Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[Tiberria]

Germination also has the issue that the extra Rejuvs do not interact with some talents and artifact traits as if they were 2 seperate Rejuvs. For example, Dreamwalker will only heal a target with 2xRejuvs twice. If you take Cultivation, you do not get 2 Cultivation stacks/bonus Cultivation healing from having 2 Rejuvs on a target. These factors actually reduce the value of having the second Rejuv over having an additional Rejuv on a unique target - probably to the point that they offset the mastery gain from having the second Rejuv.

It's just heavily dependent on damage patterns. Mathematically, you would need to have something like double Rejuv on 6-8 different targets at a time before the throughput gain from the extra mastery healing outweighs the gain from casting 1 CW every 30 seconds. CW is an extremely high throughput/high HPM cast, so it is definitely - mathematically at least - much closer to taking Germination in value than a lot of people think. It's just going to be all about whether you need to have double Rejuvs on targets or not and how often/how many of these you practically run with during a fight. If you want to focus heal a handful of targets at a time, Germination will win. If you want to kind of HoT blanket and AoE heal, CW will give you more value. If you run Cultivation, Germination is less valuable. I don't know that Prosperity is going to add enough value to pull ahead CW or Germination - even with 4 piece and SoTF. That's definitely the only situation where it's even a viable option, but I just don't know that even then it adds enough to lose the extra play style options CW and Germ give you.

[Torty]

I don't agree that Cultivation makes Germination less valuable. You can stack one additional hot on the target increasing the healing of both Rejuvs and Cultivation on top of that. That gives very strong targeted healing. Even 2 Germinations already provide more throughput than 1 CW, obviously at lower HPM. This talent alone can shift the stat priority very far in favor in Mastery, which also gives Cultivation and Spring Blossoms more value.

[Tiberria]

I don't agree that Cultivation makes Germination less valuable. You can stack one additional hot on the target increasing the healing of both Rejuvs and Cultivation on top of that. That gives very strong targeted healing. Even 2 Germinations already provide more throughput than 1 CW, obviously at lower HPM. This talent alone can shift the stat priority very far in favor in Mastery, which also gives Cultivation and Spring Blossoms more value.

Germination only buffs Cultivation by ~15% (this is probably about how high our mastery will be if we stack it). If you have 4 Rejuvs on 4 different targets, you get 400% of Cultivation's healing. If you have 4 Rejuvs on 2 targets with Germination, you only get 230% of Cultivation's healing. It's very clear that Cultivation's value is reduced by using a Germination driven healing style of stacking HoTs on to a few targets vs spreading them out over as many targets as possible, because the mastery healing buff doesn't come close to compensating for the second Rejuv not getting an additional Cultivation HoT applied.

Also, it isn't 2 Germinations vs 1 CW - that isn't a reasonable comparison, because you're going to be casting Rejuvs regardless of whether you have Germination or not. What you have to compare is whether the mastery gain from having 4 Rejuvs out on 2 different targets vs 4 Rejuvs out on 4 different targets exceeds the throughput gain from a CW cast every 30 seconds. Obviously, if there are only 2 targets taking damage or 2 targets taking damage that it matters to heal up, Germination will come out on top, but in a real fight where there are enough people to heal that Rejuv is reasonably effective whether you stack it on a few targets vs spread it out over many, I don't think that the mastery gain will exceed the extra throughput and HPM from one CW cast every 30 seconds - especially if you also factor in looping every second CW up with Flourish.

[Deleted]

Can anyone confirm if this is a toy or something, standing still as resto druid leaves leaves on ground? Weird.

[Nerxyrall]

Germination only buffs Cultivation by ~15% (this is probably about how high our mastery will be if we stack it). If you have 4 Rejuvs on 4 different targets, you get 400% of Cultivation's healing. If you have 4 Rejuvs on 2 targets with Germination, you only get 230% of Cultivation's healing. It's very clear that Cultivation's value is reduced by using a Germination driven healing style of stacking HoTs on to a few targets vs spreading them out over as many targets as possible, because the mastery healing buff doesn't come close to compensating for the second Rejuv not getting an additional Cultivation HoT applied.

