of top of Mount Everest, everybody would rather join them than force themselves to climb the once great mountain. For a while. Later, they would move somewhere else.

really nice post

[Glaziola]

https://twitter.com/NostalBegins/sta...88226870202369

The hype is real.

[AeneasBK]

And you know what really grinds my gears. People who quote massive posts just to write "Good post" at the end. Edit it down, jeez.

[kary]

As a mythic raider, I absolutely hate the current gear progression. I farm normal/heroic to get pre-mythic bis, I then farm mythic to get a slightly higher stat version of my current gear, exact same stats on every piece, same trinkets etc.

Difficulty goes hand in hand with reward, and the rewards you get from mythic raiding don't justify its existence.

Outside of the 1 month race at the start, no one cares anymore your new goal becomes getting ranks on WarcraftLogs, your now farming gear just so when the new patch comes out you can farm more gear while you wait 6-12 months for the next 1 month race.

for me personally there is nothing to do in the game anymore outside of farming the raid for a few hours once a week.

this isn't to say that the old model of raiding was perfect either but at least there was more to the game then just raiding, i remember playing for 12 hours a day and it just wasn't enough, it didn't matter how hardcore you were there was always something to do.

I'm also not saying that the game isn't enjoyable whatsoever either, its simply that it doesn't last long enough, its not because people consume it to fast, its because the current game design allows it to be consumed far to fast.

I feel cheated because i used to pay 15/mo and get so much more from my money because the pace of the game was slowed down so much more then it is today.

Dunno, if you were good on consumables and repair gold you could log out for the week. You did things with people because you wanted to, if you want to do things with people you still can.
I mean it's like.... your habits change because you changed them. If you used to pvp after/between raids in vanilla, you can still do it now. You may not want to, but people cry like things have been removed apart from obnoxious time consuming pseudo grinds. If the commitment to a grind is what kept you logged in, well, my condolences. But as someone that raid logged for several expansions, current WoW is no different from before.

[Puzzony]

Dunno, if you were good on consumables and repair gold you could log out for the week. You did things with people because you wanted to, if you want to do things with people you still can.
I mean it's like.... your habits change because you changed them. If you used to pvp after/between raids in vanilla, you can still do it now. You may not want to, but people cry like things have been removed apart from obnoxious time consuming pseudo grinds. If the commitment to a grind is what kept you logged in, well, my condolences. But as someone that raid logged for several expansions, current WoW is no different from before.

That's the exact problem with WOD, it has became World of LoginToRaidCraft. I can safely assume that those millions who left the game left because they wanted more than log in once a week to kill 14 bosses.

[Deleted]

The hype is real.

Yeah, the hype surely is real. The idea behind it isnt.

And i expect blizzard to use the hype. To create PR. And not to make a wise decision.

[kary]

That's the exact problem with WOD, it has became World of LoginToRaidCraft. I can safely assume that those millions who left the game left because they wanted more than log in once a week to kill 14 bosses.

I raidlogged in TBC, WoTLK and Cata.
Raidlogging isn't a new phenomenon. Hell, most progression guilds are raidlog guilds past the initial rush.

[Puzzony]

I raidlogged in TBC, WoTLK and Cata.
Raidlogging isn't a new phenomenon. Hell, most progression guilds are raidlog guilds past the initial rush.

But they make up the minority of the playerbase, Blizzard should not have cater to them like they did. I understand that you are only raidlogging, if it is your biscout, let it be, but for example, during the previous xpacs (even in MoP), i was able to spend days playing the content, and had 10+ max lvl toons, but now i have only one and an alt that i leveled up from 90 beause one of my pals gave me 20 xp pots for the lols. The content is so thin it makes me sad every time i get reminded of it