Also, it isn't 2 Germinations vs 1 CW - that isn't a reasonable comparison, because you're going to be casting Rejuvs regardless of whether you have Germination or not. What you have to compare is whether the mastery gain from having 4 Rejuvs out on 2 different targets vs 4 Rejuvs out on 4 different targets exceeds the throughput gain from a CW cast every 30 seconds. Obviously, if there are only 2 targets taking damage or 2 targets taking damage that it matters to heal up, Germination will come out on top, but in a real fight where there are enough people to heal that Rejuv is reasonably effective whether you stack it on a few targets vs spread it out over many, I don't think that the mastery gain will exceed the extra throughput and HPM from one CW cast every 30 seconds - especially if you also factor in looping every second CW up with Flourish.

If there are enough targets to heal. I would rather douple rejuv low targets than spread my hots on relativly high hp targets. The question is which healing style (more focused or more spread) will be used in a given encounter.
But in a more "spread healing" i dont know if the burst healing of CW will see much use either.
In my experience CW will be good for a very few seconds, maybe half its duration and than other healers will have caught up. Flourish wont make that better. Especially while you can theoretically extend every second CW, dont know how pactical or feasible that will be.

Not disagreeing with you here really.
Only using theoretical numbers CW seems better, but in a "real" raid enviroment i could think that Germination brings more versatility, while less throughput if CW and "spread Healing" can be used effectivly.
We might be getting in a position where its really more about personal preference and thats a good thing in my opinion.

[Torty]

Germination only buffs Cultivation by ~15% (this is probably about how high our mastery will be if we stack it). If you have 4 Rejuvs on 4 different targets, you get 400% of Cultivation's healing. If you have 4 Rejuvs on 2 targets with Germination, you only get 230% of Cultivation's healing. It's very clear that Cultivation's value is reduced by using a Germination driven healing style of stacking HoTs on to a few targets vs spreading them out over as many targets as possible, because the mastery healing buff doesn't come close to compensating for the second Rejuv not getting an additional Cultivation HoT applied.

I had more Mastery while stacking Haste at 850 ilvl post stat nerf. These were my stats: Critical Strike 4415 17,61%, Haste 7954 24,47%, Mastery 4665 16,01%. I could've gotten 23% if I just switched Mastery and Haste around. It will be possible to hit 25% Mastery with 875 ilvl (I assume that would be full heroic + some mythic gear ilvl), if Mastery remains at 466 points per 1%. Skorpyron testing was done at 898 ilvl, you would definitely hit much higher values than 15% by that point, if you decide to stack. With your assumptions of each Rejuv proccing Cultivation, it becomes an absolultely best stat. There's no other one that comes even close to Mastery at 2 hots.

You completely discount the additional healing for each of the Rejuvs on the target when calculating total healing and assume that each Rejuv procs Cultivation. These are very big assumptions and missing some math. It's not really clear that Cultivation value is reduced by using Germination, because you can continue doing the same spread out hotting with Germination as you do without (duh), so in the worst case it's the same value for Cultivation alone.

Also, it isn't 2 Germinations vs 1 CW - that isn't a reasonable comparison, because you're going to be casting Rejuvs regardless of whether you have Germination or not. What you have to compare is whether the mastery gain from having 4 Rejuvs out on 2 different targets vs 4 Rejuvs out on 4 different targets exceeds the throughput gain from a CW cast every 30 seconds. Obviously, if there are only 2 targets taking damage or 2 targets taking damage that it matters to heal up, Germination will come out on top, but in a real fight where there are enough people to heal that Rejuv is reasonably effective whether you stack it on a few targets vs spread it out over many, I don't think that the mastery gain will exceed the extra throughput and HPM from one CW cast every 30 seconds - especially if you also factor in looping every second CW up with Flourish.

All your calculations are done with inherent negative bias towards Germination and you only mention the possibility of only few targets taking damage as if it almost never happens. You also double Rejuv tanks along with having other hots, which means that you need to add that additional Mastery healing value for each of the hots to Germination. I could easily get to 4 hots on melees on some fights (SB, Rj, Rj, WG) or even 5 on one of the tanks (LB, SB, Rj, Rj, Rg). That's without Cultivation proccing.

I've been using Germination heavily during the tests and it always had either roughly the same overhealing or lower overhealing than Rejuv, which means it provides more value as opposed to what you think it does. Almost every fight had some sort of debuff mechanic and tanks getting absolutely hammered. And when it didn't happen, there was no damage going out so I didn't even cast heals at that point.

Flourish won't be used every second CW. It gets more value from being used with WG. Raid damage doesn't always happen when cd is up. Using Flourish on CW is mathematically a mistake. If you are concerned about tank healing (which is when you should be considering CW), you shouldn't be taking Flourish. Both MoC and Stonebark are much better options for that. You are overhyping CW. I don't think it's that strong of a talent at all. With Mastery being as it is now, Germination easily outvalued it on each fight I've tested so far.

[Tiberria]

Flourish won't be used every second CW. It gets more value from being used with WG. Raid damage doesn't always happen when cd is up. Using Flourish on CW is mathematically a mistake. If you are concerned about tank healing (which is when you should be considering CW), you shouldn't be taking Flourish. Both MoC and Stonebark are much better options for that. You are overhyping CW. I don't think it's that strong of a talent at all. With Mastery being as it is now, Germination easily outvalued it on each fight I've tested so far.

You can easily cast CW, WG, Flourish and have enough time to extend both CW and WG before CW's HoT duration expires. It will be one less Rejuv that gets extended by Flourish, but +6 seconds CW is about 6x the healing of +6 seconds of Rejuv. If raid damage doesn't line up with CW's CD, you can always hold it back to use when there is damage going out and your want to use Flourish. You aren't going to be hitting Flourish every 60 seconds on CD for the same reasons anyway.

I strongly doubt Stonebark will ever be taken in a raid environment. It's basically a 5 man/CM talent. Fights are not going to be balanced around needing Ironbarks every 60 seconds when we are already the only healer with a <3 minute CD tank cooldown. If they aren't balanced/designed around needing it (and if they are - 2 Resto Druids would be mandatory?), then it's going to be a luxury and not something that will likely be worth losing close to 10% of your total throughput to take. Plus, if you math out the extra healing added by a 6 second CW Flourish extension every 60 seconds, in most cases it probably exceeds the extra damage reduction you gain from casting 1/3 more Ironbarks in a fight. Moment of Clarity very well good be a reasonable talent if mana longevity and more single target healing is what is needed, I can agree with that.

[theburned]

I strongly doubt Stonebark will ever be taken in a raid environment. It's basically a 5 man/CM talent. Fights are not going to be balanced around needing Ironbarks every 60 seconds when we are already the only healer with a <3 minute CD tank cooldown. If they aren't balanced/designed around needing it (and if they are - 2 Resto Druids would be mandatory?), then it's going to be a luxury and not something that will likely be worth losing close to 10% of your total throughput to take. Plus, if you math out the extra healing added by a 6 second CW Flourish extension every 60 seconds, in most cases it probably exceeds the extra damage reduction you gain from casting 1/3 more Ironbarks in a fight. Moment of Clarity very well good be a reasonable talent if mana longevity and more single target healing is what is needed, I can agree with that.

Now fights will never be balanced around needing them, but do remember that our toolkits are developed around fights, but strats however are developed around our toolkits, so even if a fight is balanced around having fewer external cooldowns, having more external cooldowns means you can do a strat like the one showed in the log, where we one tank it, rather than 2 tank it. Was it balanced around having 1 tank, no it wasn't, were we able to 1 tank it because of our toolkits allowed us to, yes. It might not be the best example, but it illustrates my point.

Nevertheless it does not mean stonebark is in a good spot, but the arguements that "we will not be required to have stonebark on 1 min cd" does not hold.

Also fine-tuning has yet to come and I believe numbers can help out this talent a lot, even though I am not entierly convinced it is such a bad talent in the first place.

[stormgust]

Now fights will never be balanced around needing them, but do remember that our toolkits are developed around fights, but strats however are developed around our toolkits, so even if a fight is balanced around having fewer external cooldowns, having more external cooldowns means you can do a strat like the one showed in the log, where we one tank it, rather than 2 tank it.

Blizzard doesn't want talent/abilities to negate entire encounter mechanics. You can fully expect tuning to take care of it, i.e. nerfs to both Ironbark resp. Stonebark, at which point Stonebark will be significantly worse than it already is, so you just don't bother with ever picking it up. At least one encounter already has shown how this talent stands out, and hopefully - instead of just nerfing it (i.e. dead talent ...), they redesign it to be actually useable. Additionally, there's this entire ongoing tank/encounter tuning under the new paradigm, which questions the neccesity of those talents to begin with, i.e. why pick Stonebark, if you actually have time enough to heal -> MoC is more flexible, and probably also more throughput across the board .

As for CW vs. Germination: I'm with Torty here, Tiberria is heavily biased towards CW. One shouldn't ignore the healing occuring on the germination target in the 24s where do not have an additional CW HoT, especially if Blizzard get's to their target for tank damage during the tuning phase (that's a big if though). That's already for single target role of those two abilities, and doesn't yet include the flexibility benefit of Germination, i.e. further targets may be optimal for double Reju Germination. Then there's also the thing, that you may not even be able to use CW to it's fullest on CD, but rather 45-60s apart (and furthermore, would you not just end up replacing swiftmend here?)

As for MoC vs. Flourish: If you can use flourish close to CD (i.e. on WG with high efficiency), pick the later, otherwise the former. Stonebark, as I said above, under proper tuning should neither be needed, nor perform close to those two options.

[Kaeth]

Germination also has the issue that the extra Rejuvs do not interact with some talents and artifact traits as if they were 2 seperate Rejuvs.

I get that we won't receive double the effect from Rejuvenation-based procs and effects with Germination, but I have a curious question for folks in Alpha: if you apply Germination to a target, and your original Rejuvenation wears off, will the Germination HoT -- without the regular Rejuvenation HoT -- still interact with Dreamwalker, proc Cultivation, etc.?

In other words, for all intents and purposes, is the Germination HoT treated just like Rejuvenation itself, and the limitation on Rejuvenation-based effects is merely that you can't get more than one at a time?

[Koor]

I get that we won't receive double the effect from Rejuvenation-based procs and effects with Germination, but I have a curious question for folks in Alpha: if you apply Germination to a target, and your original Rejuvenation wears off, will the Germination HoT -- without the regular Rejuvenation HoT -- still interact with Dreamwalker, proc Cultivation, etc.?

Yes, even if only germination is on the target without rejuvenation, it can still proc cultivation and dreamwalker.

[Torty]

You can easily cast CW, WG, Flourish and have enough time to extend both CW and WG before CW's HoT duration expires. It will be one less Rejuv that gets extended by Flourish, but +6 seconds CW is about 6x the healing of +6 seconds of Rejuv. If raid damage doesn't line up with CW's CD, you can always hold it back to use when there is damage going out and your want to use Flourish. You aren't going to be hitting Flourish every 60 seconds on CD for the same reasons anyway.

You can do a lot of things, the question is how useable that is. You need to decide whether you use CW on cd, Flourish on cd and time WG with them or play Flourish around raid damage. The first case is inefficient and second reduces the value of CW by a huge amount.

Too much planning for mediocre benefit at best, probably a throughput loss without perfect planning and timings on the fight. Will be taking Germination 100% of the time unless encounter has specific dot mechanic that has 30sec to 1min cd on one target. Otherwise Germination dumpsters CW, because you can focus it more often and on more people. I'm yet to see a fight with 1 dot.

I strongly doubt Stonebark will ever be taken in a raid environment. It's basically a 5 man/CM talent. Fights are not going to be balanced around needing Ironbarks every 60 seconds when we are already the only healer with a <3 minute CD tank cooldown. If they aren't balanced/designed around needing it (and if they are - 2 Resto Druids would be mandatory?), then it's going to be a luxury and not something that will likely be worth losing close to 10% of your total throughput to take. Plus, if you math out the extra healing added by a 6 second CW Flourish extension every 60 seconds, in most cases it probably exceeds the extra damage reduction you gain from casting 1/3 more Ironbarks in a fight. Moment of Clarity very well good be a reasonable talent if mana longevity and more single target healing is what is needed, I can agree with that.

I would've taken stonebark for Mannoroth to be selfreliable on dispells. I don't know where you got 10% throughput, neither Flourish nor MoC provide nearly as much. Each Flourish at best provides 2-3 full rejuvs, 0,8-0,9 wg, 5-6 cultivations and 5-6 SBs worth of healing. That's really not 10% of my healing for 1 minute, not even close. I cast about 17-19 Rejuvs per minute, 1,2-1,4 WGs, there's zero benefit from extending SBs since you are likely extending them with your Efflo anyway unless there's the entirety of your raid standing in Efflo, and Cultivations are also self refreshed by Rejuvs anyway and if they aren't, they overheal. The real benefit is likely closer to 5% at best for Flourish, probably closer to 2-4% depending on how often you use it. MoC provides like 4-5 additional Regrowths per minute at 100% uptime? Probably also 2-3% throughput increase at best, maybe a bit higher if you count in Mastery benefit and the fact that it goes into the tanks most of the time.

[theburned]

Blizzard doesn't want talent/abilities to negate entire encounter mechanics. You can fully expect tuning to take care of it, i.e. nerfs to both Ironbark resp. Stonebark, at which point Stonebark will be significantly worse than it already is, so you just don't bother with ever picking it up. At least one encounter already has shown how this talent stands out, and hopefully - instead of just nerfing it (i.e. dead talent ...), they redesign it to be actually useable. Additionally, there's this entire ongoing tank/encounter tuning under the new paradigm, which questions the neccesity of those talents to begin with, i.e. why pick Stonebark, if you actually have time enough to heal -> MoC is more flexible, and probably also more throughput across the board .

Stonebark does not negate any abilities entierly, it just makes an already quite available cd, 50% more available, and gives you some added healing benefit towards that target.

Also "Blizzard doesn't want talents/abilities to negate encounter mechanics." Every mythic raider has seen too many mechanics entierly negated by hunters/mages too many times to believe that they will follow through with this. And point out a single fight where Ironbark would ever let you negate entire mechanics, cause I can't think of a single fight where that would be the case, nor a mechanic.

[Torty]

They specifically design Mythic bosses around players being able to negate some of the mechanics with their abilities. Are you guys fucking high? That's supposed to be the hard part of Mythic content, when you don't just use your rotational abilities, but also push a couple extra buttons. If they didn't, it wouldn't be possible to immune Curses on Mannoroth, BoP debuffs on Kilrogg, Evanesce chains on Xhul, cheat death black holes on Xhul, mass grip imps on Manno, sacrifice tanks on Archimonde. That's a list just from one instance. Want me to do all tiers? I got a lot of time.

[stormgust]

They specifically design Mythic bosses around players being able to negate some of the mechanics with their abilities. Are you guys fucking high?

Just able to see the world not in just black and white.

That's supposed to be the hard part of Mythic content, when you don't just use your rotational abilities, but also push a couple extra buttons. If they didn't, it wouldn't be possible to immune Curses on Mannoroth, BoP debuffs on Kilrogg, Evanesce chains on Xhul, cheat death black holes on Xhul, mass grip imps on Manno, sacrifice tanks on Archimonde. That's a list just from one instance. Want me to do all tiers? I got a lot of time.

So, in your opinion, why did they decide to nerf all the abilities you listed for Legion?

[theburned]

So, in your opinion, why did they decide to nerf all the abilities you listed for Legion?

Quite simply because they went into mythic with the design intent that certain fights should have certain classes for certain fights, wasn't really a super good design now, was it? Always the same classes good for the same stuff (dks, mages, hunters, disc priest, paladins.) It just restricts your roster to much, so I think its fairly safe to assume they moved away from this design.

But feign death still seems to be able to just negate mechanics, a mage still has some really strong defensive toolkit.

In the end though you seem to avoid the entire topic, it's not about toolkits negating mechanics, it's about stonebark/ironbark.... You seem to be of the very weird assumption that it will ever be able to flat out negate mechanics, please tell me how?

[Tiberria]

Yeah, comparing Stonebark/Ironbark to stuff like immuning Manno curses or solo soaking Xhul black holes is a stretch at best. Those abilities totally trivialize entire raid mechanics with no downside. All Ironbark does is put a 26% damage reduction effect on someone. Being able to do that 1/3 more often is highly unlikely to result in anything close to the amount of player power/mechanics cheesing of the examples that Torty is comparing it too. The tank/player is still going to need to be able to survive 74% of the damage with Ironbark up instead of 100%. It's not like it's going to let them solo soak some ridiculous 1 shot mechanic or anything of the sort.

It also isn't like it makes Ironbark anything out of this world amazing - it just lets you use it 1/3 more often. We already have 1 minute Ironbark baseline on live (granted at 20% instead of 26%), and it isn't like it's gamebreaking or anything.

[theburned]

Yeah, comparing Stonebark/Ironbark to stuff like immuning Manno curses or solo soaking Xhul black holes is a stretch at best. Those abilities totally trivialize entire raid mechanics with no downside. All Ironbark does is put a 26% damage reduction effect on someone. Being able to do that 1/3 more often is highly unlikely to result in anything close to the amount of player power/mechanics cheesing of the examples that Torty is comparing it too. The tank/player is still going to need to be able to survive 74% of the damage with Ironbark up instead of 100%. It's not like it's going to let them solo soak some ridiculous 1 shot mechanic or anything of the sort.

It also isn't like it makes Ironbark anything out of this world amazing - it just lets you use it 1/3 more often. We already have 1 minute Ironbark baseline on live (granted at 20% instead of 26%), and it isn't like it's gamebreaking or anything.

Now it's stormgust making the assumption that it will negate anything. Torty is for some reason trying to counter the arguement that blizzard is or isn't removing abilities that negate mechanics, which has very little to do with this discussion.

It doesnt make ironbark out of this world amazing, nevertheless it makes it quite a lot better, also its 50% more often.

I still feel like the talent could see some love, but far from so weak that you seem to consider it. Imagine if you give something like prosperity add a charge to ironbark aswell.. now based on the assumption that they change the ridiculous 4p already.

[stormgust]

Now it's stormgust making the assumption that it will negate anything. Torty is for some reason trying to counter the arguement that blizzard is or isn't removing abilities that negate mechanics, which has very little to do with this discussion.

Negating was probably too strong a word (or wrong to adequately describe what I wanted to say). Anyway, I didn't even assume that stonebark will negate anything, my entire argument was, that under proper tuning (you won't be able to pull it off, or it's significantly riskier than a standard two tank strat), it will never be used, because it doesn't really do anything.

[Thoughtful Trolli]

they only had monk healers in those speed run videos so if you're resto druid you're fucking doing it wrong losers